Some basic general questions about scope

[Mike Goodwin]

Hello forum

Sorry but I have some very basic questions that I could not find answers to on the scope page. There seems to be no mention at all of how many applications that you can run on the different scope cards. I am not looking for exact numbers but a general idea of what can be expected. My other main question is regarding drivers, support, and general compatibility using scope with current PC hardware/software. Are the cards working well with dual/quad core Intel chips? Is Creamware actively supporting this product? Is customer support any good? I am asking mainly because I have it in my head that getting things to work with Scope can be a pain in the butt. I am not sure if that is just nonsense or if it is a generally finicky system. My last question is.... can you use the scope software instruments and fx as vst instruments in your DAW? I am just assuming that you have to treat the scope card as a hardware synth but hey one can hope!

Thanks to anyone that takes the time to help me get my head around this platform!

[Mr Arkadin]

There seems to be no mention at all of how many applications that you can run on the different scope cards. I am not looking for exact numbers but a general idea of what can be expected.

The card runs just the one application: Scope 4.0 (or 4.5 if you but it). If you mean how many devices can run within that environment, well it all gets a little complex. Others will have figures i'm sure - it depends on the size of the card, 3, 6 or 14 DSPs. i would always recommend 6 DSPs as minimum for a decent project, 14 if you can afford it will do some amazing things.

My other main question is regarding drivers, support, and general compatibility using scope with current PC hardware/software. Are the cards working well with dual/quad core Intel chips?

If you pick the right motherboard, the ASUS ones seem to be the solid choice and work fine. Garyb will be able to enlighten you more on that, but check out the Tech Talk section here at the forum for some suggestions. You will need to use XP, do not even think of Vista just yet, and on Mac OSX is yet to be supported (it ran brilliantly on OS9 though - and some still happily do this - i only don't because my G4 died).

Is Creamware actively supporting this product? Is customer support any good? I am asking mainly because I have it in my head that getting things to work with Scope can be a pain in the butt. I am not sure if that is just nonsense or if it is a generally finicky system.

No Creamware aren't actively supporting this because they do not exist anymore But don't worry, SonicCore have taken over, there are many of the original programmers back on board and it would be surprising if they bought all the rights to this technology to not do anything with it. Although Ralf (and others) at SonicCore is very good for support you may want to ask questions here first because we've been there and done it. Plus you may get a quicker response here.

My last question is.... can you use the scope software instruments and fx as vst instruments in your DAW? I am just assuming that you have to treat the scope card as a hardware synth but hey one can hope!

There is an alternative to the Scope window called XTC. There are quite a few people who use it, but more that don't. It isn't supported anymore and i get the feeling may not be SonicCore's priority. However it loses the advantage of almost zero latency (this is a host thing, not Scope's problem) and of course you are still using the Scope DSP, so you can't say render an instrument like you could a VSTi, you would record it in real time. You second assumption of using Scope as hardware is spot on and they way we like to think of it.

The Scope window is much more fun than fiddling with Cubase etc. You can route anything to anything by connecting a virtual wire. If you can think of it, you cando it in Scope (and if there's a device you can think of that doesn't exist you can build it in ModularIII a virtual modular synth, or a someone might even make a device for free (there are many free devices about at the moment).

[nightscope]

Hi Mike,

I bought a 15 DSP card about 18 months ago. Didn't really know much about the system just fancied the idea of being able to do a little more than route my sequencer's audio out of my box. Bit of an impulse purchase to be honest.

My first impressions were noticing a leap in sound quality of anything I recorded. Then how much better the Scope synths sounded compared to any VST equivalent I had. VST's synths are now history. The quality of the bundled FX is very good. The ease of routing anything I like, in my box or out of my box, to anywhere I choose is really good.

I setup a new box following the advice of this forum. Intel Dual Core and MOBO. Runs great with Scope.

