PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Hi Tucos,

I do understand your rant as I am gone through this myself (well... more silently even if I have spend more than 7000 euro!!!). Most of them are rights!

The point is not to fight for our customer right (you 're perfectly intitled for yours to go legal if you need) but to what else would deliver me what XTC in its current incarnation deliver ? The answer for me have been NOTHING (Thanks to J Bowen, Celmo, some others 3rd party developers and ... PlanetZ users which have increased the value of the platform to me!)! So I learnt to live with XTC limitations in order to get the best out.

This answer is not a way to say you "f..off and don't bother me with your rant" as a part of me understand your position, but to let you understand that some of us are gone to the same feeling and in the end have found a way to work with this ... positively.

Planetz spirit is more on trying to help each others to get the most out from the platform, and is biaised to this point. Don't expect to much support on rant!

Wouldn't I be happy to have a flawless XTC? Yes for sure!
Wouldn't I be happy to have from time to time advise from creamware about a "recommended PC hardware"? I'll send them chocolate for the new year for this!

So if like me the answer is that there is no solution which can replace your Scope, find a way to get the most out of it and share your solution as we try to share ours.

Cheers

Michel

On 2006-01-05 09:20, Bifop wrote:

I for one don't understand the love of the SFP mode wich I find cumbersome to say the least. It's no game for me to be able to cable eveything to everywhere.

This is a REAL photo-machine, that has been build with LEGO, its little pieces has allowed to go as far as building this...

This one is going to be the chasis for a beautiful lorry that will be remote controlled...

And this is Van Gogh's most famous work, also build in LEGO...

THIS IS THE MODULAR CONCEPT IN SCOPE SYSTEM. You are simply free to do whatever you want. You can build a photo-machine, a picture, a lorry, whatever. It is strange to hear somebody complaining becuase it has something with more posibilities. Sorry man, but this is a professional board, no matter the price. Your statement is like: "I don't like flowers this way, they are too complex, please, remouve everything and make it in a single piece, with plastic, and without the need to water them, as I am too lazy to do it every day"... Common...

This is your concept of what you want SCOPE systems to become:



I don't like limitations, but freedom!



_________________
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*______

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2006-01-07 07:40 ]</font>

On 2006-01-07 07:39, stardust wrote:
...some of the stockyard eldest tend to emphasize the ancient good times and calm down the herd.

That should be the next rank: "stockyard elders".

no!

Poor old Pulsarians...






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2006-01-07 13:56 ]</font>

hey! i didn't authorize that photo!

Sorry Gary, I shoudn't have shown your real face to the world... Yeaaa, old Pulsarian, thanks God!

Hey spirit, that was a good one! I laughed myself outloud, you're hilarious man!

hi

a workin xtc can be usefull for all users
a workin 24/96khz can be usefull too
a workin Vdat (doesn't play when you recall a project)
etc....
it's a shame that creamware doesn't fix some prior problems and there is a request
for these from months anyway is a dreamin plattform.

alessandro

On 2006-01-07 06:48, Nestor wrote:

I don't like limitations, but freedom!

You are contradicting yourself. The truth is that by making XTC work better, Creamware would be providing even less limitations and even more freedom to users (allowing them the freedom to choose the way they prefer to work). I don’t believe anyone is saying that Creamware should abandon the SFP environment way of working. We are talking about expanding the possibilities with XTC – not limiting anything.

Also, your example with legos proves a point about efficiency and ease in the process. While there is ultimate flexibility to build whatever you want in the SFP environment (which is great for the people who want to), the time spent to do it may not be worth it for some people. Some people want a quick, simple and integrated system so they can spend more time on what they really love to do...create music. The suggestion with improving XTC mode would allow the best of both world - the ultimate in flexibility for the people who want that and a simple and more intergrated system for those who want to just focus on using the excellment Creamware synths and effect in their music creation.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: powerpulsarian on 2006-01-10 08:55 ]</font>

You would be good at doing politics, as the use you did of my own words is a good rethoric... but my words do not contradict themselves at all

my PERSONAL opinion is that anyone who doesn't get scope or thinks it's too complicated needs to learn more about gear before he/she tries to do anything with it anyway. of all the programs i've ever used, i've never seen anything so obvious and straight forward and simple. the real problem is all these peoplle thinking that plugins make them engineers, or knowing how to run a sequencer(a very complicated unnatural and convoluted device) makes them an expert on music production. there IS a reason that REAL studios cost so much money and there IS a reason to pay an engineer! there is also a reason that music is so crappy and generic these days.....it's called the cookie cutter approach....lazy "musicians" who don't want to learn to use real gear....the same as "artists" who can't be bothered with finances, who devalue the product so that musicians can't make an honest living from their craft and feed their children anymore(40 years ago, any musician with real skills, could earn a respectable living that would pay a mortgage).

