PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Anyone using this on Scope? I'm having a few problems that may be related to driver conflicts with Creamware asio. For example it will crash most hosts on my PC unless I have asio turned off. If I load it with asio turned off it will play fine once I've restarted asio.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kymeia on 2005-10-17 15:27 ]</font>

no problems here...

no problems here.

there are some small issues related to the neuron vs itself. But that has nothing to do with the scope drivers.

how is the neuron VS anyway? I've been thinking of getting it.. been wanting a funky toy for quite a while.. was it worth the money? I mean, there are plenty of interesting but cheap VSTi that are also funky..

particularly, what sort of polyphony should I expect? I use a P4 3.2

edit: ooops, nevermind.. didn't have $900 lying around. lol

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2005-10-18 20:24 ]</font>

Got mine for £100 from thomann.de on sale.

It's not as good as I'd expected but makes some interesting and inspiring sounds and was worth it for that price. It's sort of like a cross between Absynth and Solaris in sound, much warmer than the other additives and with some good resynthesised models. However the plugin does have bugs and there are some sloppy edges to it - for example the patches are not levelled, some are very loud, others too quiet, and it is quite unstable on many systems including mine. However I think some of my problems may be due to a driver conflict somewhere (having other problems on my system to that may be irq related). I certainly would feel pissed if I'd paid the asking price though.

Kymeia, could you register your version at Hartmann and get the modelmaker software ?

there's an issue with Neurons distributed by 'MusicShop' for 199 Euro that weren't authorized. Hartmann refused to register those, so the buyers 'got what they paid for' (according to the ads), ie. the VSTi with 300 readymade models and the Nuke controller.

Thomann possibly just answered the 'price battle' with regular Neurons qualified for registering - in that case it would be a steal

there are tons of Neurons on eBay now and in some forums lots of s*ckers (imho) admitted to be interested in the 199 Euro version only to resell it on eBay for some more...

anyway, imho the VSTI is worth nothing without modelmaker - THAT thing is the core part of the innovation, the synth engine just 'materializes' it.

cheers, tom

Yes that's why I went for the Thomann copies - Hartmann stated they would honour those and I just managed to get my order in in the nick of time

I have full access to support (which I needed as it wouldn't even run at first) and the Modelmaker etc. I just hope they get round to updating it though - their development cycle seems even slower than Creamware's.

i've made some own models and created some small demos with them. You can find them here:

The guitar sound in this small demo is the neuron. The pad and drums are other synths.
Neuron saturated solo lead

Pad sound based on own model.
Neuron Himalaya

Standard preset of the neuron
Neuron flute

Ambient atmosphere
Neuron Ambient Spheres

well, cool and impressive, still doesn't seem to justify the cost tho.. so can anyone tell me more about the 180 euro deal? What's it all about?

i've paid 149 euro last month, i've bought it at a german music shop (online). I've registered at hartmann and all was fine.

I agree with you, the neuron is fantastic but doesn't seem to justify the 700 euro price tag (which is the original price). However for 149 euro this one is a great addition to my setup. I've always wanted the neuron technology in my studio but i thought it was way overpriced.

So i am happy now.

based on synth comparison here in the studio:
I think the neuron is a mixture of the VL1 and absynth, the filter possibilities are reminding me of the cosm filters of the vsynth xt.

The difference of the neuron compared to other synths is the fact that you can make your own models (oscilators). A model is an analysed image of a sample. You can use the environment of the sample (sphere) or the sample itself.

for instance: lets say you want to make a flute lead. If you choose the flute model you have instant access to the flute environment like the body of the flute is made by wood or metal. You can also change the size of the flute. This all has a dramatic effect on the sound and can be done in realtime by changing the position of the joystick on your nuke controller.

When it really gets interesting is when you combine models, or even morph them together. Lets say you have a vocal model in resonator 1 , morph it through resonator 2 which contains a model of an piano. The result is that you hear a sound where the vocal is played on the piano snare. (so the piano snare is actually singing, how cool is that )

The combinations are endless and very impressive.

The downside of this synth is that it's very complex to program if you are not deep in to synthesis. Sure you can use the 'bad' presets on board but the neuron really shines when you are diving deep in the synth possibilities of the neuron itself. However, my guess is that most people will not understand how to really use all this power. Therefor i think a lot of the 450 bought neuron vs's will hit the street in the next couple of weeks.

My advice if you can get your hand on one for a good price, don't hesitate.

last warning: the neuron vs only runs on 44.1 khz (which can be a problem for most of us).


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Quifster on 2005-10-20 04:39 ]</font>

good and interesting points, but a grain of salt remains... (imho)

On 2005-10-20 01:04, Quifster wrote:
... the neuron is fantastic but doesn't seem to justify the 700 euro price tag (which is the original price). However for 149 euro this one is a great addition to my setup. ...

what justifies a price tag at all ?
does anyone believe a handful of semiconductors (worth 30 bucks, even if manually measured for matching specs) justifies the pricetag of one of the most famous synths ever ?
A sawtooth osc isn't black magic and a cascade filter isn't either, yet noone ever mentions 'overpriced' in this context...