As my addiction set in I got another second hand 15 DSP booster card which makes what I have now more than enough for me and performs perfectly. On what I consider to be very big tracks I got the Scope cards running at 3/4 max, my CPU at 25% or less and a UAD card maxed out as per usual. We got headroom to spare.

I've never used XTC mode as there didn't seem to be any point bypassing huge areas of Scope's power. Some folks are quite happy with it so it appears to be fine, I don't know.

Customer support from Creamware and now SonicCore, in my case always been very rapid. Similarly, the support from this forum. There are some very talented and clued up people here and between them all there isn't much they don't know. Also the support from the various 3rd party develpers is unbelievable.

That said, maybe Scope isn't for everyone, obviously. Best to think carefully about what you really need for your work and see if a Scope system meets your requirements.

ns

[hifiboom]

hi Mike,
click on my www button to get an idea of how good the synths sound.

[garyb]

actually, there is a bit to learn as far as setup goes, but if you understand signal routing and hardware, scope is the most intuitive and straight-forward app around, so difficulties are only at the beginning. scope works with most computers, but works best on certain high quality systems(surprise, surprise...intel works the best, stability wise). i build scope systems and find them easy to set up and rock stable once set up correctly. if you have problems, this is the place.

scope isn't for everyone, but a scope system made from a current, fast computer need never be upgraded to remain a truly professional, great sounding recording system that will do grammy quality work if you are capable of grammy quality work. the movie "gladiator" was done on scope as was "batman begins". we have had 2 grammy nominations for best instrumental albums mixed mostly or all in scope from the characters that have been on this forum. there is no competing product(except maybe protools hd which is around $40,000).....

[dawman]

Well I am a big DSP whore for sure. I have 3 machines, and only one of them has 36 DSP ships. The other 2 have 45 each, well I am waiting for a 15DSP card to arrive for 1 of the DAWg's.

I use heavy DSP eating mixers, FX, and synths though, and need it for live production, so hence the addiction.

But just today I have been listening to an ASIO mix only w/o any synths where I was using the SpaceF FB5 mixer, and Wolf's 16 channel mixer. I use 2 hardware reverbs on this for their sound quality, and conservation of DSP's, and PCI Buss saturation. 1 x hardware Muli FX unit, and 1 x hardware delay unit.

Here's what was used in the final mixdown.

56 Channels of ASIO 2 into 2 separate mixers
26 MIDI channels from 2 separate MIDI Source Modules
_____________________________________________________________
Wolf's 16 Channel Mixer

Lexicon Prime Time Model 93 on AUX I
Lexicon PCM91 on AUX II
Alesis Q20 on AUX III
SpaceF FAT-S on AUX IV
2 x DAS DynaPara
1 x DAS SL9000 ( Master Out )
1 x Celmo Pro Vintage Delay
2 x Celmo Phaza
2 x SpaceF Wax Wah-Wah
1 x Creamware SBC
4 x Creamware HexaChorus
1 x Creamware PsyQ ( Master Out )
1 x RD II Cross Flanger
1 x Creamware AutoPan
1 x Creamware MIDI Tremolo
1 x Creamware Tremolo Stereo
_____________________________________________________________

SpaceF's FB5

Lexicon PCM81 AUX I
SpaceF AUX Delay AUX II
Creamware PsyQ AUX III
6 x Liquids
8 x Cosmic
8 x Haze
6 x Air
8 x Haze 2
1 x Cemo Tape Sim
1 x Celmo Ganja Delay
1 x Wolf's Matrix Delay
2 x SpaceF Synth FX
Synth FX I 3 x inserts SSB Modulator / SSB Phasor / 4 Tap Chorus
Synth FX II 2 x inserts Celmo Phaza / Creamware Master Chorus
1 x SpaceF Echo 35
2 x DAS DynaPara
1 x DAS SL900 ( Master Out )
1 x Creamware Softclip ( master Out )
1 x Celmo Stereo EchoReq
1 x Celmo Spring Reverb
1 x MCCY Spring Reverb


Several modules for MIDI controls, external FX, and external hardware synthesizers.

