Why is Jazz hated so much here?

[paulrmartin]

At least, it's the impression I am getting in view of my last 2 posts in the Music thread.

I have a few interesting questions which might start a nice debate:

1. What is it about jazz that turns you off?

2. What do you think could make jazz more interesting to your ears?

3. Do you really think that jazz is so different than a lot of electronic music going around that thrives on improvising with a controller instead of a "real" instrument?(as far as I'm concerned, it's just a difference in language but the spirit of execution is the same)

My goal here is to get a grasp as to where Jazz lies now and where it might go in the future.

Thanks for your input

[Lima]

Personally I don't hate jazz. Simply I've listened very few of it right now and it doesn't take me too much. I've found it a bit difficult to listen and to follow.
I'm sure this come from my ignorance about the genre.

[alfonso]

Jazz is an important part of my musical experience as a listener, I've seen more jazz concerts than any other type of live music, also because they are much easier to organize, being basically acoustic music. Youll' find a lot of jazz in my CD collection and i have also a couple of rarities amongst my LP's.

Buit music is never something "pure", detached from identity, culture, anthropology. Basically I like jazz because in a certain moment of my life I was exposed to some great jazz, in a contest of sharing it with groups of people that felt to have something in common, a way of life, the appreciation of complexity, it's a very incredible mix of epidermical and intellectual emotion.

I grew up with a sort of multiple personality regarding music. I like and appreciate things that are often not compatibile in the taste range of a single music "consumer"....but this is due to the fact that I grew up musically in the seventies, the spirit was multi-cultural, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Genesis, Yes, Weather Report, Zappa, Davis, Coltrane, Tangerine Dream, Gong, Soft Machine, Popol Vuh, Bill Evans, Allan Holdsworth, Hatfield and the North, Mahavishnu, Anthony Braxton, A.E.O.C........I won't continue, but there was no difference for me, different sounds, different moods for different moments.

If you think to it, even inside the same "genre" the difference between individual artists was massive, each of them was so unique that we could recognize any group from 1-2 bars of an intro even if we never heard that particular track.

The problem with Jazz today is that the 99% of it is maniera. I've loved and still love all the jazz that was made of research and tension to the world, an open musical world continously integrating new forms and cultures, you could feel that spirit in Mingus, Coltrane, Davis, Shepp and some of the AACM, just to start...

But today Jazz, at least what is marketed under that label is not very often capable of surprise and originality, Jazz without surprise and originality is like sex without a partner.

Probably today this tension is better found somewhere else.

[Mr Arkadin]

Jazz is such a broad genre that it deserves it's own sub genres, trad, modern etc. i like some trad jazz (Ben Webster is a fave), and some crossover like Herbie Hancock and there is definitely going to be more exploration when i get the time (there's so much other music to get through too). However i will say that there is a lot of modern stuff that really winds me up. Things i don't like about jazz are:

i'm not a big fan of improvised music - i like generally like structured, with any improvising going on within some sort of structure. Probably why i would rather listen to Bach or Glass. i prefer improvising and then taking the best bits to create something cohesive.

People thinking they're rather clever by playing an 13/12 rhythm over a 4/4 bass whilst the rhythm section alternates 5/4 with 7/16. The result is usually a bloody noise.

People doing the above for extended periods of time. Yes when i jam it goes on for hours, but i know i need to hone that material down to something people might actually be able to sit.

Said same people doing extended solos - for god's sake 15 minute drum solos or bass solos are NOT interesting.

i think there is a lot to be learnt from jazz, but then applying it to less self-indulgent music is probably what's required.

And that's why i hate jazz

PS. To Lima

I'm sure this come from my ignorance about the genre.

No-one should have to understand a single thing about any genre to appreciate something. Do you know anything about film making? Could you make a film? You still watch them though and enjoy them without knowing the mechanics. If any music requires you to know something of its theory (12 tone would be a good example here) then there's something wrong with the music. It should hook you in spite of its techniques, rather than because of them.

[wayne]

I like the way you said it, Alfonso.

[Michu]

heh, define jazz

i actually enjoy a lot live improvised music, i think creating anything 'jazz' track by track defies the purpose...
the interaction between musicians and involvement of audience creates special sort of vibe that makes the experience worthwhile for me.
I have to agree with Alfonso that a lot of modern jazz is formulaic and manneristic. while there must be some plane on which improvising artists communicate, the 'i've heard it somewhere before' feeling can ruin the whole thing.
I have no problem with odd meters and polyrythms, be it in jazz, metal or any other genre (Meshuggah anyone? )
tho i find that if music requires an effort on my side to digest it i take it as an advantage

just my subjective bit of small change

[dawman]

I love, live, and breathe jazz. I listen to all music, but find myself enjoying the beauty of a Fender Rhodes played by Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Josef Zawinul, and many others. Old acoustic cool school stuff is exactly that. Old, but is the root of all jazz improv these days.

Keith Emerson made me buy a Moog
Bill Evans made me buy a Rhodes
Herbie made me buy the ARP2600S
Zawinul just made me dream I was on stage w/ Weather Report
And Mahavishnu Orchestra made me sequence my ass off in 1984.

