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Should I wake up from my dreams and realise it's impossible to use the STS (or any other sampler for that matter) in order to imitate with high semblence acoustic instruments (Solo Trumpet, Solo Violin, Flute, Vibrophone,etc) ?

Yes
But seriously, posts in this forum by Eliam follow this pursuit - well worth a read.
this is the main one

Although we're getting closer to realism day by day in the field of sampling technology and sample libraries, we still have a way to go... I'll take an example: a friend and I bought a sampled piano CD of excellent quality, one of the best rated on the market, the "Bosendorfer Imperial Grand 290". I worked on programming and modifying this library for around 40 hours and I still have work to do to make it sound as I want.

I think this is a big issue in the sample library field: developers could do what I do once for all before they release their product (or even after) and the customers would have only minor tweaks to do themselves. If I played this sampled piano as it came (virtually without any programming) it could not sound near its true potential, it could not sound realistic. The future libraries should come tweaked and cleansed from what doesn't work, because it's not that much work when someone does it once and then it's done.

Another issue is the softsamplers... Most of them lack the capabilities of control which hardware machines offer. It's not because of the programming limitations but more because of the lack of expertise of those who create the softwares. In this regard, I believe that the STS series is well made, mainly because they copied the Akai concept, which is test-proof. I somewhat question the quality of the filters.

I work with Gigastudion these days, and I kinda like it, but again, there are some flaws which make it impractical to use in some instances, due to a lack of hands-on knowledge of sample usage. Over-all it's a great tool, but I'll be looking forward to try Kontact soon.

I believe that tools will evolve, both on the library and sampler side, and that it will become easier and easier to emulate real instruments without teduous programming.

It's always cool to have some knowledge of the actual instrument too. If you're lucky enough, maybe your friend has the instrument you're trying to emulate. Fiddling with the actual instrument goes a long way to realising what the player actually wants from that instrument. Then, check out someone who's good, play that instrument to understand what sound is considered "good" for that instrument.

I mean, guitar players probably know this. How many times have you heard a very densely, overwhelmingly programmed midi guitar solo lines that play very cheesy, bad tasting phrases? All the effort about being technically correct, is lost with the lack of understanding how a "good" person plays the instrument.
But if you ask me, I tend to keep away from using samples as an attention grabbing foreground these days.. mainly because I got myself a plethora of real instruments, and even though I'm not too good at them, they're MUCH more expressive and attention grabbing. That feeling of a player "being" there, is already naturally integrated when recording real instruments. It's all too simple.
The comparison is easy. Play a phrase 30 times with a real instrument. Compare that with a synth playing the same line 30 times. (with the tweaks and programming and all) The difference is just humiliating..

Though that is not to say that it's impossible to come close. With considerable time and effort, I've heard some that get really close. Instruments with decaying sounds seem easier than sustained instruments. I just think the whole process kind of intensive on my creative patience, so I just work with what I have. That's just my way of managing work time. Respects to those who take the time to enhance the quality of the samples.

Better yet, a trick to make your mix (as opposed to the specific instrument) sound natural is to slide in some real sounds into the mix. Could be anything. Try a tambourine, or some maracas. I just named these because theyre' cheap, small instruments that can be played almost instantly. After that goes in, things liven up. If you're skeptical, try it. You'll only loose a drive to the nearest music shop and a couple of bucks. Besides, it's always good to be able to play atleast one purcussive instrument.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-06-25 12:35 ]</font>

... I'll take an example: a friend and I bought a sampled piano CD of excellent quality, one of the best rated on the market, the "Bosendorfer Imperial Grand 290". I worked on programming and modifying this library for around 40 hours and I still have work to do to make it sound as I want.


What exactly do work on? I of course do not expect to given all the tricks of the trade, but since I come from acoustic instrument backgroung (Drums & Piano), I would appriciate a few pointers. What tweaks, what filters, what prog. ?

An an addition - Miroslav Vitous Lib - anyone heard it?

Thanks
Soffer

I got Vitous, spend alot of money on this, and it does NOT worth it at all. Crap stuff, bad vibrato everywere, badly tuned samples, noise in samples, etc, etc. I can go on like this for some times. Real crap. Advanced orchestra is far better.

Don't waste your money on this...


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: marcuspocus on 2002-06-26 09:40 ]</font>

Wow!

That's a suprise! What cd's did you get? Just strings? And what's Advanced orch?

I paid 800US$ for Solo Instruments 2 (flute, violin, contrabass, couple of clarinet) NONE of the programs are useable. Worst, the CD is not even filled, at max 230meg on it. Not multi sampled, not chromatic either. Not a single filter on anything. Well crap. My friend got almost all of them (buyed as a bundle) and he think the same way. We cannot use those samples in any song. I think i remember the string cd being a bit better than the other one. But still, the advance orchestra is in another league completely.

Adi- I'd be pleased to tell you ALL I KNOW!

Tweaking my Bosendorfer (4 velocities):

1- Eliminate ugly and out of context notes.

2- Correct volumes (which weren't homogenous through the keyboard)

3- Adjust the filtering. I use a velocity-controlled low-pass filter to mimic the lower layer's tone in each velocity. This means that more high frequencies are removed as the velocity decreases, so that the transition between velocities is less noticeable than by using the samples as is. Also very important: attack filtering. With the same principles than high freq filtering, the velocity-controlled gradual attack attenuation really improves the transitions between velocities and helps to create a realistic feeling.

I cannot correctly control the attacks in Giga and this is a real bug!

