Oh No, Not Again!!!!!

Astral Fridge Magnet · Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:44 am

Hi everyone. It's been a while,

Well, maybe some of you remember that I was having problems a few months ago with my new PC and 3 Pulsar cards. Basically, one of my cards wasn't getting any audio or MIDI through. I assumed and was told many things it could be.
The computer recognises all three cards and Audio and MIDI work on the other two cards no problem and I have 16 DSPs (Two Pulsar 2 cards and one Pulsar 1).
Eventually, I decided that the Pulsar card was the problem so removed it and returned it to Germany for repairs. They told me there was nothing wrong with it, which in fact was true because stupid me should have first tested it on another machine before sending it off for repairs. After some time and expense, I got my card back (actually Creamware gave me another one). Before installing it in my music pc i tested it on another PC and saw that everything was normal. I have now put it in the music machine with the two other cards and lo and behold the problem I had originally was there again. No doubt there was nothing wrong with the original card. So what the F##K could the problem be???????
I now assume it could be a faulty motherboard or PCI slot, but the computer shop say it is highly unlikely, otherwise the PC wouldn't work. Everything does work in a sense. As I said, I have all the DSPs I should have. Midi and Audio will work on the other 2 cards. But not on the card I installed.
The Pc shop said switch cards around, maybe it could fix the problem. So before I go through another big hassle, could anyone suggest what the problem could be before do anything?
Help!!!!

Regards and thanks in advance.

PS. Below are links to when I originally had the problem

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 0&forum=19

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 0&forum=19

PS. Could it be IRQ conflicts? If so, how would I know and what could I do about it?
I have basically a lean mean machune with no onboard soundcard enabled or modems and the like

[ This Message was edited by: Weirdo The Weird on 2003-12-13 07:49 ]

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:34 am

A long shot that maybe you have already looked at: the connector cable between cards ?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:45 am

if you want to keep your current system and don't have any use for the Pulsar One in a dedicated unit : sell it !
My choice would be to sell one of the Pulsar Two as well and take advantage of x-mas and end-of-the-year offers with PowerPulsar.

But your shop is wrong: current systems are such complex that they can run quite well with hidden errors.

My most stunning experience was with Apple though, but this could happen on any PeCee as well.

It was a memory problem with a Dimm which caused ODBC drivers to fail with a message that the system is corrupted and a file needs to be reinstalled.

Everything WAS perfectly installed (we restored an image verified on another machine) and the Dimm was the only thing that had changed recently on the failing system.
Removed the Dimm: ODBC was installed. Plugged it in again: ODBC missing

I wouldn't suggest to exchange memory now

but this is just to show HOW strange a system can behave. You'd never relate a file missing error to a mem chip, wouldn't you ?

cheers, Tom

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:55 pm

Hello WTW, a pain in the ass but as a test I would rip out all the cards and try installing only the one that appears to have problems and see how it goes on its own. Could it be a config problem with how many midi devices are allowed to be used?

PS how are you going with the routing side of things (the big mixer vs stm2448 thing)? Did you manage to get it worked out ok?

Astral Fridge Magnet · Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:55 pm

I don't know how, why or what but I placed all the cards down one PCI slot lower, plus changed the order and eureka they all work properly. At fucking last!!!!!
Pardon my language. But it has been months of frustration!!!
Let me also add that I found the thermaltake case quite a bastard to work with!!. Extremely fiddly and not straightforward(at least for an idiot like me). Placing the Pulsar cards needed quite a lot of push and I was nervous that I would accidentally break either the cards or the motherboard. There was no being gentle or careful with handling the cards. And putting the screws in to hold the cards in place was a bugger too. Anyway, it seems to be working now. Though I hope with my rough handling I haven't caused any long term damage. I even touched the gold contact points with my fingers, which apparently you shouldn't do.

Bye
PS. No, I haven't been able to figure it out yet bassdude. The Big Mixer thing that is. Though I haven't been working with Pulsar for a while. Partly out of frustration with the problems I have been having.
But now I have got everything working again, I will try again.

Astral Fridge Magnet · Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:57 pm

Finally, let me add one more point about all of this.
I spent a year or so asking questions about what would be the best motherboard, hard disks etc...After finally settling on all the components and getting it put together I had nothing but hassle, after hassle. Maybe I was unlucky. But for the last month I have been making music not on my "supercharged, amazing, tweaked to perfection, thermaltake tower 1 Gb of Corsair Ram powerhouse PC", but on a simple PC where I have all kinds of junk, such as games, internet, all kinds of software that is not related to music making at all and various peripherals attached. All the things that you shouldn't have if you want a "professional, music system." Yet despite all this, I was making music virtually, completly problem free. As an audio/midi interface I have been using a TASCAM US-122 and it did the trick. Maybe not as flexible as a Pulsar, but it got the job done. This is not a criticism of Pulsar, but of being too fussy with getting the "right stuff". I was making music on my Dell 450 and one Pulsar card for years with no problems. Since updating I have had nothing but headaches, but hopefully it has finally sorted itself out now.
You figure out what the moral of the story is.

