PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:48 pm**

dragonfly wrote:This may be discussed somewhere else, so before you flame me, I'm sorry if I posted this superfluously.

I've already expressed my concerns about the need for a 64 bit Vista driver for the Scope platform, but something else just occured to me; SonicCore are charging money for Scope 5.0 and the updated drivers. Fine, I can live with them charging money for an updated version of the *software*, but am I right in assuming that they will not release a free-of-charge Vista *driver* for Scope 4.0 users? And if so, will they also not release an updated Windows XP driver for people who want to use Cubase 4.1?

What other company do you know of that charges money for *drivers*?

If anyone has anything relevant to add or if there has been an official statement from SonicCore, I would be most grateful if you posted it here.

I'm going to upgrade to 5.0 in either case, but I expect there are a lot of people who don't want to pay almost €200 to get an updated driver. Personally, I think it's appalling. If this turns out to be correct, I intend to voice my sincere protest to SonicCore about this, and I would expect every other Scope user to do the same.

Idid write abd Why do you pay 200 $ while europeans pay 198 $
Currency
198 Euro = 292.907 US Dollar

ITS TOO MUCH
Cheers!

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:08 pm**

Albatorus wrote: Idid write abd Why do you pay 200 $ while europeans pay 198 $
Currency
198 Euro = 292.907 US Dollar

ITS TOO MUCH
Cheers!

It's not S|C's fault that the Dollar is being (purposely?) devalued. Otherwise everyone would just buy the $200 option (that would be £100 for me yippee).

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:27 pm**

i have a nice cheese to go with that whine....

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:47 am**

X CUSE MY FRENCH
but you DONT understand my point !!!

see it the other way Around !!
200 US Dollar = 135.392 Euro

SONIC CORE GmbH
DSP Audio Technology
Siegdamm 32
53721 Siegburg
Germany

That s NOT in USA

got it ??

I ll have chees + whine + kate s pie

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:37 am**

Sorry but you're not making sense - the update is €198, not $198. No-one has said the update is $200 from what i can see.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:49 pm**

I don't understand you guys. Creamware has been rescued from the brink of annihilation, and they're offering free Vista-compatible software updates to anyone who owns 4.5 - a great deal. Those who don't own 4.5 have an opportunity to upgrade at a quite reasonable price and receive instruments and effects that weren't included in 3.X or 4.0.

Surely you don't expect the programmers at Sonic|Core to work for free?!

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:09 pm**

completely agreed

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:43 pm**

Honestly I'm surprised noone's asked for mowed lawns and a nice cooked dinner as well.

The level of conversation here is still MILES ahead of what it is on many other popular music forums out there (not naming any names)...

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:49 pm**

at least we could move this "why don`t we get all software plug-ins for free" discussion a bit to the side and discuss some interesting stuff.

At the end nobody is forced to upgrade to either vista nor sfp 5.0.
It depends on the users needs. Everybody is free. So you can spend the 200 bucks on beer or some other stuff.

Vista driver and sfp 5.0 is free for all 4.5 owners!

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:07 am**

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:16 pm**

hifiboom wrote: At the end nobody is forced to upgrade to either vista nor sfp 5.0.
It depends on the users needs. Everybody is free. So you can spend the 200 bucks on beer or some other stuff.

Vista driver and sfp 5.0 is free for all 4.5 owners!

1) Indeed is true - if one doesn't like it - action, not words
2) It was indeed that 5.0 news that prompted me to migrate away from the DSP cards - if you noticed, I put both of my cards for sale.
3) The main problem is that, , well, staying with the platform is kind of expensive. You have to think about the cost of ownership of a product - there are of course, lot of factors, if you want to be accurate, like power consumption, depreciation (both of the card and your computer), cost of support, etc. But for simplicity's sake, in the case of Scope, it's pretty much initial cost + upgrades + cost of plugins

4) Initial cost it was pretty much OK - comparable to PowerCore and UAD, one got a lot more in the initial package.
5) The cost of plugins and upgrades was always a bit steep.

a) DSP based plugins are always a bit more expensive than native plugins, because of the smaller market of a specialty platform - Strike one
b) The cost of upgrade - 200 euro to go from 4 to 4.5 - I couldn't quite justify it, since 4.0 worked pretty well. Then on top of that, the exchange rate situation... I am talking for myself, but in my experience, here in the USA, stuff from Europe have always been more expensive for one reason or the other - right now is the weak dollar, but in the past may have been inflation, etc... And the situation is a handicap against wonderful products like the Scope system and John Bowen's Hardware Solaris (at US $3400 is really at a disadvantage). Strike two.

c) And on top of that, they are PCI cards - true, there is still some life left on the form factor, but the clock is ticking nonetheless... at some point in the near future, we won't be able to get computers with PCI slots - heck, it is now true for Mac computers, so.... Strike three.

6) So with a lot of pain in my heart and a lot of seller's remorse, I decided to sell...

Yes, the Prodissey is probably 10x times better than the Oddity, but for a hobbyist like me, $69 USA is a great deal... and it's good enough .