After all this, some testings are necessary to fine-tune the whole instrument, to see how it reacts while playing real music with it and correct what's not working...

With a good sampler, you can do all this without problems. I don't know if there's a real good softsampler tho.

It's a fairly long process, and I wouldn't be ready to do it very often... I think that it's a bit the job of the sample-developer to do these tweakings, but I don't believe that any of them actually does it...

As for Mr Vitous, you might read this thread:
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCG ... 3;t=002691

Thanks a lot eliam.
I'm usuing the Prosonus Grand Piano (wanna swap?) for jazzy lines and will use my weekend to try out your tweaks on the STS.
I also read in one of youre threads of this orchestration boog, and going to check this as well.
Thanks!

If you want any clarification, don't hesitate to ask!

Peace.

On 2002-06-27 21:31, eliam wrote:
If you want any clarification, don't hesitate to ask!

Peace.

Well... Here I go...

I'm using STS3000, and it's manual got me so confused I can't seem to implement your advices. I've been fiddling with the different values for hours and nothing good happens. This is almost like asking for a private lesson, BUT, if you can spare a moment and point to me where to go on the menus and what to look for, I'd be forever greatfull...

OK...

Low-pass filter: Keygroups>options>filter: select low-pass and enter a frequency. The lower the value, the lower the frequency where the filtering will occur. In Freq. mod, select "velocity" and enter a value. The higher the value, the more modulation there will be around the filtering freq in function of the velocity.

Also select "external" as another Freq mod and enter a negative value, so that your amount of cutoff will decrease as the volume increases. After that go in "settings" and set controller 7 (volume) as external controller.

For envelope modulation: go in envelopes, give a value to the attack, then put a negative value in vel A, so that your attack cutoff will decrease as the velocity increases. To see what this tweaking does, load an instrument which has a strong attack and play with your values to see what happens...

Of course, while the basics remain the same all the time, different instruments require different settings, so as different contexts require particular tweakings.

This sampler programmation is truly what can give a "life" to static samples and make them sound interesting because slightly different depending on the attack, volume, etc. Of course there are some cases where these filtering automation won't do what we want... Filtering can be controlled by another mod.source while ADSR cannot (which is a lack).

Hope this helps... You'll have to carefully listen and become familiar with these techniques, but it's what samplers are about...

Thank you very very much eliam!

Do you also use hardware samplers? Do you find any significat beefits or pitfalls?

Soffer

I don't have a hardware sampler myself but my partner has an e-mu 6400 and it works really fine, inspite of the ram limitations (128 meg max). Actually, the sampler companies have an expertise that very few softsampler companies have, and that is why many softwares lack some important details... I've been working with Gigastudio for a while, and if its brute force power is astounding, the envelope control is really poor. So what's the use to have that much power without the basic functions which make a sampler a great, precisely tweakable tool? I hope that they'll fix these things in the next version, because with the power of this software, if they don't do it it will sink under its own weigh...

The main sampler makers are e-mu and akai, afaik, and I believe that once they put their feet in the software arena, we'll have great softsamplers...

The STS series are an emulation of the akai concept, and I like these samplers... The only thing is that one needs 6 dsps to reach 64 voices of polyphony... And if one wants to use other devices at the same time, a scope is required... DSPs are a good investment, along with bread and tofu, but for now I must rely on an external sampler which I process with my glorious 3 DSPs!

I tried Kontakt this week-end and it is the most promising of all the softsynths I've tried yet. The filtering seems very good, both in tone and control capabilities, the polyphony is more than sufficient and it reads the .gig files directly. It doesn't stream audio like Giga, but I can live with that! -my friend has 128 megs and I have 512!

Adi- what do you exactly want to do with a sampler?

Well, since I come from an acoustical (Drums & Piano) background, my music is more jazz and orchestra oriented, and I'm trying to reach these sounds. If you've ever heard Frank Zappa's Synclavier and orchestral experimentation, you're sure to know what I'm looking for.

Although I listened to many Zappa's records a few years ago, I'm not really familiar with his orchestral work... Anyway, a sampler is an amazing tool, whatever the musical style... If you want to tweak your sampler so that it sounds as good as it can, then you'll have plenty of fun and PLENTY of work.

Although I listened to many Zappa's records a few years ago, I'm not really familiar with his orchestral work... Anyway, a sampler is an amazing tool, whatever the musical style... If you want to tweak your sampler so that it sounds as good as it can, then you'll have plenty of fun and PLENTY of work.

Well, if you're interested you should check these albums:
Yellow Shark (Ensemble Modern plas Zappa)
Civilization Phaze III (amazing Syclavier work)
London Symphony Orchestra plays Zappa.

Zappa's most cmmonly known rock oriented music is, in my view, clearly just the tip of the ice berg, and he really an fulfilling his ambitions in the more orchesral works.

You should listen to it. It's a revelation.

No doubt these might contain nice stuff, but I'm no more attracted by Zappa-style abrasive music. I used to like it, but now I don't really seek experimental stuff anymore, even though I'm not closed to it. You see, I've been a drummer for 15 years but now I consider that drums just hide the harmony and the essence of the music. IMHO, if you remove the percussions (piano aside) from a music and it looses its essence, then this music has no essence at all. But hey! that's just me!

A string quartet can be rythmically amazing, without any impacting percussive noises. And as you know, the piano is the most beatiful of all percussion instruments!

In another line completely: have you heard David Hykes' harmonic choir?