Regards to all.

[ This Message was edited by: Weirdo The Weird on 2003-12-14 00:04 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:45 am

Moral of story = try all PCI slot combinations before sending hardware back to Creamware surely?!

peace

[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-12-14 07:46 ]

Astral Fridge Magnet · Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:52 am

Well Darkr3zin, I guess that is true. Try all PCI slots. It certainly would have saved a lot of time. I should have done that right from the start and I jumped the gun a bit by assuming the card was faulty. But as I said, I am not criticising Pulsar, just being too overly concerned about getting the "right stuff."
Plus,I want something to work without hassle. Plug PCI cards in, switch on PC and get on with the job of music making. Is that too much to expect? I find it it bizarre that changing the order of cards and changing PCI slots should make any difference at all, especially in my case where I have a PC configured solely for music and nothing else (so no unnecessary peripherals, such as modems, on board sound cards enabled etc....). Whereas, with a PC that is not optimised for music and contains stuff that is blasphemous to a serious music making set-up worked trouble free.

[ This Message was edited by: Weirdo The Weird on 2003-12-14 08:06 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:58 am

But you forget that 99.96% (at a rough guess) of motherboards (or full PCs) sold are not destined to do anything meaningful with audio other than run Directsound game audio or MP3 playback. So it's up to us to troubleshoot our own systems.. and yes, you're exactly right that this stuff is not easy. That's precisely why I have charged £30-40 per hour in the past for this kind of audio PC troubleshooting. It is very specialised. But then, so is any kind of studio setup work, or fixing an analogue synth, a TV, or a blocked toilet. So you either pay for someone else to do it, or read up and dive in like a madman..

Of course resources like Planet Z make it much easier to dive in than ever before

PS. Regarding the older PC, there was often much less problems to be had in older motherboards because they did not have a massive amount of stuff built in to the mobo - less IRQs required etc.

peace

[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-12-14 09:00 ]

Post by **hubird** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:05 pm

On 2003-12-14 07:52, Weirdo The Weird wrote:
... just being too overly concerned about getting the "right stuff."
Plus,I want something to work without hassle. Plug PCI cards in, switch on PC and get on with the job of music making. Is that too much to expect? I find it it bizarre that changing the order of cards and changing PCI slots should make any difference at all, especially in my case where I have a PC configured solely for music and nothing else

to this and other remarks and complaints in this thread: that's why I have a mac, seldom mystery problems

I saw a review in german Keyboards on perfect configured pc daw's, the price wasn't much lower than a comparable mac, so even the price argument isn't really convincing after all.
Certainty, predictability, reliability is nr one with me, check it out folks, no dirty problems in my house

Astral Fridge Magnet · Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:00 am

Maybe you are right Hubird, but I hear the new macs aren't compatible with Pulsar due to OSX and the physical problem of even installing the card in the machine anyway. I've read that the cards are too long.

Regards

Post by **hubird** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:31 am

yeah, you're right, at the moment the marriage between mac and CW (and conserning PCI voltage also other (pc) cards) is in deep crisis

But I have absolutely no doubt CW will solve the problems coz they have to, they will keep supporting the mac.
One could say I have a big mouth promoting mac now, taking into account the mac related hardware problems with CW cards, but it's not how I feel it.
As long as CW isn't ready with porting SFP to OS-X I can wait

And once they're working on it, they also will take care of the hardware problems, one plus one has to be two

Talking about marriage: it are always the most beautifull woman who need the most time making up themselves.
A man has to wait then patiently, his payment will come later

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2003-12-16 09:35 ]

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:55 am

Weirdo, I’m glad you have finally solved your problem; at last, you have your system back! Well done! I really hope to hear some of your music in the music forum soon…

Man, this is a complicated world, this of computers and audio… you should take it with more calm; if you get nervous you can’t help yourself but to get things worse.

I have gone through this traumatic hard experience you went through, myself. From ground off, I’ve got to know what I’m doing and what for… I knew nothing about computers, I just used them, period, here you have the prove:

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... orum=31&21

I have so much to thank to all those who helped me here… uffff… Nevertheless, it was exhausting… I asked sometimes questions that were never answered the way I wanted them to be answered, mainly because I wanted a clear and UNIQUE answer… kid of: “BUY THIS MOTHERBOARD”, but in fact, there are hundreds of answers for the same question, because there are virtually hundred of ways of solving a problem. I wanted for everything to be simpler, but computers for audio, as life itself, are not simple things, they are very complex.

