PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Hello,

Just a question before taking the plunge and spending a fair bit on a new PC.
Do Mac users have an easier time of things? Do you have problems like "PCI capacity reached" (even though you are not using that much in the way of resources)?
Do you have to worry about getting the right motherboard, PC case, disk drive, graphic card etc.....?
Do you have a smoother running, more efficient system amd can get on with the business at hand without having to tweak stuff too much?
Because if you do, then I might go down the MAC route. I read about so many hassles PC users seem to have and I have one that I mentioned above regarding PCI capacity. Plus, I'll be able to keep up with future Logic developments.
But then are there many Mac users who actually use Pulsar? I want to keep using Pulsar and I have spent too much on Pulsar to abandon it. Anyway, I do love my Pulsar cards.
OK, I know that there may be a problem with OS X, but I would be happy to use OS 9 as long as everything worked smoothly.
Can anyone shed some light please before I take the plunge?

Thanks in advance for your response(s)

Ufff, this is a taugh one!

Well, i think nowadays there are no much differences in performance, nevertheless, everybody in the world knows that MACs are more stable than PCs. But... if you know how to get the most out of your Win XP, there is nothing a MAC can do much better.

I guess the main problem is money, cos the same power for a PC than for a MAC, it´s quite diffferent. I mean, MACs are much more expensive than Win PCs, nevertheless, for little more performance. Win PCs are all the time improving their onw way, and you can choose what you want while with MAC your choices are rather short.

The same comes with Software, there are much less MAC software than Win ones, and they tend to be cheaper, at least this happens in Spanish packages.

This is the most I can say myself cos I have never owned a MAC myself. I have used Win PCs for too long now, and would not go MAC just cos I´m too accostumed to Win PCs.

Sorry, I know this is not very helpfull, but I guess some MAC deffenders will come behind to tell you more...

I think I heard that the current machines can't use OS9.. only OSX. I could very well be wrong however.

In any case, if you are considering a mac, it would be very wise to wait until the G5 machines come out, which are a lot faster than the current machines.

peace

mmmmmmm, some quick thoughts...

the new macs can't run os9.x, just osX. so you'll have to find yourself a second hand machine, or wait for CW to release SFP for OSX. shame on you apple!!!!

i have a G3 desktop and a toshiba pc laptop. the mac crashes a few times every month, and i put the blame on cubase... i think it's a horrible program. the laptop runs win98/ableton live/hopefully soon pulsars in magma. the laptop hasn't crashed on me ONCE. really, not a single crash so far...

pci messages on the mac... i have three pulsars in the machine, so a completely hassle free performance is out of the question i guess... there's always some device spread over different dsp's/cards... or am i talking BS here? i do get the pci limit reached message once in a while, not that often though...

it's a real nice machine, and it's dead easy to get things up and running. i practically did all configuration by myself with email guidance from some nice folks here on Z.
atomic did the laptop, and i tried to watch and learn, but there's too much things needed to be done for my tiny brain. adding stuff like HD, ram,... couldn't be easier, plug'n'play in the true sense...

at the moment, i'm not realy sure what to do... practically all projects on the mac have been finished, and two pulsars will be moved to the magma/laptop. should i sell the mac, or keep it as a recording machine, will i get some money for this old beast?

ha well, macs are nice and easy, but they're machines as well, and expensive, and they atract stupid folks that care more for looks and prestige. pc's are ugly, but they have the power...

not of much help, hehe

OK folks, please forgive me, someone has to do this, and I'm afraid I'm that one.
Coz highly appreciated friends here like Astroman, Samplaire, and others are too wise for it to do
I'm not evoking a pc versus mac dispute, but Weirdo2* in fact is asking for some passionated words from a regulary mac user.
So let me be the vicious dog, but without any war intentions

Some thoughts, some of them mentioned already by former posts above:

1. with a mac you can be sure about the quality of the hardware and the adjustment to each other: everything is tuned out.
with a pc you can have this too of course, but it's up to you to find out about the right one.

2. the former point is extremely important if you have a problem and can't find the reason.
On a mac it's mutch easier to isolate the problem.
Check out the problem forum, you can sometimes smell the despair of people who even don't know if it's a hardware or a software problem (shivers on my back... )

Sure, you'll get the best possible help in the world here, but I prefer making music.

3. I think I may say here easily that Mac OS is more user friendly than windows, even if it's XP.
BIOS settings? shivers.
ACPI layer (W.98)? shivers.
PCI capacity limits? shivers.
Uninstall problems? shivers.
IRQ problems? shivers.
Hm I'm confusing hard and software I think, but yes I'm stupid

There are millions of (perfect) pc's, while there are just a few mac (one could say there's just one mac).
I see this as an tremendous advantage:
I know whom or what to blame if there's a problem.

