why we now charge for key transfers

inDSP Frank · Post by **inDSP Frank** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:41 pm

Hello PlanetZ,

our new policy to charge for key transfers raised many speculations as for why we decided to raise this fee for such service that was free until now. Let me give you some background on that step.

A "transfer" of keys was not possible in the early days of the system - and it is no scenario the copy protection was designed for in the first place. There is no "simple way" to transfer keys. There is not even ANY WAY to delete single keys from a board once the key has been stored (which would be "half of the transfer")!

Answering numerous requests ("we want to transfer keys") - this was some time in 2000 or 2001 - we were able to set up an awfully complicated but effective procedure to "transfer" such keys:

Most complicated and time consuming is deleting the key from the "source system". Actually, the only way is to delete ALL keys of the source system (by giving the board a new identity) and then re-certify every single key that was on the board before and introduce all that to our "my page" database. In order to enable us to re-certify these keys, we first need to know what keys were installed on that system beforehand... To make a long and tedious story short:

Each such transfer is a manual process that usually takes between 45-60 minutes of full attention and concentrated work. It requires several back-and-forth communication steps between us and the users. While still the user just sees the tip of the iceberg, no one knows how complicated the process really is for our support staff.

For a long time, we provided this service for free. However, lately, two major factors have changed: (a) CWA does not have the headcount of the former company any more, and (b) due to an increasing userbase and many "double purchases" because of the plug-in packs, the number of transfer requests climbed significantly.

I am sorry we can no longer provide this service for free. The fee we ask merely covers our cost and does not allow for profits. I wished the transfer process was much easier, less complicated and cheaper for everyone. However, there is no way we can simplify the process as the copy protection system is "burnt in" and fixed.

We raise the fee because we are trying to improve our support. Noone earns anything if, due to numerous "free" key transfers, we have no time left for "real support".

We also consider to charge for quality support once the board has been in operation for two years. The more users the platform has, the harder it is to offer quality support for free.

By the way - the very least support we give for "bugs" or undocumented things in our software. In fact > 80% of our support is due to (a) the user forgot to RTFM and (b) after reconfiguration of the PC, we troubleshoot Windows configurations. The longer the system is in operation, the higher is the share of Microsoft Windows support. Therefore we feel charging for support of systems > 2 years is a fair and effective way to improve our ability to provide "real support" for our own software.

Many people help themselves by reading PlanetZ and getting support in the community. We wish to encourage people to browse for answers themselves rather than going via our support for every single question.

Thanks for taking the time to understand the background of the subject.

Best regards, Frank

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:23 pm

Thanks for the infos Frank, I hope you have planned to put some words about it on your site because I doubt every CWA users know about PlanetZ or have the time to read all the threads here !

Hint is the views per thread : no such 30 000 views per thread so far.
In the same vein : could you put a line in the shop like : " Pro Tone is temporarily unavailable for purchase, sorry for the inconvenience " because since there are no words, it seems you have just forgot to put it in the shop ! ( that's what I thought in the first days !

)

remixme · Post by **remixme** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:46 pm

Fair enough, my grievances with the transfer fee are now subsiding.

But Frank, do you not think there are certain situations where the transfer fee should be waived?
I.E, Such as Failed boards and upgrades.

For example my venerable Pulsar I sometimes loses its keys. I don't know if that happens to other creamware cards or not.

You can imagine a scenario where my card loses its keys and I pay to have them reinstated,
(Or does this charge not apply to this? I imagine its the same time consuming procedure.)

Then when I buy a better creamware product, I will have to pay to transfer my plugins.

Also what happens when my board or another creamware users card fails outside of warranty, will we also be charged to transfer keys?

I would really appreciate if you could clear this up.

Thanks for coming and letting us know.

7XL · Post by **7XL** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:54 pm

So in other words the customer suffers because of an internal decision.

Your choice of copy protection seems to be the issue here. Since the beginning (Pulsar I) you (CWA) knew that transfering keys was an issue. But instead of changing it, you left it the same. Now that it becomes a "hassle" for you, you decide to charge the end user. The same people that supported your company by purchasing your product un the first place.

You make it sound like it's our (the end user) fault that you chose such a Draconian and invasive form of "copy protection". Here's a news flash "People Don't Like It." While you see it as a justified cost, most of us see it as an attempt by your company to extort money from us. While this may well not be the case, that does seem to be the prevailing thought.

Charging people for support on a card that is more than 2 years old? That is straight out wrong in my opinion. If the "common" problems are all so simple, then so should be the answers. If you look at your competitors I don't think that they charge you for support on existing products.

It appears that you have neglected one fact, some people don't like paying for services that were once free. I know that this is going to fall on deaf ears, but I felt that I should at least let my feelings be known in public.

