Ok, let's just chalk up Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Mile Davis, Larry Coryell as total hacks with no reason to exist then?
Well Miles i would class as jazz, the others i don't really know, but i know they are fine musicians, not hacks. A good musician however doesn't necessarily produce good music - it might be clever, perfectly arranged, performed etc, but if it disengages my brain as anything with the word 'fusion' in it seems to do, then i'm not going to endure it regardless of the pedigree. i just don't get it.
i have the same feeling about 12-tone music. Schoenberg's no hack - he can compose. His music is very, very clever. And you know what i still find it unlistenable. i can't sit there stroking my chin throughout - it needs to engage me.
PS. i saw Squarepusher for the first time in a concert with the London Sinfonietta performing works by Reich, Aphex Twin (arranged for orchestra), Jamie Liddell, Ligeti, Cage, Varese with films by Chris Cunningham. What a fantastic night that was.
Jazz is a multi-genre music that started a long time ago and has split from its old origins in many ways. You can no longer talk about jazz as you would with some more traditional, structured music styles as it has diversified itself, extremely much. You’ll find such an abysmal difference between jazz groups that for most people “this” such and such particular song is not jazz. So when you talk about jazz, in most cases you need to specify which kind you are talking about. Of course, I understand we are here talking about it in a general way.
Before trying answering your questions Paul, I have to say that Fusion-Jazz is my music, my school and my way since I was born, and it is not a learned thing for me, it is rather something that turns around in the torrent of my blood!
There is no instrument in the world that jazz has not used to its advantage. All instruments from all nations around, have been used, and in the most incredible ways. It doesn’t matter how strange or unknown an instruments may be, it has been used in some sort of jazz, somewhere. There are instruments that have been made for a single song, or just for an album, instruments that represent only themselves, because there is only one of them in the world. I have seen a couple of them to my amusement and surprise, and even made some myself.
There is no music in the world, not represented by jazz, because “all” genres of music, whichever they may be: most strange, far away, hidden, bizarre and old, will anyway be found in jazz.
I think that a strong distinction about Jazz is to say that Jazz music is not “fashion” music... it will never die nor stop being played because of that.
There is jazz in all nations of the world, and all of them have been able to play “their” way of music, jazz is so adaptable to what you feel, who you are and what surrounds you.
Absolutely true: Jazz music is the less known music on earth, because it is not popular, not commercial and many groups pass away playing and playing, but never record a single song before they disappear...
I know what I’m talking about, as I have been in many nations, and played jazz-fusion with Arabs, Africans, French, English, Scottish, Belgian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Russian, Spanish, German, Tibetan, American, Italian, and many more people’s nations, and of course, been Argentinean, with most nations of the Latin-jazz parade. Being around for such a long time, we have nevertheless not recorded a single song... We played out of love for music, but without any important contribution so to live in a dignifying way, you think about what you’re going to eat tomorrow, not about when you’re going to record a song... We stayed late at night and returned some times to our respective homes walking with our instrument loaded in our backs, this is the jazz life of most jazz musicians, unfortunately.
Nevertheless, the best, most amazing musicians of the world are good jazz players, by all means. They can actually play anything you put them on; not just technically, I’m also talking about “EXPRESSION”, most articulated musicians are to be found in jazz music as well, this has been my personal experience.
Paul questions:
1 - What is it about jazz that turns you off?
Well, there are many so called jazz players groups and jazz music that I can hardly bear! And this is because I dislike the “note-competition” approach to music, which happens particularly in some jazz-clubs, where players go to show themselves up. Instrument-rush, the luck of feelings, coldness, extreme techniques without expression, which of course, for me personally it is NOT real jazz, but “little-boy-fashion”. Fortunately there is all the rest to listen at!
2. What do you think could make jazz more interesting to your ears?
Go to live concerts, and concentrate as much as possible in following what is going on, do not talk, concentrate in following the feelings of every solo and performance.
Listen to records with the kind of jazz you like, as there is jazz for absolutely every one. I assure you, that there is one for you! The problem is to find this music out, because these strange records are hidden somewhere, and quite difficult to find.