3 x 15 DSP cards using 60-65 % of DSP power.

And the sound is to die for. My samples and VSTi sampled based instruments are astounding.

I have my hardware sequencer running a loop of 5 songs where the instruments are tweaked. This is a final mix w/ no destination yet. I only know how to record to tape ATM, but even using a good old Otari console, Scope's shit is far superior to anything my friends do w/ Neundo and SAW Studio.

You will regret buying 6 DSP's even if you don't do live gigs.

My 2 cents.

[Mike Goodwin]

WOW!
That is a very friendly welcome to the forum OK well I'm pretty much sold. I already am running a very high end Asus Intel chipset motherboard with a dual core CPU. So I don't think I will have any problems. I can only afford a used project card at the moment. But I have MANY native VSTI's that I use so it would not me a everything card for me. It is to join my collection of Tassman, Reaktor and Nord Micro Modular as well as others. I just want access to the software. I do not want to be held back though from using nice big patch though. Well I can start with the project and see how it goes. I do not see myself mixing down into scope but I could as I do have two adat outs on my current sound card. Hmmmm.

[Mr Arkadin]

WOW!
That is a very friendly welcome to the forum

Yes this is one of the better forums on the old interweb thingy, everyone's here
to help.

But I have MANY native VSTI's that I use so it would not me a everything card for me.

Maybe try space f's FAT Inserts, they can fatten up even the weakest VST instrument.

It is to join my collection of Tassman, Reaktor and Nord Micro Modular as well as others.

i'm thinking you're going to love Modular III, especially if you add Adern's FleXor3 to the mix.

I do not see myself mixing down into scope but I could as I do have two adat outs on my current sound card. Hmmmm.

Oh but you will, (waves hand in Jedi motion) you will. Seriously though - once you try bussing out from your host into Scope i think you'll end up working that way, almost no-one uses the internal native mixing once they've dabbled in Scope.

[eliam]

I recommend you try to mix in scope, if this is possible... With a 6dsp card though, not sure this would be practical. I find mixing in scope gives me superior results than the usual sequencers, more definition, better stereo, depth, etc. Worth checking anyway...

[Mike Goodwin]

very interesting. I would only have access to 16 adat inputs and my mixes although small usually go well over that. With scope is there a way to route things internally from my host program through the scope card with out having to go out of the box and back in? My mixes are usually under 24 tracks including fx returns, so I guess the question is then how many DSP's would a 24 channel Scope mixer take up? And it is a strong consensus here that the summing in scope is better than using a native DAW's summing even if it is working at 64 bits all the way through?

[Sounddesigner]

I bought 6dsp card to start with, you can do much with it, you can have mixer, one of the top class synths and some effects while enjoying the superior routing scope has. But once you hear the SCOPE sound you may start selling alot of your other stuff from other platforms, i did. I used Native and uad and scope forces me to sell some of both, and 6dsp's is easily out-grown tho it is good starting point if your on budget and you can expand while still protecting your original scope 6dsp investment. I was asleep to scope for many years then several months back i researched it and bought a 6dsp card, my biggest regret was that i did not buy it sooner. SCOPE quickly became the heart of my studio, As a platform i truly see it as unrivaled, i'm not interested in nothing else not protools or even the best hardware for core sound and work enviroment.

SCOPE is a platform that many are asleep to. You read alot of threads on music forums concerning best synths, effects, work enviroment, flexibility, etc and rarely is scope mentioned,. When the full power and beauty of scope is realized then there is only one answer for many of those questions, imo. SCOPE is strong on all fronts, more complete then most dsp platfoms, highly integratable, with enough available dsp power for the platform to suit most.

If you buy a used 6dsp card you can get alot of scope top quality synths and effects for dirt cheap by purchasing it threw the 4.5 platform upgrade ($275), when you buy the upgrade you can choose from Mix & Master pack (vinco,sbc, mixers,interpole, masterverb pro, etc), or the 'Synth & Sampler pack ( minimax,vectron, prodyssey, b-2003 organ, pro12, modular 3, etc), there really is no bigger bang for the buck out here then this upgrade or the SCOPE card in general. Just be prepared to give Soniccore your life savings still. My only regret is that i did'nt give it to them sooner.