Post by **garyb** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:55 pm

yeah,40 mins @ 35 euros is about right i'm afraid...

remixme · Post by **remixme** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:09 pm

Charging people for support on a card that is more than 2 years old? That is straight out wrong in my opinion.

Sorry to add fuel to flames here but, you're lucky if you get support on cards that are more then two years old, period. Let alone paid support. In the PC business support after two years is uncommon.

inDSP Frank · Post by **inDSP Frank** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:19 pm

@remixme
In case of card amnesia we would certainly not charge such fee. In case of upgrade, we recommend to leave the "old board" in the system. Decisions like to sell the card but keep certain keys we would see as unforced key transfer for which we charge the fee.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:25 pm

Thanks for the explanation, Frank.

I do have a question. I bought Modular III a month ago(so this is waaaaay before CW decided to charge for key transfers). Must I still buy that transfer thingie? I should think I don't have to since the person who sold me the ModIII upgrade and I sent emails requesting the transfer around the 15th of april.

Help me out, please (I want my MOD III)

Thanks,
Paul

Post by **hubird** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:28 pm

On 2004-05-12 18:54, 7XL wrote:
While you see it as a justified cost, most of us see it as an attempt by your company to extort money from us. While this may well not be the case, that does seem to be the prevailing thought.

Amasing how hard some people seem to be able to incorporate new information.
In fact you give yourself a certificate of dullness with this way of argueing.
If it is 'not the case', as you say by yourself, then be just intelligent and correct your own thinking.
Be rational, logical and by this way moral correct.
Or stay dull

Thank you Frank for explaining us CWA's motivation, what you told us verifies what some here supposed to be the case.
It's not pleasant, but that's life

_________________
Let There Be Music!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-05-12 19:52 ]</font>

powerpulsarian · Post by **powerpulsarian** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:32 pm

I find it offensive to ask me to pay for support when I payed such a high price for your product (over $1,500). For products in this price range, I expect support as part of the purchase price. If I didn't already own a card, I would not purchase one at this point based on the fact that I would be required to pay for support.

If you only charged $200 for card, then I would understand the rationale. For any high-price items I purchase, I always consider what support I will get in case I need it as part of my buying decision.

If support is no longer included in the purchase price, you need to lower prices drastically as a result IMO.

Have you considered an alternative that would allow people with a 15 dsp card free support (since it such a greater investment), while others with cheaper cards would have to pay?

As far as the plugins are concerned, I will not likely purchase too many plugins if I know I would never be able to recoup a good portion of my cost if I decide I don't like it and want to sell later. I would rather invest in something I can get my money back out of (such as hardware synth/effect or software/VST synth/effect).

Again, if you are going to charge for transfers, the price must come down even more to make people feel comfortable with a permanent decision with not much chance to resell and recoup cost. If I am buying something I know has very little resale value (meaning more risk on my part), it must be at an excellent price in the first place (otherwise I will pass on it).

remixme · Post by **remixme** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:36 pm

@remixme
In case of card amnesia we would certainly not charge such fee. In case of upgrade, we recommend to leave the "old board" in the system. Decisions like to sell the card but keep certain keys we would see as unforced key transfer for which we charge the fee.

I had a sneaky suspicision that would be the case.
Thanks very much for clearing that up.
I keep can sleep easy now!

powerpulsarian · Post by **powerpulsarian** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:38 pm

One final thought that Creamware must consider...

If you go down the route of charging for support, the least you can do for users is provide a comprehensive, searchable and accurate database of solution via your web site - and make it very user-friendly.

Also, don't make people rely on PlanetZ for help for something that should be your responsibility. PlanetZ is great, but there isn't anything here like what I mentioned above. It takes a lot of searching and weeding through threads to find answers much of the time. Creamware should be the first source for answers via their web site (especially the most typical issues), with the gurus here at PlanetZ as backup.

(This would have helped you to avoid a lot of the support questions in the first place so you wouldn't have had to go to this extreme of charging for support, which, by the way, will get you bad press and word of mouth for sure.)

Post by **Guest** » Wed May 12, 2004 7:16 pm

Couple things:

1. After 2 years your DSP card is out of warranty anyway. So should your free support time. Few years back I bought a new card and warranty was for 60,000 km. at 60,100km went to the dealer to have him look at my steering wheel my warranty is over and I had to get it fixed and paid over $600 dollars. This is life. Everything you buy has an expiration date.
2. After 2 years of using your card and getting free support. What might happen to your Creamware board to be the source of agony and requires "quality support"
Which I guess means you call the call center and someone will walk you through to solve the problem to your system (99% of the times).

I am sure if you have a serious problem that is caused by Creamware software them all users must experience the same problem since we all run the same card and same software.

