the Future of SonicCore.

[hubird]

Thanks Holger Drenkelfort for the courage to explain yourself so clearly in that other thread.
inDSP gave you, SC, a surprising (I guess) but not so nice Christmas present.

In the past there were some questions regarding the exact relationship between both companies.
SC got the rights to exploite the Scope platform.
inDSP itself says it's a R&D company, developing new products based on the Scope technology for 3rd parties, like the CME/ASX keyboard.
Use-Audio should be one of those '3rd party' companies, but if you ask me there are strong interests between it and inDSP...to say the least.

We as users of Scope are dependent from SC in the first place.
SonicCore is the new 'Creamware', and our platform will be dead if SC would lose it's commercial base.
Borg saw that immediately, followed by some other guys here...

The 'Scope plugins' page of Use-audio starts the page by saying:

Sharing equal rights to the SCOPE platform technology with Sonic Core GmbH, we are happy to present the loyal SCOPE user community with a limited time promotional offer of SCOPE plug-ins..
Now that Holger in public has stated to disagree about the offer of inDSP this quote sounds rather cinical.
I suppose there were some polemics already behind the scenes about all this, as the statement above smells like a justification for something SC disagreed with.
Be it a surprise for SC or not, it's clear anyway now that the offer is totally against SC's interest.

I already tried to figure out what could be the reason for SC to agree with this offer.
With Mehdi I thought both companies must have made a deal on the offer yields.
This could only be rational if SC would be focussing on something new which would not suffer from the ultimate sell-out offer.
The only setting for this is totally new cards, not compatible with the 'old' ones.
This way the offer then would be the last attempt to 'squeeze' the last cents out of the 'loyal Scope user community', as Use-audio formulates it.
If so this would be fine, as business is business.

Obviously this analysis is untrue.
It's also obviously now that the offer is directly against the interest of SonicCore.
Their cash flow, selling the available plugins, is killed in one night, just before Christmas when noone on the offices is available to set things right.
After a few days the harm has done, as the offer will run hard, very hard.

We, the user base, have of course interest in inDSP developing strong new entries through real 3rd party products like the ASX.
Selling pure Scope plugs for a rediculous price is something totally different.

I'm glad I can't be tempted to buy the bundle offer, as I have already almost everything that is included, but now that I know SC doesn't agree at all with it, I declare that I never will buy it.

Mr Frank Hund, I have a lot of respect for what you did for the Scope Platform in the past, but you have to know that I, as a Scope user, one of your 'loyal Scope community users', don't like the whole thing.

Use-audio may have the legal right to sell plugs, but the bundle is directly and strongly against the interest of SonicCore.
It looks like a indecent confusion of interests.
Ever seen a R&D company selling plugs?

You presented SC as the new Creamware, and mentioned the personal passionated involvement of the leading guys of SC, to ensure us of the continuation of our beloved platform.
It's clear that this bundle offer is deadly for them, given the disagreement by SC.

Also marketing wise it's deadly to have two companies selling independently the same plugs, in particular when a company like inDSP is one of them.
inDSP doesn't have any appeal to regular Scope users, it's not focussing on end-users but on other companies.

Use-audio is one of them.
I don't mind if it's a business construction by inDSP itself or not, it's not of my business, and business is business.
The plugiator is a nice thing, selling optional plugins for it is also logical.
Selling (extremely bundled) plugins for regular Scope users is another thing.

Hence I'd like to declare my solidarity with SonicCore, and I call everyone here to declare the same.
inDSP (Use-audio), selling plugs along with Sc, will never work.
Now already SC declared not to give support for the plugs sold by Use-audio.
This doesn't look right at all.

Dear inDSP, dear mr. Frank Hund, I, as a Scope user, would like to ask inDSP to clear up the commercial relationship with SonicCore.
We just got some hope 2008 would bring us serious development in the continuation of Scope.
Not having clear who's selling whát is a direct threat to this.

- I added a simple poll question

huub

[sonicstrav]

Sonic Core will not give support for the plug-ins sold by use-audio as they are a separate company. Obviously the deal means that Sonic Core and in DSP both own the old Scope Plug-ins. The only way is for Sonic Core to develop new Plug-ins and sell them. After all, they are quite old and there is no way commercial high quality VSTs would demand the same price after so long. I am sure Sonic Core can come up with new stuff not in the too distant future.

[hubird]

and how should new developments be payed then?
the cash flow will be destroyed by now...except some extra sellings of new (old)cards, now that you can have it all for a dime.
I'm very worried actually.

[dawman]

ASB Mixer w/ 3rd party and stock effects,....ankyuvarymush.

Nice poll Brotha' Man Hubird. Definately Device/Module wishlist thread though.