Since I recently aquired it, I happen to fiddle a lot with Zarg's Quantum Wave - and I can assure I could have replaced any of the Neuron's sounds in your examples with an equivalent, even in a better quality (regarding the synth engine), but that isn't the point at all

the Neuron is the first sound engine introduced to public that features a completely different way of encoding the specs of audio models

it is at least as groundbreaking as the cascade filter

you've mentioned the appeal of 'journeying through sound models' which gives you a completely different level of control - for the listener it may in fact be (no more than) a reminescence of scanning a wavetable (if one picks an isolated part).

Yet this technology is in it's very early beginnings only - it has great potential, but obviously it's as disregarded as the products of CWA in some market segments...
The true value isn't recognized or respected.

Don't get the impression I'm after dissing your purchase - no way - congrats you didn't let the opportunity pass
but there's more than a decade of studies 'behind' the Neuron's surface, and a software in a domain where you find even less coders than for MacOSX

cheers, Tom

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-10-20 05:33 ]</font>

Since you have both just how close are they soundwise?

I would imagine with a really fast CPU it may be that you could even get more voices than using the hardware synth (since it is basically a custom Linux PC in a keyboard right?) but I would also guess that overall soundquality is determined by the soundcard, in which case Creamware users may have an advantage. However there is also the question of how accurately the VS models or emulates what the hardware synth does.

Thankyou - so the hardware unit has more effects. What effects does it have that the VS doesn't? Maybe with the right efects unit/s I could get even closer. Scarbee make a wonderful keyboard multi-effects plugin I was thinking of getting for example.

I've checked the (VSTI) demo devices on the Prosoniq website as there's some overlapping with the Neuron's processing (Prosoniq is the main developer of the engine)
very pleasing results imho - much better than I had expected from the mags examples and sound demos.

cheers, Tom

On 2005-10-26 14:01, stardust wrote:

On 2005-10-20 05:32, astroman wrote:

Since I recently aquired it, I happen to fiddle a lot with Zarg's Quantum Wave - and I can assure I could have replaced any of the Neuron's sounds in your examples with an equivalent, even in a better quality (regarding the synth engine),

...and I honestly doubt that.
Not because i disregard John Bowens extraordinary synth design capabilities,
Not because I dont believe in your mastership in sound design,.....

On 2005-10-20 05:32, astroman wrote:
...Since I recently aquired it, I happen to fiddle a lot with Zarg's Quantum Wave - and I can assure I could have replaced any of the Neuron's sounds in your examples with an equivalent, even in a better quality (regarding the synth engine), but that isn't the point at all

the Neuron is the first sound engine introduced to public that features a completely different way of encoding the specs of audio models

it is at least as groundbreaking as the cascade filter...

THAT is the proper quote - and WHY do you think I wrote some letters in boldface ???
... btw it continues fairly similiar to your arguments.

cheers, Tom

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-10-26 18:49 ]</font>

My german isn't so hot so I didn't bother trying to translate it for people. For those that can't read german at all, apparently the original 'sale' price for the VS was due to Hartmann owing the actual manufacturer of the product some money, and not having the funds on hand to pay immediately. So rather than going through legal proceedings the manufacturer seems to have sold the units directly and kept the proceeds to cover the debt. Not very legal, and it not only voilates normal means of contractual dispute, it also has probably saturated the market in that region for sales of legitimate stock still in other stores (hence the other stores offering similar price deals to keep units moving).

Agree with astroman's opinions above too, not good at all.

right Valis, that's more or less the story...
obviously the unauthorized 'sellout' was performed even though negotiations about the return of the debt were ongoing, according to Hartmann with reasonable prospects of success.

nevertheless this action broke down the complete sales infrastructure, as other distributors weren't amused at all to see an end-user price below what they'd to pay Hartmann.

we all know that once a product hits market at a certain rate, you'll never gonna raise that 'mark' up again, so Stardust is completely on the wrong track with his assumptions about 'greedy sales departments'.
Which also applies to the 'generation iPod', as those folks are known to pay for their stuff... regardless if they honor the idea because it's cool or because it's technically superior

we've a tech supermarket chain in Germany who's slogan is 'avarice is gorgeous', and eventually this attitude will have consequences with a much deeper impact than the breakdown of a synth company.

though with a grain of salt, it's at least some comfort that those buyers who speculated to fiddle with the Neuron for a month and then resell it with some profit are f*cked up now...

also not amuzed at all, Tom

I've always thought 'quality is best', but there seems to be an ever increasing lean towards 'cheap is best' which seems like a real shame from many many viewpoints. I mean say you're a synth developer like Hartman. What platform do you look at?? The most powerfull? The most suitable? The one with the biggest user base? The one with the best developers? The one which is easily disguised? The cheapest? Surely not the cheapest?

On 2005-10-28 05:09, stardust wrote:
...Dont tell me that a musicstore did not know what they are doing.
This is what I call greedy.
...

But in the consequence I dont see the difference between being driven by 'cheap is best' or 'brand is best' instead of 'music is best'. In this case both collided and killed the value chain, hopefully not Hartmann Music.

now it's my turn to have misunderstood you...
you have a valid point there - for some obscure reason I forgot that Musicstore was a contractor of Hartman, too

on your last statement I'm not so optimistic - for me the madonna on Hartmann's page looks more like RIP than 'pray that it goes on'...

cheers, Tom