Prodissey is 200 euro - around $280 US - for 100 dollars more I got the Arturia collection - good enough for me... And I could go on... my new audio interface provided the Vista drivers for free - plus it includes some DSP effects, to boot. Arturia already supports Vista, etc...

7) so what does it all means? Well, it was just my long winded way of saying look at your needs and decide accordingly - Sonic Core has to do business and for the most part it's reasonable a dedicated DSP environment - but if it you needs differ from that (in my case, it is just too expensive for a hobbyist to support) well, vote with your feet... move away, go on to greener pastures... Complaining on a board accomplishes nothing for that sort of thing. I miss the CW/Sonic Core, but I think it was the right decision for me... YMMV

8) That said, I may come back to the platform... The Plugiator seems to be what Noah should have been, specially price wise.

That said I am still very fond of SFP - If I win the lottery, my first buy will be 3X14 DSP cards! Plus the Plugiator, plus every ASB (except for the organ one), plus every plugin, plus the hardware Solaris, etc! :-)

Well see...

V

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:10 pm**

well put vmartell.

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:31 pm**

if you heard the Prodyssey, but still can get along with the G-Media thing then Scope is indeed the wrong choice, I absolutely second your decision.
A situation that reminds on playing a vintage Fender Jazzbass in a combo on a German Bierfest

...3) The main problem is that, , well, staying with the platform is kind of expensive. You have to think about the cost of ownership of a product - there are of course, lot of factors, if you want to be accurate, like power consumption, depreciation (both of the card and your computer), cost of support, etc. But for simplicity's sake, in the case of Scope, it's pretty much initial cost + upgrades + cost of plugins

but you really cannot be serious on that one

I have 3 Pulsar Ones and a TDat16
the only update I ever bought was the Propack together with Version 3.x, which gave me a ton of devices very cheap, the ownership of the TDAT entitled to a 50% off or so for the Scope Tripledat module.

these cards are a fullblown digital mixer, a digital router/patchbay, I have a trustworthy emulation of a PPG Wave (but without the annoyances of the original), a handful of Lexicon class reverbs/delays, something that can replace a Space Echo, a bass amp to replace an Ampeg, a Mastering Compressor that is so good and easy to handle that I might as well charge for that service, though all it takes is a bit of fader up/down, and a soundquality that Dark Side of the Moon made me just yawn recently
I haden't listened to it for decades and when a mint original vinyl crossed my way I said ...well, why not - it's a milestone in audio...

It runs in a box that cost me basically 100 Euro - ok, I pimped it a little bit with parts for bragging like a Tualatin instead of a Celeron, a flashdisk instead of a rotating one, silent PSU etc - but that has few influence on Scope.

Yes, I spent a little bit on devices, in fact probably close to 3k Euro, but most of that was for pure fun.
I liked the sound of the devices, I really enjoyed them - but of course there was no need to have all and every Scope synth - I have so many, that I cannot even play 10%. I don't switch presets - I change the synth

The 'productive' devices mentioned further up were extremely affordable.
They don't have to be shy in the presence of Sonnox or Waves stuff...

Scope gives me a worldclass digital/analog audio switchboard including up to 16 virtual Adats for (say) roughly 6K Euro overall - the best investment I ever made

cheers, Tom

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:32 pm**

vmartell wrote:
hifiboom wrote:
Yes, the Prodissey is probably 10x times better than the Oddity, but for a hobbyist like me, $69 USA is a great deal... and it's good enough .

Prodissey is 200 euro - around $280 US - for 100 dollars more I got the Arturia collection - good enough for me... And I could go on... my new audio interface provided the Vista drivers for free - plus it includes some DSP effects, to boot. Arturia already supports Vista, etc...

V

For the same price of prodysee you can get the SCOPE '4.5 Synths and Samplers pack' wich includes Prodysee, pro12, minimax, etc and i'm sure much more then what the Arturia bundle includes in both quality and quantity. And then you'd get Vista upgrade for free. With sufficient dsp power you can buy less powerfull computers saving money when forced to upgrade computer, and i'm sure the scope dsp cards will out live the computer anyhow so it is better investment imo, plus it can be expanded threw second-hand market at low price. There is a serious bang for the buck factor with SCOPE.

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:39 pm**

astroman wrote:if you heard the Prodyssey, but still can get along with the G-Media thing then Scope is indeed the wrong choice, I absolutely second your decision.

<snip>

Indeed a great setup - I wish I had it.

Like I mentioned before I appreciate Scope plenty, so preaching to the converted here. It's only that I feel that my new setup gives me a less expensive path to the future - maybe I am wrong. Maybe I will be back... but If I do, it would be either with the Plugiator, in short/midterm or even the PCIe version of Scope when and if it comes out - it will probably be as expensive to maintain, but, well, that should last us another good 10 years or even more; PCIe is a very future proof technology with good provisions to expand without sacrificing backward compatibility. We'll see!

Thnx for your very kind reply.