3. Do you really think that jazz is so different than a lot of electronic music going around that thrives on improvising with a controller instead of a "real" instrument?
Yes, I think jazz is very different in its approach about how to feel life, compared to some most popular genres. Jazz comes from mostly and ultimately, pain, while many techno or dance music (which I understand you are referring to), comes from superficial feelings, so their background is completely different. Don’t take “superficial” as being bad, bad is bad, and superficial is simply superficial.
Just my thought
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
Come on, Nestor! Letès drown this place with FUSION!
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's kinda contradictory, no? You understood Ligeti, Cage and the like?
Even with Squarepusher playing, it is hardly easy music to grasp, right?
That's exactly my point. i have stuff that people would class as complete noise, and yet some artists and genres just 'wind me up' (as we say in the England), so i don't think i can be accused of dismissing a genre (i would never dismiss anything - except Musicals perhaps, they're awful ) it's just that for whatever reason it doesn't engage me. i can't explain why. i also like Prog Rock so polyrhythms in a rock context aren't alien to me. i love Ligeti, Harry Partch and Glenn Branca so no dissonant chord in the world is going to offend me, so what gives? i dunno. i do try from time to time though, so i haven't given up yet.
So yes i am a bit contradictory within myself, but i'd almost rather have full-on jazz than the blandness (as i see it) of jazz-fusion, where people widdle about for seemingly hours showing how good they are on said instrument (yawn).
I do hate solos that go on forever. That's why mine are rarely longer than 16 bars.
It's as though those guys have something to say but don't know when to shut up (I'm thinking of people like Mike Stern who has the fabulous knack of boring me to pieces)
But I cant let a thread like this go past without saying after hearin Lady Day all other female vocalists just seem to me to be also rans, and just cant compete.
Seriously, in my opinion nothing compares to her tone and feeiing. And when backed by Lester Young..... OMG Jazz heaven
Jazz is something to discover, if you have the chance to get a friend which knows about it, and can teach you what to listen at, what “musical-phrases” are, how to understand them, how improvisation gets its way. It is mesmerizing. For most people, this is a rule: “If you are not into jazz (as a listener not as a player), it is because you don’t know it enough”.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
Sorry Nestor, but for me as soon as you start having to know anything about how an art form is created then you've missed the point of the art, and could also been seen as snobbery:
"I don't like jazz."
"Ah, that's because you don't understand it."
i don't understand what's going on in Ligeti or Partch, but i know i like them. When i first heard Glass i had no idea what was going on - now i do know but when i as a kid it was the gut-level first.
i work in television and i would say an analogy was this:
How many people know the mechanics of what makes a good edit. Probably not many. Show those same people a film purposely badly edited and they will not enjoy it, but they won't be able to tell you why. Show them the same film properly edited and they will say it's much better, but still may not be able to tell you why.
People like what they like and no amount of 'education' will change that. i have all the 'education' and diversity of musics to definitely be in a position to like jazz, and yes i appreciate the mechanics of it but, for whatever reason, i don't enjoy listening to it: two different processes.
I had a thought about the possible etymology of the word 'jazz' yesterday. I think that one idea is that is comes from the French, 'jaser', meaning 'to converse'
A friend of mine is rather rich and into food. Not in a "10 pies and 10 cokes" way, but as an "experience". She raved to me some time ago about an experience she had in Singapore with some oddly-named soup dish which turned out to have been made primarily with turtle penises.
I told her I thought the whole thing completely ridiculous and she just laughed. But it disturbs me since I think it's just pure decadence and in some ways a quite obscene distortion of the concept of food.
Which is where jazz comes in - modern jazz that is. To me it is almost identical to a lot of so-called modern classical: dischordant chaotic noise. It's only music in the same way as radio static and bashing tin cans is music: a collection of semi-random noises which has been graciously allowed to be classified as music..
It goes hand in hand with a lot of modern art: it's interesting and valuable only so long as a chic element is willing to support it and give it legitimacy. It has no deeper resonance or meaning. Given a little pressure, or a turn of fashion, it will dissolve to nothing.
"I don't like jazz."