[hubird]

yes
and it's not only about this particular offer of Use-audio, it's about the fundamental business relationship between Sc and U-A, so it also reflects the long term future.
The commercial responsabilities of both companies are messed now, obviously and understandable without SC's approval.
I can't even see why this would be in the interest of inDSP/U-A, as without SonicCore the Scope platform will be dead.

[garyb]

how can i say this in a diplomatic fashion?

there are boundaries.
the technology is shared, the products are not.
you'll notice that the use/audio offer doesn't include some of the latest offerings....

if you want the plugiator or the ASX go to Use/Audio. otherwise it's Sonic Core that is supporting further Scope developement. please buy from S/C when it comes to Scope products to insure the future of our favorite soundcard....

i'll say no more because i have no desire to start a war that has myself in the middle.

[hifiboom]

I`m loyal with SC too.

I guess inDSP have no rights on the scope platform itsself.

with SFP v5 SC may be able to introduce a protection update to the plug-ins, so that the inDSP versions will render to unuseable. And they already stated that these versions are unsupported by Soniccore.

That would just be fair.

at the end I already own all the stuff in the package, so like other users, I am looking forward for new device developments and I am willing to pay for that as well.

[sonicstrav]

I think Scope development has gone two separate ways. Obviously both companies can sell the old stuff - use-audio has gone in at a cheaper competative rate - they are a business ...out to make money. My own gut instinct tells me that SonicCore will software-wise be more innovative in the future (they are the original scope guys). No new stuff..no MacOS X support in the future..no new plugins....they are finished (like any other business)

Have faith..these guys ain't stupid....I'm not too worried abut the future actually

[hubird]

Have faith..these guys ain't stupid....I'm not too worried abut the future actually

and this opinion is economicly based on...what?

[Sounddesigner]

I think Scope development has gone two separate ways. Obviously both companies can sell the old stuff - use-audio has gone in at a cheaper competative rate - they are a business ...out to make money. My own gut instinct tells me that SonicCore will software-wise be more innovative in the future (they are the original scope guys). No new stuff..no MacOS X support in the future..no new plugins....they are finished (like any other business)

Have faith..these guys ain't stupid....I'm not too worried abut the future actually

But as a user my money goes to the one who has the SCOPE Platform best interests. Sonic Core and indsp are not in agreement thus there is no joint-development for Scope thus users will have to make a choice as to who they support/buy from (or possibly end up with incompatible unsupported products, or contributing to the death of Scope). Sonic Core has shown that they've continued the life of SCOPE and in my mind such continuation NEEDS customer support to go on. It boils down to Life or Death choice, that simple.

P.S. I'm not looking to start war either, just speaking from a customers point of view who's worried about a product that i love and am grateful for the one giving it life.

[astroman]

yeah, and they'll buy me a Monster Cable and new bass strings for christmas

[astroman]

I guess inDSP have no rights on the scope platform itsself...

without peeking at the contracts - you bet they have, definetely

cheers, Tom

[inDSP Frank]

Have faith..these guys ain't stupid....I'm not too worried abut the future actually

and this opinion is economicly based on...what?

More plugins our there will keep users stick to their platform. The current bundle will even sell a few more SCOPE cards - you have more plugins, you need more DSP. And for new users the system gets more attractive, as for not much money you get a stunning array of plugins for the cards.

Economically there is no need to question the survival of Sonic Core with regard to the Use Audio bundle offer, and asking such questions will not help their case either.

But as Hubird challenges me for a reply to Holgers comment: You may ask yourself why inDSP did not start offering any plugins already in March 2007. Actually, for a long nine months SC had all opportunity to work with inDSP on avoiding such strange double offering of the same plugins. For that same time inDSP was sticking to their end of the mutual understanding, waiting for SC to do the same. Maybe this (note: time limited) offer finally leads to the original understanding being honored. This is at least what I would hope for. Holger has my phone number and it may just take one call. And stardust is perfectly right, the alternate offer would disappear immediately. Anyway, enough said... I hope to talk to Holger soon.

Otherwise, since early 2007 there are in fact two companies which are to carry the SCOPE legacy further. Everyone knows that the PCI cards of today are dated and that only new hardware and a really major system revision will secure the survival of the platform in the longer run. I do hope that, in case we should see two such systems, the companies would sit down on integrational aspects and allow the user base to enjoy synergies between products. This is not far fetched at all, as both SC and inDSP would be using the same SHARC DSPs and similar APIs anyway (while all the other players in that market stick with Motorola these days). It would certainly be in the best interest of everyone, as product synergies are what the market is looking for today.