I owe my total drive to these players, as I always played in bands promoting their hit records, but my drive and feverish woodshedding of parts came from these guys. Writing out jazz solos for theory / composition classes is the way to appreciate and learn these styles.

Just a note though. Since this is a Scope forum, and some synth junkies like me hang here, the amount of " jazz " done on synths is not as popular as the dance stuff, which I am really starting to enjoy since my little dance gig last year. But I hope you " Paulmartin ", post more music like you have done before. The Punk Jazz synth was way cool. I am still too busy to post my compositions here yet, as I struggle w/ Cubase / GVI / SFP DAW. I plan on posting traditional, fusion, and dance pieces. I have aquirred some great samples 4 traditional recently, and the Rhodes from Scarbee has always been hot to play.

[Mr Arkadin]

Oh, and as for Jazz Fusion, don't get me started, 'tis the devil's music i tell you, and not in a good way.

[Michu]

[poke Mr Arkadin]
i love to listen to jazz fusion on ns10s
[/poke Mr Arkadin]

[Mr Arkadin]

Michu, you wind-up merchant - you're just trying to upset me now.

Happy New Year BTW

[BingoTheClowno]

One has to be taught how to listen to jazz I think. I for one, never got that kind of education. Maybe you can give us some tips, what to start listening, etc. What songs represent the essence of jazz music, etc.

On another note, I recently learned what real blues is like, embodied in the music of JB Lenoir, Skip James...

[wayne]

Cecil Taylor rules

[wayne]

Oh yeah, so do Monk, Bud Powell, Art Tatum, Tad Dameron, Lenny Tristano and Professor Longhair

[bizarre]

"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny"

I like jazz ... or some of it ... Zappa played a lot of "modern type" jazz which to my ears was awesome! I dig Brecker Brothers, McLaughlin, Miles Davis (especially his funky period) I'm not into traditional jazz - makes my ears itch

[bassdude]

My taste in music ranges from Sarah Brightman to Sepultura. Jazz is in there somewhere!

[Zer]

well depends on the form of jazz...I can`t handle free jazz. However , smoothjazz is fine swing is fine and dixiland mostly not my cup of tea.

[Counterparts]

At least, it's the impression I am getting in view of my last 2 posts in the Music thread.

I have a few interesting questions which might start a nice debate:

1. What is it about jazz that turns you off?

I'm by no means a connoisseur of jazz and don't listen to very much but I do find some of it to be overly cerebral, so lacking in some heart. That turns me off; a collection of intricate notes and scales is not necessarily music.

However, I could say the same thing about e.g. certain progressive rock music!

I used to go to see Barbara Thompson's Paraphernalia lots when I was younger (with the awesome ex-Colosseum drummer Jon Hiseman who actually married Barbara). I can remember one gig in particular that they played at Ronnie Scotts which was amazing. Lots of rhythm and feeling and heart & soul as well as incredible technique and musical understanding.

Dill Katz was playing bass at the time too, he's awesome on the fretless machine.

Royston

[Mr Arkadin]

My taste in music ranges from Sarah Brightman to Sepultura.

That's some admission.

One has to be taught how to listen to jazz I think.

i don't agree completely here. i think maybe you have to perservere a bit more occasionaly, but music to me should hit your gut. i remember back in 1983 at the age of 15 i saw a documentary on Philip Glass (also John Cage, Robert Ashley - all great) and i had never heard minimalism before and i was blown away. i had absolutely no idea what was going on, had never heard anything like it before, but i knew i liked it. Yes on one level there's a lot of rigid structures, polyrhythms etc - but you know what - it was my gut-level response that i went with and discovered the maths of it later.

If music doesn't 'get you going' then i don't think you need 'education' - it should just grab you.by the balls by itself.. Not to say that jazz should be dismissed if it doesn't initially grab you - i remember when jungle first started and i hated it. However i stuck with it and as it developed into drum 'n' bass it suddenly 'clicked' and now i love it. The same has yet to happen to jazz purely becasue i haven't listened to enough of it (and yes i'm aware of the jazzy elements in drum 'n' bass, although i prefer the harder stuff to the jazzier stuff).

Like basssdude i have a wide spectrum - i'm going to use Mozart to Motorhead via Marley, or perhaps Bach to Branca via Bowie (Sarah Brightman FFS!!), so the fact that certain musics don't 'float my boat' is nothing to do with a closed mind.

However jazz-funk and jazz-fusion have no reason to exist in a civilised world as far as i can see .

[paulrmartin]

However jazz-funk and jazz-fusion have no reason to exist in a civilised world as far as i can see .

Ok, let's just chalk up Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Mile Davis, Larry Coryell as total hacks with no reason to exist then?

Of course, you have a right to say that but a whole lot of people would beg to differ.

I just discovered Squarepusher. I am freaking right out!

[Counterparts]

I just discovered Squarepusher. I am freaking right out!

A friend recently introduced me to 'Oceansize'; lovely music and they have one of the most extraordinary drummers I've ever heard. Checkout 'Music for a Nurse' on myspace, a lovely sweet ambient track