"Ah, that's because you don't understand it."
I understand your point; nevertheless, I myself have been trained on how to listen to certain kind of music like classical one for instance. When somebody started to teach me about how it works, about the structures, chords, the richness of the instruments, their tessitura, etc., I started to feel it differently, till I got it by my own hands and loved it to death.
Then I had a friend called “Pachi”, Pachi was a stubborn, inflexible kid of 17 years old that would swear by classical, and would hate jazz. I told him that if he could pay attention to jazz harmony, he would get crazy and would love it... No way... He would react in anger against me every time I mention he would like jazz... which was also quite a bit of fun, because of the situation. Well... one day, I went to his studio-room before his class started with his piano teacher, and let written 13 heavy jazz chords in a given progression. Two days after, Pachi came playing amazing arpeggios with those chords, and he started to like and play jazz, very much in the style of Bill Evans... we both couldn’t stop laughing and enjoying this.
Then I had a girl which was a pianist as well, and we became quite good friends. Again, I taught her about Stravinsky, she hated Stravinsky, and nevertheless, she understood better the music after a couple of years, and loved it much. Then I composed a full concert for double bass and piano, and we went on and on playing in Europe, and the music was around Stravinsky music, as it was my classical idol when I started composing, so? That’s it.
"I don't like jazz."
"Ah, that's because you don't understand it."
Is a statement that may be true, or may be false. It all depends on people. What I mean, is that there is not a fix rule on these things.
Music is a language, and as a language, you can say anything at all, but then, you don’t always understand what it is written. In literature, there are people that write in quite a simple way, simple stories and so everybody understands them. Then there are writers which are culturally superior, because they know much more in terms of “words”, structures, they have travelled the world, know probably several languages, etc., so these kind of people are more difficult to understand and follow as they tend to write in a dipper, more sophisticated way. Then you have those with a scientific, technical, structural, medical knowledge, and then you really need to be educated for a long, long time before even starting one of their books, like for instance, books on Quantum Mechanics... Then you have philosophy and spirituality like the one exposed by Omar Kayan, the Persian writer, then you need not only common knowledge, but also some years in your back and much experience, intuition, etc. So, if music it is also a language, there are music that is to be easily understood and some that is harder to follow.
Said that, nevertheless, I agree that you must already feel something, have some sort of inclination to a particular style, and there is music that you will never like perhaps or not totally like. I have tried hard to like some hard techno and dance music, but I finished by feeling a real disgust for it, I will never hear it again in my entire life, and I truly paid attention to it for about a year, no way... I have even composed and recorded an album as an experiment... but I guess it is not the real thing.
So, age is also a factor in music. Did you like wine when you were a kid? Probably not, I did not, but now I love wine and can truly enjoy its taste, and for the first time, I am able to feel which wine is which, I used to feel them all quite similar...
I understand your point and don’t truly contradict it but want to say that there are many ways and not fix rules to get to love and know a particular kind of music, and that my personal experience and the experience of many people around myself, has been that you can actually and without doubt, learn to love a particular kind of music, but as I said, you have to already have at least, a small inclination to it.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
Spirit wrote:It's only music in the same way as radio static and bashing tin cans is music: a collection of semi-random noises which has been graciously allowed to be classified as music..
It goes hand in hand with a lot of modern art: it's interesting and valuable only so long as a chic element is willing to support it and give it legitimacy. It has no deeper resonance or meaning. Given a little pressure, or a turn of fashion, it will dissolve to nothing.
I agree so deeply with you there Spirit! And of course, also about jazz nowadays, but only some, as there are great things going on too.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
Simple. A lot of people will jump to make comments if the tune is in the techno or electro style.
The fact that I compose jazz (as I do many other styles) should not keep people from giving constructive criticism on the sound of a track. I am not trying to show off, I am asking for help and I am not getting any, ot very little. Mind you, I have asked for help here with a special project and only got responses from 3 people..
I sometimes feel I don't "fit in witt the crowd"....We're all musicians and should help each other out. Obviously, I feel this is somewhat a lost cause here. I have no idea why...
I mean, it's hardly about conversation is it! 