4. PC's are faster, much faster, if you just look at clockrates.
But still you can perfectly make music on a not so new G4 with 733 MHz, like I do.
Even with lotsa VST fx and VST-i's.
(I don't use any CW synth's, so I do most heavy stuff in Cubase!).

The question is not who arrives first, but if you can arrive.
In other words: can you make the music you wanne make without to much CPU limits.
I can.

5. PC's are cheaper, may be much cheaper (tho I must say the macs are very lowered in price shortly).
This can be an important argument.

I hope Nestor, who build the best pc of the world is willingly to tell us (in secret ) the total costs of it.
It could be that the difference with a new mac is not that much anymore.
If you could buy his 'arrangement'
as a ready made, the difference will be even less.
To me mony isn't an argument, certainty is.

6. hard to separate from some former points, but on a mac the hardware and the software is made by the same company.
This is kind of a garantee things will fit together.

Even more important here is that if there's a (minor or major) problem, it will be a major topic on all mac related forums and magazins on the world
The noise problem of the latest macs f.i. is solved by Apple with a nice fan-exchange offer.

7. In fact I hardly know what I'm talking about.
I didn't know what MoBo meant before my first visit to Planetz, Bios, IRQ, fan (!), no idea!, yet I make music on a computer since 1989 (Atari---> Mac).
Like they say in mac world: I'm with stupid, and I like it.



The only trouble I have on my mac is Cubase-ASIO related, when everything freezes.
This happens a few times a week, specially when my current song is getting heavy.

So a few times a week I have to restart, I throw away the preferences folder of Cubase and of the Mac Sound Controll Panel, and restart again.
This way connections are reset, everything fine thank you

I didn't work with OS-X coz of Creamware (!), but I'm sure things will be even more smoother.
Check out this link, it's about the choice a one-man soft programmer company made about changing platform, leaving a mountain of pc-folks-mony behind.

8. If you wanne buy a computer very soon, this isn't interesting now for you Weirdo2*.
But It seems (?) Apple will exchange the old Motorola processor with the new IBM PowerPC 970, 64 bit, Altivec, 937 SPECint2000 at 1,8 GHz.
Ha, I realy hardly know what I'm talking about, but I read magazins sometimes when I don't make music

This would be a major step for the Mac, and Intel will have someone on his side again if we're talking about reckon power.
I'm waiting for this, and such a mac, combined with OS-X, man that will be a machine!

BTW wanne stay with Microsoft Internet Explore, Outlook, Messenger, Office 2001, etc.?
It's all there, full Mac versions.
I never did it, but you can even install virtual pc, for sentimental moments...




BTW I have a nice pc/Windows-XP upstairs.
Xcell, Word, etc., but no audio or video stuff.
Works fine, never had a crash.

cheerz

PS.
an unintended plus for the mac side: you don't get *this* often on Mac (at least I never had one):

In terms of "technology cycles" I think this is a pretty good time to buy a PC (if your current machine is 1.6 or below), but a bad time to buy a Mac. Maybe in a few months things will be reversed.

actually Spirit has right, I'm waiting for the new cicle...

In short and as a conclusion:

If you get a Mac, you get something good, but expensive that can in most cases be more stable than PCs cos they don´t need to be configured and tallored like PCs.

In the other hand, if you want to become a Geek, it´s much better to have a PC, because it´s something you can change, move, tweak, put toguether, dismantell again for a new confoguration, and so on... so flexibility is one of it´s points.

I finally, and personally, preffer a PC. and it´s cheaper...

Hi all,

Aaargh!!!! My brain is melting with all this indecision!!
From what I have read so far:

MACS > Positive Points:

Stable and more reliable, easier to pin down problems, less tweaking (sounds good to me. I want to make music not tweak), I'll be able to keep up with future Logic developments.

Negative points:

"expensive" (though about the same cost as the PC I am getting and actually the PC could even be more expensive), less choice with components, expensive software, OS X doesn't work with Pulsar ( will it ever?), the new G 5 isn't backward compatible with OS 9

PC > Positive points:

"Cheaper" (though that I am not so sure about), faster and more powerful, cheaper software and more options with regard to software, I am more familiar with PCs than I am with Macs so I don't have to learn another operating system, can be custom built to your specifications.

Negative points:

Can be unstable, problems more difficult to pin down, maybe too much tweaking to get things going optimally, eg, getting BIOS settings right, IRQs and what not(I have to admit I hate tweaking- I just want things to work and get on with the task at hand), deciding what the right components should be.

So there you have it. There are pros and cons to both platforms, but I can't decide what is best to do. I have gone through a lot of trouble deciding what PC to build, but there may be potential problems ( for instance the motherboard I am planning on getting> ASUS P4P 800 ( great magazine reviews), I have read elsewhere in this forum that a couple of people are experiencing problems. But on the other hand I may not have any hassles and everything will run as smooth as a baby's bum (an Aussie expression meaning really well). I am not familiar with Macs and there are problems with getting one of those too.