Best regards, Frank

[inDSP Frank]

On a side note.... Holger and me have just been talking on the phone (a minute ago), and it was the most productive conversation we had in a while. I am positive we can sort out our differences quite soon and get everything back in line. We remained we would want the forum to know about our call. This means you have two companies working for YOU, even Sundays



Merry Xmas, Frank

[hubird]

OOPS...I got overtaken by time.
Good to see there's some initial understanding already
__________________

Thanks for showing up here mr. Hund.

I just can't see why selling separately the exact same plugs as Sc does, can be called 'competition'.
It hits SC in the heart, not because of 'competition' but because U-A is selling out the product of SC itself.
Everytime someone is buying the bundle there's actually mony 'transferred' from SC to U-A at the height of € 2500,-.
It's like Toyota is selling Mitsubishi cars for dump prices.
How could SC ever make a business future plan in such circumstances.

Anyway, I hope both companies will find a way to keep their core business separated.



Some quotes:

i wish you all the best Frank, but i wonder what this is gonna do to the relationship between inDSP and SonicCore?

I wonder what Sonic Core´s reply to this will be. Buying one of their Scope plugins from their website is no option when this offer stands. Even I feel cheated!

i'm surprised that they can sell the same devices even if they 'share' the CreamWare technology. i mean could both develop a new card and new Scope? Which would we go for? i'm very confused.

Wow, wow, wow ...
Just wondering - two companies selling software for one system?
This seems not right. Who makes the money ... and can continue the work on our beloved system?
Is this a sale-out?
Damned!

Not sure how i feel about splitting my keys over two companies though.

what was that Genesis tune ? ...Selling England by the Pound ?

still very strange to have two companies with different agenda's but selling the same products (the plugins) don't you think?

The Plugiator box is certainly the kind of competition users appreciate - the promotional bundle offer is clearly to devaluate a competitor's (?) portfolio.

People already asked themselves how it might work out that 2 different companies have a partly identical product catalog, or the right to exploit the latter

if you want the plugiator or the ASX go to Use/Audio. otherwise it's Sonic Core that is supporting further Scope developement. please buy from S/C when it comes to Scope products to insure the future of our favorite soundcard....

I think nobody would run in problems if inDSP or use-audio would develop new plug-ins for the scope platform and sell them independently.
But the plug-in bundle as it is offered is overlapping with current Soniccore Scope portfolio and so it is an extreme price dumping and a kick in soniccores ass, rudly spoken.

_______________
OOPS...I got overtaken by the time.

[King of Snake]

On a side note.... Holger and me have just been talking on the phone (a minute ago), and it was the most productive conversation we had in a while. I am positive we can sort out our differences quite soon and get everything back in line. We remained we would want the forum to know about our call. This means you have two companies working for YOU, even Sundays



Merry Xmas, Frank

very good to hear that you guys had a productive conversation!
Certainly it is for the best of everyone involved in the platform, both users and developers, to strive for a common goal: to sell as many products as possible and to try and move into the direction of updated hardware.
A good communication between SC and InDSP/Us Audio (and Planet Z ) is essential, even if the companies are in some ways competitors.

For that same time inDSP was sticking to their end of the mutual understanding, waiting for SC to do the same. Maybe this (note: time limited) offer finally leads to the original understanding being honored. This is at least what I would hope for.

I'm not sure I understand what was the part of the understanding that you feel wasn't being honoured by SC. It sounds like this offer was some kind of attempt to force SC to do...something?

[dawman]

I often read posts about how Kontackt 2 is better than Gigastudio, and Gigastudio is better than Kontackt 2. Like children, they defend their choice of software, and even make false claims to justify their purchases.

I use both, and believe that I can benefit better that way. As Frank stated, we have a couple of new achievements from JB, and inDSP.

I believe in redundancy and have purchased hardware to alleviate the DSP usage, and act as a reserve in case of computer crash or problem.

I love the Klang's and know their production run is over, but they are perfect for live use. Plugiator may have it's use in a live venue for sure.

I wish Frank would comment on it's specs a little more. It would appear as though this unit has picked up where the Klang's left off. This could be useful but I would offer a little more information on it's abilities prior to NAMM '08.

I think I might benefit from such products.

I still prefer the rackmounted approach, as anyone who is serious about his live work, doesn't enjoy hauling around plastic front surface soldered products w/o some protection.

I welcome anything that is useful to our platform.

I Look Forward To The Future With An Open Mind.

[garyb]

interesting.
i look forward to a prosperous future for both companies!

[hifiboom]

now it seems like everything is cleared up already...
a single phone call in that case was the right choice...

so we all can have a nice xmas time without being confused....

[hubird]

now it seems like everything is cleared up already...

if you ask me, they just friendly agreed to talk soon...
you don't get these delicat things right in a simple phone call.