Here's a link to some flexor audio clips as well - http://www.adern.com/home/modules.php?n ... view&id=10

[eliam]

Yes, through multiple asio connections you can send many tracks into individual mixer channels in scope. I'm not the only one who prefers scope over native for mixing, but try it yourself to see how you feel about it. With a 6dsp card you can use the 2448 mixer and a couple of FX and eqs, but you'll hit the ceiling real quick. I don't think you'll look back when you taste the scope fruits, you'll likwly end up like us and want more!! Be careful, you can't say you weren't warned!

[garyb]

scope is virtual reality. the scope environment is a room that all of the computer world and real world have connections in. an audio sequencer program can be thought of as a multitrack recorder like a vs2480 or a tape machine. hardware devices like recorders connect to mixers and effects via wires and JACKS. inside scope, the i/o JACKS for the sequencer can connect to the JACKS for the mixer, effects or the real world(going in and out of the computer via the card) in any way you please. scope replaces your current sound card and then some.....you can go in and out of the computer and use real hardware in REALTIME with effectively ZERO latency(well, a couple of samples for the converter time) as well as stream one application into another!(for example, i mixdown out of cubase or sonar directly into samplitude. cubase is my multitrack, samplitude is my 2 track master and i push "play" in cubase and "record" in samplitude and do it the old fashioned, quick way! )

or, you can still use your current card and route via adats or whatever to scope, but that is like the department of the redundancy department, especially since scope sounds so much better than other cards, or as good as the best.

[Sounddesigner]

very interesting. I would only have access to 16 adat inputs and my mixes although small usually go well over that. With scope is there a way to route things internally from my host program through the scope card with out having to go out of the box and back in? My mixes are usually under 24 tracks including fx returns, so I guess the question is then how many DSP's would a 24 channel Scope mixer take up? And it is a strong consensus here that the summing in scope is better than using a native DAW's summing even if it is working at 64 bits all the way through?

I own Sonar and am one of those who like it's 64 bit engine, Scope does'nt need it and sounds dynamite. I prefer scope mixing overall, you'll need to try for yourself tho. Scope will route in and out of several programs your running. The Scope hardware cards are pretty big tho.

[Mike Goodwin]

Hmmm there is a scope card on ebay at the moment but it is the "home" version with the adat expander. That is not enough power. Can you still buy the booster cards for this system? I have taken a quick look around but am not seeing them online. I figure buying used booster cards would be pretty hard as people would always be trying to sell them with other cards. The hole thing has got my head spinning a little. Again a total abundance of money would make things simple. Go figure..

[hubird]

nothing can beat Scope, or it must be the user

[Sounddesigner]

Used SCOPE cards pop up on ebay and on this forum occassionally, i recently bought one from ebay. to get one may take you awhile tho. The new are on sale for $599 ($200 off regular price) here- http://www.novamusik.com/search.aspx?ty ... =37&mid=37

The card comes bundled with tons of synths and effects and your choice of mix and master or synth and sampler pack for top quality additions.

[garyb]

yes, you can get booster cards. sometimes they get sold seperately.

i am involved because since i got my first card some seven years ago(that i still use), my studio has never been more productive or useful. if you PM me, i can give you prices on new cards and accessories, and sometimes used....regardless, let us know here if you have setup issues. we'll get them resolved...

[Mike Goodwin]

Thanks for the link sounddesigner. Dam paying 1100 for the booster card is WAY out of my budget at the moment. I can do about $400 for a project card with the adat but that is where I'm stuck at the moment. There is one person that is trying to sell, i have to wait and see if they will get back to me.

[Shroomz~>]

Can a booster card be run on it's own? I thought they couldn't be set as board0.