As you have probably figured out by now, I am the most indecisive person that has ever walked this planet. Or am I?

Help!!!!!

perfect summary Weirdo.

Your problem now is that you can't weight this balance to yourself coz you know the pc but you don't know the Mac.So you take a certain risk if you try a Mac.

The only compromise I see here is to buy a former last generation second hand Mac, and personally I wouldn't go further back than a G4/about 880 KHz/512RAM.
If you later for all that wanne change to Windows, you have to sell the Mac, and here the longer economic lifetime of a Mac is an advantage.

Hrumpf, you do have a problem here



Don't force it to much, you also could try a serious look with a friend's Mac, or maybe borrow one for a few days.

On 2003-07-28 02:15, hubird wrote:
[...] personally I wouldn't go further back than a G4/about 880 KHz/512RAM.

It's worth mentioning: if you want to compare clockrates - just double the Mac rate in your head and you can imagine it's power in the PC world. In other words: G4/800 is something like a PIV/1.6GHz. I tried to load similar (or the same ) CPU intensive VSTs in both Mac and my friend's PC to compare.

I have used Macs for 5 years now and I wouldmn't change them to a decent PC, even if my machine (G4/800) isn't that new nowadays. That's my personal point of view though I came here after years of nightmares with PCs. BTW - I recently installed a piece of software on my son's PC and can't get rid of it: http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=31&0

Hi Hubird,

Thanks for your response(s).
Maybe buying a 2nd hand Mac is a good idea. In fact maybe I will buy both the PC I was planning on getting and if the price of a 2nd hand Mac is not too expensive, I will maybe get one too. That way I can use both systems and then decide which one truly is the best platform.
Where do you find 2nd hand Macs in Holland? I, by the way, live in Holland too. In Den Haag (I am from Australia though).
But, would you buy a 2nd hand machine? What sort of things should I be checking for? You never know what the previous owner did with it? Also, where would you buy a new Mac?
Unfortunatly, I don't know anyone with a Mac who would be prepared to lend it to me for a few days.

Regards

I'm from Poland butI was once in Den Haag where I met really friendly people You can check for Apple resellers here : http://www.apple.com/nl/. if you buy a secondhand Mac you have to pay attention if it not too new: there were MAcs which had too large PSU to be able to put STDM cable on your CW cards. I don't remember which were those G4s but you can search PlanetZ for them.

Here you can find some advices on getting a Mac:
1. Buy a G4. There are many G4s whcih have different popular names (to be able to recognize the models). So the best choice for you is to buy a QuickSilver g4 (Hubird has got one) - this one is for sure PERFECT for CW cards as it's not with that-too-large-PSU. Those QuickSilvers come with different clockrates starting from 733. The fastest QuickSilver is 933 AFAIK. They have 133MHz SDRAM. There are other G4 models as graphite (350-733) - I've got one G4/400 AGP which is very good for CW cards - I upgraded my comp's processor to G4/800 and I think it will be enough for the next 2 years for my needs. Newer G4s are called MirroredDrive but they are perobably those Macs with the large PSU so don't bother them. Additionaly those Macs don't boot in MacOS 9... Also forget about 2procs Macs - unless you don't use Logic you have no benefit from the second processor. In CWs world, of course.

2. If you want to upgrade your Mac you can use those plain IDE disks - I have a Barracuda IV / 60GB alongside my original IBM 10GB HDD. Also standard SDRAM memory sticks fit Macs but not always - you have to check. My advise is to buy a quality sticks to ensure stability - this was mentioned many times 0 memory quality is a major factor of stability. You have to know that most USB devices work perfect with MAcs. You have to know also - there are no Floppies in Macs since 1999. No need. So you'd better buy a CDRW equipped Mac or buy an IDE/ATA cd burner to replace your Mac's CD or DVD ROM. Most PC drives work perfect. If you are not sure visit http://www.xlr8yourmac.com for advise.

3. I would buy a secondhand Mac at eBay: http://www.ebay.nl/ or anywhere you like in Europe.

If you need more advise just PM me or e-mail me


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: samplaire on 2003-07-28 04:02 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: samplaire on 2003-07-28 04:04 ]</font>

Hi Samplaire,

Thank you for responding and for your tips. Yeah, Den Haag is a nice place!

Regards.

Sam, your review is top, I never could have said it better.
Weirdo, Here you can try also:
http://www.tweedehandsmac.nl/
http://64.33.77.220/bazoeka/

I think Samplaire mentioned this is passing, but if you are considering one of the current models, please check this site :

http://www.g4noise.com

I know that they are providing a fan swap-out, but I have heard many reports that the replacement does not improve matters too much. What's more, the stories there show a rather disturbing perspective of Apple's 'support'.

peace


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-07-29 12:04 ]</font>