HA! take that hornets nest! how do you like my stick? don't get too crazy, i have a can of this foamy poison that shoots 30 feet!(that's 10 meters to you european hornets.....)

this platform can SURELY use an update, but anyone who has a scope system with 6 or more dsps and a current sequencer with a 2ghz or faster computer who can't do top-notch work, either needs to go back to school or needs to find another hobby. period. i wouldn't say the same about ANY other platform in this price range. pt le is demo making crap as is every other solution under $15,000. that said, a great engineer will make demo making crap sound like a million dollars(even a cassette 4track!). how much more so with scope?....

couldn't agree more

imagine u make music.
imagine u want to expand your setup with DSP plugins.
Imagine u are u are used to work in a VSTi enviroment.
imagine you have three competitive platforms, but only one of them offers a broad synth AND effect range to be used as VST plugins.
Imagine if/when it doesnt work
imagine when u have a gang of ppl saying that u have to work another way than what you bought the whole thing for.
Its XTC
and i COMPLETLY understand people are dissapointed.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: piddi on 2006-01-10 17:58 ]</font>

Yes, strictly spoken you're right

I wish XTC was supported on mac.
Not for myself, I don't need it, but if XTC would work on mac without a hassle (I bet it would), I could by prove blame pc/Windows, not Creamware, for not working properly from start

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2006-01-10 20:34 ]</font>

exactly. cwa is in a no win situation, here. obviously they won't be able to advertise on the level required to compete with the m-audio/digidesign/apple monster and still develope new products that continue to seemlessly upgrade. my pulsar1 still works great next to it's powerpulsar and pulsar1 srb, from software version 1.2 to 4.5(and all those upgrades were free except for the propack, which was an option that gave the new plugins that new cards would be sold with, which was a bargain, and the current 4.5 upgrade). i'm looking forward to this forward-looking thinking continuing. in the mean time coders must be hired and paid. engineers have to be paid. production crews have to be paid(or who will build the next great card?). as a customer, cwa has supported me through mindbending transformations in computer technology and my old card is still working and productive. THIS is customer support and this is why i support them. i understand the odds against a nice product like this existing. remember cwa audio is was less than 100 people. it's less than 50.

obviously, if cwa was ONLY interested in profits with this product, things might be done differently. there is an operational philosophy to the system that is the purpose of the product. the advantages are seen through a little time and overstanding and living with a properly functioning system. a properly functioning system is REALLY easy to obtain if all the parts are working and of reasonably high quality, but one DOES need to learn a little bit. the degree of quality of parts(and the type)has something to do with performance, but not nessessarily stability. then, one must accept the concept of virtual reality(scope devices are real enough). there is an advantage to this system for a real studio, even if it's in one's home. artists of all types need a REAL studio. recording studios are run by engineers. to be a recording artist at home, one needs a REAL studio and one needs to be an ENGINEER! so, one must be willing to get real and not just be a spoiled child with a toy. this does not translate well into the exciting hype world of magazines and glamour. for musicians who know a bit about audio engineering and production, however, this platform is a miracle.

those of us who do get this point, i've come to see, really have to let others who want to have a good studio(at home or in a commercial zone) for a very reasonable price, one that can do grammy work or jingles or demos at a high quality level easily know that this thing DOES work, that it's an option worth seriously considering(and using!) <takes breath>

obviously, this product is aimed at professionals looking for a low budget alternative to protools and up and coming wannabees as well as serious amatuers. one could even make a pitch that many high-end studios could make good use of this system(i would)all these are niche markets not likely to generate tremendous amopunts of capital(why do you think pt hd is so expensive and charges for the slightest upgrade, or bugfix, if you will). if cwa was looking strictly towards profit, then scope probably wouldn't have been. the music industry is really very small and well locked up. the shame is that noah was just a little too ambitious a product at that moment(a nifty product, though and it DID sell, if it got to the market too late), and that momentum was slowed by a court-ordered firing(there was money to pay the crew, but the court said, "you don't need ALL of them" to a 35-40 person company...).

