On 2005-10-05 09:46, Shayne White wrote:
John Bowen isn't a DSP code programmer (no offense), so he's using the same atoms that we've had for years. Of course, hooking them up in a new synth design with different components may result in new ways of manipulating the waves, which is why he made the QuasiWave. But if CreamWare's working on a new Waldorf Wave clone, it's going to be new stuff entirely.
Shayne
Shayne,
What makes you think it would be "new stuff entirely"?
cheers,
John
(and no offense taken! )
P.S. It's 'Quantum Wave'
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: johnbowen on 2005-10-11 23:27 ]</font>
On 2005-10-10 08:02, sergiosimoes wrote:
I believe that the really IMPORTANT point here is: we "early adopters" would like to have these synths running in the current Scope boards. It'll be a major
disappointment if the new devices would run only in ASB models or any new boards with improved Shark processors (I'm just guessing here).
Sergio
Sergio,
I believe it <em>should</em> be possible to run ASB coded synths on the older Creamware PCI boards, as long as the users' software contains the special DSP modules needed. Remember, like Noah, the main difference is that the ASB devices do not need any 'host computer' to run, as they have all of their functions handled by an on-board DSP chip.
However, I assume there could be a problem if the new ASB code uses some instructions or functions that are not available on the older SHARCs.
John, thanks for your comments. It's always nice to hear your oppinion
Just to illustrate my point: Minimax and Profit5 where first developed as (highly praised) Scope plugins (or devices, or whatever). In fact I believe that plugins like these are a BIG selling point for Scope boards. Later they where "adapted" to run in the new "environment" and processors of the ASB boxes.
I don't have the slightest idea of the work involved in this adaptation, but anyway these two cases proof that IT'S POSSIBLE to have new products in both formats if CW thus want. This development police would reflect IMHO the value that CW gives to their current customers.
I'm a bif fan of dedicated DSP boards to implement the studio-in-a-computer paradigm; I've had Ensoniq Paris, Korg Oasys PCI (both discontinued) and now my LAST EVER attemp are the CW Scope boards. If CW stops the development of devices for them to favor ASB boxes or any new board models (if they ever exist) it'll be the end of line for me, unfortunatelly.
Hardware is too costly to keep buying ever and ever. I have a system with 21 DSP processors and I hope to have new software options for it for some time yet. Your's own Solaris is in my shopping list BTW (unfortunately I cannot buy it right now as I've spent too much buying most of those processors this year ), and also any new vintage emulations that CW would ever create, as long as I don't have to buy new hardware every time just for running them.
Reading all my previous posts in this thread I'd like to clarify one point: the reason for all my concerns is the fact that ASB uses a different processor than Scope, and this raises a valid point about the compatibility of future CW products and the current boards. Noah users, for instance, ever hoped for a Profit5 compatible version but...
according to another thread here they allready have SFP ported to the newer sharcs with little re-coding. its not an issue of copy-paste though, as the glide bug etc illustrates (not that i assume they released minimax as a copy-paste project!).
i read u have tried other DSP solutions earlier; bear in mind that the current product line is about ten years old (not current design, but current processors etc.) and still is a groundbreaking product (ok ppl are catching up, but not there yet). cwaudio has also stated that they are NOT releasing a new pulsar series powered by the newer 200mhz sharcs used in the ASB boxes (curiosity: when commodore was developing the Amiga, they officially said they were just designing a new joystick for the 64. lets cross our fingers). However, they say that they are NOT discontinuing the current product line, which would mean we are safe.
and another thing: the minimoog, the TB303, TR808, TR909, the Prophet 5 and many other discontinued products are still in use. So is ancient valve technology and other stuff. And so will CW ssystems be for years to come ( as long as they make drivers that is = )
i definitly agree with you. I love my dsps and my rooting window... Above all, i love the synth and effects that allow flexibility but also more power in our computer thanks to the gathering of cpu+dsp...
Of course, driver evolution is a key point as synth and effects developpement is a very important as soon as sellings (and as a result compatibility with new computers) go on...