I would like to make a clear distinction between “complex” and “complicated” nevertheless. Machines are “complex” because they have thousands of parameters you have to understand and manage to get it all working right, human beings are “complicated” because this is the nature of human mind.

Weirdo, I remember I have told you to LEARN by yourself what is needed and what is not needed before getting into it, not trusting people just like that, because they have found solutions for themselves. Listening to people can be very confusing, because they give you SEVERAL solutions… and above all, because they are ALL RIGHT solutions. If you would have used your time learning about and would have build your computer by yourself as I so strongly recommended you, you would be a knowledgeable person about computers, you would have your system working properly sooner, and you would have not to go through all this ordeal.

You cannot pretend to get to know something as complex as DAW systems, just getting in your nerves and complaining, I think you should be a bit more happier with your fellow men here in the Z, that gave you so many answers... You should take it with more patience, deeply analyzing the different situations till you get exactly what you need (because you understood it by yourself, and not because you believed what people in the Z, told you).

Perhaps, this seems out of the scope and you may think I’m answering something you have not asked for. Well, I think totally the opposite way. I think I’m getting to the very point, and the point is this: “patience” – “direct knowledge of your system” – “much reading of reviews and expert advices in full” – “questions to forums” – “visiting shops and talking to the sellers to get some advices” – “WAIT for the right moment to buy” – “get to know EXACTLY which is the way you have to configure your system, before building it” – “build it yourself so you know what is where and why. Nobody will do this job better than you anyway”.

Well, finally, I want to sincerely congratulate you cos there is something you don’t miss, and this is perseverance!

_________________
Music is the most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*

[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2003-12-16 10:56 ]

Astral Fridge Magnet · Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:02 pm

Well, Hi again Nestor,

Thank you for your lengthy reply. I guess I came across as nervous and agitated in my postings. unfortunately, it is in my character to be like that (Italian origins- if that is any explanantion). Maybe I have the unrealistic expectation that I want things to work straight out of the box with no hassles or tweaking (well maybe just a bit of tweaking, after all it is a computer). My brother, who happens to be a computer wiz, tells me the same as you -build my own. I'd be better off for it. Though I argue that for someone who has little knowledge in this area, it could turn out to be an expensive flop. If things go wrong, then I would need to replace things again.
The computer where I have my Pulsar cards installed was built by a shop, but as you know things didn't work as they should have at first and it turned out to be a lengthy, frustrating ordeal which also cost me a lot of unnecessary expense. Because of the type of warranty I had from the shop, they wouldn't allow me to open the case myself, otherwise the warranty would be void. So it meant going to the shop each time and I had to go by taxi. Then because my warranty had expired on my Pulsar card, had to pay for the cost of repair for that too. However, it turned out that there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.
In the end, the shop finally agreed to allow me to open the case and switch cards around myself (I guess they were just sick of me going in all the time). So you could argue that by finally getting my hands "dirty" and doing the work myself, I eventually solved the problem myself too. But what an ordeal!!!! I found the thermaltake case extremely fiddly to work with. I have an old Dell machine which I have placed and removed things such as CD ROM drives and soundcards with no problem whatsoever. The Thermaltake was a different matter. And because I found it hard to work with I got frustrated and mishandled my cards. I had to apply a lot of pressure just to get the cards in. I could see the motherboard bending slightly. I was told that it may damage the board as boards are made up of numerous fine layers which could crack and problems may not always easily show up and if they do they are hard to pin point. The Pulsar cards were also handled roughly due partly to frustration and the fact that they were not easy to install. Normally I handle these things with extreme care and by the sides but it was so hard that I was holding them in all manner of fashion. I even bent the capacitors on one card (I bent them back into shape again which you shouldn't do because of the nature of metal when you keep bending it , it will break eventually) plus touched the gold connector.
Everything seems to be working fine so far, but will this always be the case? Have I caused any long term damage? Only time will tell.
To sum up- the positive side of doing things myself is that I finally solved the problem , but the disadvantage is that maybe I caused more due to my mishandling of things when it got too awkward.
Finally Nestor, thanks for always being helpful and taking an interest in my hassles. It is people like you who help make Planet Z such a resourceful and helpful place to visit.

Best Wishes For Christmas and The New Year

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:23 pm

Hello Werdo.
I too have Italina blood, and know what this means...

We have a hot temper, haven't we?

Well, I'm really sorry you have to go through all this problems. I whish you were near my home, I would have done it myself for you.

Regarding the Thermaltake, I can't understand why it is not suitable for you... It is so good, big, lots and lots of space and drives goes in and out in just 2 or 3 seconds. Aren't you using it the wrong way or something?

The important thing is that your machine is now running well, fortunately

I would like to leasten to some music from you, this would be very nice.

Me too, send you my best wishes for this 2004 man, have a nice time and enjoy for this Christmas time.