V

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:51 pm**

who actually uses vista for audio work? What's the benefit of vista over XP for audio stuff? I've tried vista and it's nothing ground breaking. It's like swimming with lead weights on, not needed to get the basic job done. From the computers i know - video editors, graphic designers, audio dudes and office folks, they all use XP.

I would of thought vista drivers would a medium-low priority? I rather pay someone to further develop SFP - eg. new features, better stability, improve the UI, optimise stuff, new plugins, new hardware etc. I just reckon they can better manage resources on more appropriate projects and endeaviours. If SFP5's selling point is vista drivers then GOD save them...

Did anyone actually do any market research at soniccore? *shakes head*

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:19 pm**

Sounddesigner wrote:

For the same price of prodysee you can get the SCOPE '4.5 Synths and Samplers pack' wich includes Prodysee, pro12, minimax, etc and i'm sure much more then what the Arturia bundle includes in both quality and quantity. And then you'd get Vista upgrade for free.

That's the Use-Audio bundle, right? Yes it is a good deal - so much it triggered a remorse/regret episode - however, I was already committed to my decision, so had to tough it up.

But as we know they might be some problems with upward compatibility between the Use-Audio plugins and Scope 5.0, so were are back at to apprehension about the future.

I don't think this is the SonicCore deal. right? SonicCore's own shop lists the synth and sampler package at 600 euro, with only

MINIMAX DSP Plug-In
Profit-5 DSP Plug-In
B2003 DSP Plug-In
Modular III DSP Plug-In
Vectron DSP Plug-In
STS-5000 DSP Plug-In

(link)

http://www.sonic-core.net/shop/product_ ... ack-2.html

Sounddesigner wrote:
With sufficient dsp power you can buy less powerfull computers saving money when forced to upgrade computer, and i'm sure the scope dsp cards will out live the computer anyhow so it is better investment imo, plus it can be expanded threw second-hand market at low price. There is a serious bang for the buck factor with SCOPE.

You are 100% correct, Scope has outlived many computers and indeed in my setup outlived three of them... Problem is the coming move to PCIe - Heck, correct me if I am wrong, but most modern Macs don't have PCI slots, just PCIe... of course, you can keep an old box just for Scope, but that's something I did not wanted to do. YMMV

Again - don't want to make a big polemic - I am still an Scope fan and will remain even if SonicCore dissaperars or some other caretaker comes in the future... it's just, that at the moment the new setup makes more sense for me - YMMV

So I want to re-iterate my advice for the free driver crowd - let SonicCore do business - they have a great product. If you think it's not for you, well, do what you have to do, but SC has to survive.

Thnx for your comments.

V

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:38 pm**

vmartell , that's NOT the Use-Audio bundle i was speaking of, that's Sonic Cores bundle and you can purchase the 4.5 upgrade more then once to get Both Synths&Sampler/Mix&Master packs at very low price.

I do understand where your comming from regarding PCI slots but there still are computers being made with them ATM so that and Vista support should carry most SCOPE users far into the future. And i trust S/C will come with hardware upgrade at Some point if not i myself will still try to get many years out of SCOPE. I've been threw about 3 computers the last 6 years so i'd rather put my trust in dsp power for sure, and i love the SCOPE sound. But again i do see your point and i know each musician has to do what's right for themselves. I won't preach to the choir about SCOPE anymore

, good luck!

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:12 pm**

I'd like to offer another perspective: The Scope platform is a bargain. I wanted a Creamware rig for years, but could never justify the quite substantial outlay for two or three cards and a powerful computer.

I was finally able to buy a Scope system because used card prices have dropped so dramatically - a 6 DSP Pulsar II goes for about €200/$300 if you shop carefully. And I was able to build a reasonably spec'd computer to run Scope for about $300 after pulling some RAM from another machine and using an extra XP license that was going unused.

In fact, my total outlay has been under $1000 for the dedicated computer, 12 DSPs, and the 4.5 upgrade. I run Reaper as my main sequencing package and the system runs like a dream.

The REAL benefit of Scope is that I always know (more or less) how much DSP power I have remaining. If I had chosen an all-software solution running on a generic PC, I'd always have found myself running out of CPU cycles at the most awkward times, and Scope synths simply sound better than the vast majority of inexpensive VSTi softsynths (I simply don't have the money to blow $200 on a single good softsynth).

I'm happy.

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:08 pm**

if you are happy with the native stuff, there is no need to use scope.

Me for example, I always wanted a scope back in 1999 but could never afford that card especially the scope professional for 10000 or how much it was....

Now today the cards have become very relative cheap for what they do and when you go second hand you get them even cheaper. In earlier days they sell the plug-ins solo, now they have cheap bundles... 5 nice emeulations for 199 isn`t exactly what I call expensive.

I`m very happy and proud to be an owner of these cards, which stand for there quality. If you are happy with native stuff you can get it cheaper but not in that quality.
native half way decent synths have nearly zero value for me, even if I can get them for 50 bucks, when I never use them they are worthless.

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SonicCore charging money for a driver?

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SonicCore charging money for a *driver*?

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SonicCore charging money for a driver?

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