the whole push towards newer and newer products is stupid. quality products are ALWAYS useful. scope is such a product. i'm looking forward to the next version of scope to still work with old cards as well as new ones(if it's reasonably possible). xtc is cool, but it's not what the thing is about and it's always been the weakest part for technical reasons. i liked it for a while, but came to see that it was more trouble than scope mode even when working flawlessly. it all depends on what you like, of course.

personally, i don't think the ride is over, i think it's just getting going. if i'm wrong it still doesn't matter. even the works of kings are trivial. scope is very useful for making music using a computer. my machine works and would be useful for mozart or you or me or me in the future. do people with 2" 24 track studers go out and buy a new one just because theirs is from 1980? do folks with a 1176ln need a new one every year? tools don't work that way. that's consumerism. it's not a good thing. it's swinehood.

xtc cards were a mistake, an attempt to lure in the casual user, the one who insisted on using the soundblaster. even still, they work. the thing is, according to the limitations of the scope world and the vst world, there are certain things that can and can't be done. some bugs are unfixable,like the automation that must be entered in the track automation and can't be written in the text boxes. none are showstoppers. all extend the usefullness of the host computer as advertised. it's only that it is cool that one would like it to be just a little bit more. it was discontinued, however. done story.

I am aware that we are among the company of dreamers as well as do-ers here. How we express our dreams/hopes/desires and frustrations is the art of what we do.

The points that the experienced scope users here are making, including Gary, point towards the wisdom in taking the pragmatic approach, to accept the limitations of what you have and use it to its best advantage.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2006-01-10 19:13 ]</font>

I largely agree with what you say Gary. Very much so…

I totally disagree with GaryB, Astroman Stardust and Nestor... As usual I would say.

You guys are patronising the forum. Most of your contributions lately as far as I can see are just this condescending closed mind attitude of taking anybody with less than a thousand post for an amateur....

This is just plain ridiculous and unprofessional. And GaryB, give me a break with your 2 cents analysis. You must have spent too much time in a music shop. You lost the passion it seems.

Here to ask anything that is not accepted by the majority, you have to bend away, be nice and still get a cold shower by a row of pretending know-it-all giving you the lesson...
You guys need to think you're a minority. You only, understood what is audio work and SFP wonders....etc... Any xtc user is retarded because he doesn't have the need to fiddle inside the routing window.... haha.
Real engineers use Sfp.... 8-(

I really wonder who is doing MUSIC with these cards here. I'm not talking boing boing zap turn the reso knob bs....

Now of course, blame me, ridicule me. You'll have the last word, as usual.

nonsense, Bifop. i'm not against you. i've said many times that i'm ALL FOR ANYTHING that improves the platform.

i said that I like scope mode from the start (because it did EXACTLY what i wanted)and that I have found xtc to not be as useful as scope mode. i also said that scope mode is the reason that scope exists and that some like it that way. i said that one should use tools that work for them and that they shouldn't be afraid of learning more about their craft. YOU don't have to use what i use or agree with me, it really doesn't matter what EITHER of us do.

i also said that because xtc mode DOES do some things nicely, i MAKES SENSE that people would like more from it. i gave some history and explained that there are some technical issues relating to the vst standard and scope and the economic issues.

i took issue with some of the things said about cwa relating to their business practices. the way I see things, cwa has it's shortcomings but those are rarely the ones that some customers see. i think that often the complaints are uninformed, but this certainly is the fault of salespeople to some extent and some is pilot error and some is cwa's fault. as i said, however, MY experience is that cwa makes an honest effort to make a quality product.

what i did NOT say, however, was ANY personal attack or reference to YOU that should make you feel like you need a defense. if you don't like the product, I think you're crazy( ), but i don't have a problem with that PERSONALLY. i think you should use what you like. use a product that works for you, professionally or otherwise.

as far as passion, well, passion is latin for suffering(from "passus" and the greek "pathos" words meaning suffering). there is plenty of suffering in life, i'll take a pass on the extra suffering in music or whatever, thanks. if you mean COMMITMENT, LIVICATION, DRIVE or similar, then it's obvious, you don't know anything about me. you CAN see that i'm enjoyng responding to you. really, i'm just doing what you told me to, quote, "Now of course, blame me, ridicule me. You'll have the last word, as usual."(although if we're cool, i'm happy to share the last word with you, or, if you really want it, you can have it...).