PlanetZ has been superb in pointing out the obvious and helping in the detailed problems. I read many posts when good people of this forum ask new comers to look at a specific post where the matter been discussed or to RTFM.

But we all know and hate to admit we would rather speak our problem and vent our frustration to the person on the other line. Instead of reading about them and how to fix them.

3.1c and 4.0 has been as stable as they can be and many here will tell you the same.

If you have a problem that others don’t experience then your problem is with the host system.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Wed May 12, 2004 7:25 pm

Good support ideas Powerpulsarian, but you may have noticed that there is often a gap on the affairs of Planet Earth between "ideal" and "actual".

Also, it may just be a crazy peculiarity of mine, but I base my plug-in purchasing decisions on their use in my music rather than potential resale value.

I find that good new plugin always results in a few pieces easily "falling out of" the new device since I am so inspired. That means I immediately recoup all expenses. If you are looking to recoup money on an eventual resale of the product I can see your profit magins are very thin and this will be a problem for you...

And be careful which VSTi you decide to buy (instead of CWA plugins) since some of them cannot be resold at all.

And 7XL: Your criticisms of CWA could equally be applied to about 90 per cent of businesses. In that regard I can't really see what the point is other than making a general philosophical point about commerce ?

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Wed May 12, 2004 7:27 pm

I never had any problem at all with support.
Mind you, I'm in Canada and there are less of us CW users here.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed May 12, 2004 7:58 pm

On 2004-05-12 17:41, CW Frank wrote:
...By the way - the very least support we give for "bugs" or undocumented things in our software. In fact > 80% of our support is due to (a) the user forgot to RTFM and (b) after reconfiguration of the PC, we troubleshoot Windows configurations. The longer the system is in operation, the higher is the share of Microsoft Windows support. Therefore we feel charging for support of systems > 2 years is a fair and effective way to improve our ability to provide "real support" for our own software.
...

is it really THAT difficult to read - or to understand ?

btw in 'real' business, that's where software is sold (and not file-shared) an annual maintainance fee of 20% of the original investment (no matter how large, we're talking 6-figure values and up here...) is commonly accepted as a regular practice.

A 25% charge will be considered unacceptable, though - and prevent that either the product is aquired at all, or the maintainance is sacrificed in favour of a new aquisition (possibly even from the same manufacturer)

welcome into reality - and CWA please keep your product policy as is - this [ my blurb

]is not indended as a source of inspiration

cheers, Tom

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2004-05-12 23:12 ]</font>

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Wed May 12, 2004 8:02 pm

Well, I'm glad this has all been clarified. I'd hoped that the "let's sue CWA" people would shut up, but that doesn't seem to be the case yet...

I never sell anything, and I never buy anything unless I really know I need it. If 35EU is the price to cover costs, fine. I don't like copy protection systems in any case but I really think this is the best system for a hardware product.

Charging for support doesn't sound good, but what kind of support? Software support, or hardware support? If I have a hardware failure (which I just had -- my cards are still being repaired), do I have to pay for the phone calls and E-mails? Software support should be handled by FAQs and PlanetZ.

I'm sure there's going to be more arguing for some time.

Shayne

7XL · Post by **7XL** » Wed May 12, 2004 9:39 pm

To all of you that can take a single quote completely out of text.

Thanks for reminding me of why I lurked this forum for so long.

To the "personal attack", find something better to do with your time. Seeing as you obiously have no idea who I am, the basic idea that you can even refer to me as dull let's me know exactly how well you me. Not at all.

And as far as support on products over 2 years old. TASCAM US428, 3 years old, still gets free saupport. Gina24, almost 4 years old, still gets free support. M-Audio Midi-sport, Audiophile, Delta 1010, all over 2 years old and still get free support.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Thu May 13, 2004 12:08 am

Thanks again, Frank. We been given a hard time recently, trying to explain your situation to the flood of new users here who apparently seem to miss some background on CW. I'm sure your post is much more effective in calming the masses.

@ 7XL: This website, planetz, is for free, by grace of John Cooper and some financial contributions from us, long time members. Feel free to come and leave as you want

Post by **garyb** » Thu May 13, 2004 12:39 am

sonar3-needs support more than any of those,never gets free support.(by phone)

pinnacle sytems-no phone support.

other than "my card is broken can you fix it?", what do you need after two years? many roland, korg and (especially!)ensoniq synths are not even supported with PARTS after a couple of years.

what cwa is considering charging for is "quality"(you know, hand-holding) support on the phone after a card is two years old. that is not outrageous. they never said they wouldn't support(or fix) old cards. relax.

7XL-you are right. you never said anything inflmmatory. i agree that it might be better to "lose" some money in service to your customers in exchange for loyalty and goodwill. i'm not always sure that the customers always react with love even if you try to be cool as a company. anyway, either way it's cwa's call and i can see the reason for it.