Mey be a creamware rack(like magma ones) would be a solution in order to keep the pci board usefull for years (laptop, pciexpress...)
Other comment. If possible, if you can make the WAVE arrays programmable, that would be really really cool. It would open up the possibilities of the device to be much greater.
Ultimately, the other type of ASB that I think would be interesting is a Spectral ASB. I think Kawai was the first company to really do this right. K150, K5, K5000 I think. How you manage large numbers of oscillators and large numbers of filters seems to be the tricky part. See also Chameleon 5000 and Virsyn Cube:
To me, the obvious way to deal with this is with 3-dimensional formulas, and then to move around along the surface defined by that formula. In one plane you have oscilators, in another plane you have partials, and the level is the value at the point of the formula.
So the controlling factor seems to be, how many oscillators can you create, that each have n-number of partials, and how quickly can you modify the levels of each of those...
I think the topographic equations sort of solve the complexity issue, since you can look at it graphically. Actually those don't have to be equation based either, but any 3-space map could be used. And I suppose you could pre-generate either of those, and then create different motion-maps for how your traverse them, as well as user-controlled.
All the above depends on being able to produce oscillators that are additive, and to change them rapidly. So I'm thinking the new DSP's would be perfect candidates for this.
cube is an overhyped, boring and ineffective approach to soundgeneration, imho.
It's a brute force, kind of shotgun attempt to hit something by the help of pure quantity without even knowing if it exists at all.
to take this type of synthesis beyond the k5000, one needs 'relevant' oscillators (and not just a ton of them) and you need a 'context', that represents an acoustic model (or it's parameters), and not an arbitrary geometric description.
Even if the Scope wavetables are still the same, something like John's Wave 'emulation' is lightyears ahead in quality and versatility (or is it because I don't understand the Cube's graphics ?)
I won't try to convince you otherwise. I would however like to see Creamware think about pushing for new and exciting intruments within the ASB platform, as opposed to only recreating the old classics.
well, you know that Cube is a german program - which may explain part of the fact that it has been hyped in the local press to an enormous extent ().
It's not a bad program and can be a very useful in sound context, but that's about it.
Not a ground breaking experience into synthesis either - this kind of sound can be generated by dozens of ways.
At least that was my impression after several installations of the demo version.
Nevertheless it illustrates nicely the marketing (feedback)loop that CWA cannot benefit from.
The press makes the program 'big', the company can establish market presence and a solid price, the press is 'rewarded' by special editions for the mag CDs, more people buy the mag for that extra content, the next update gets an even broader coverage and so on ...
Ok, 'nuff rant
The problem with innovative sound concepts is that people are left with an investment uncertainity.
A Moog or Oberheim or Wave emulation immediately calls up the well known prices of the classics.
If the virtual counterpart is a decent re-incarnation then it's the usual '...only paid 5% of the original, but have the very same sound' argument.
Obviously people want 'immediate results', so tons of Spectrasonics (and alike) stuff is sold, while instruments that require a certain amount of time (to master) like the Neuron (in VSTI land) or PythonPro (in SFP) fail.
imho the ASB paradigm is at least a partial solution as it makes whatever is inside immediately accessible and represents a physical value.
I'm wondering if Creamware should start making VSTi plugins. The obvious advantage of SHARC DSP chip based synths hasn't caught on due to the high price of Creamware cards and Creamware's apparently dismal marketing team. There is an advantage for Creamware that piracy is nearly impossible but lack of publicity is worse. I heard on "This Week In Tech" episode 31 that the companies who had software that was easiest to crack in the 90's are the companies that are doing the best now due to a large user base. An example is Adobe. They know about all the illegal copies because when you click on help your serial and IP is recorded at the Adobe website. According to TWIT, Adobe is secretly happy about all the illegal copies.
Personally I own 3 legal softwares from NI and I will never buy another one because of the very intrusive copy protection. When I restore an image of my C: drive I am required to authorize all of my NI products again and this is not easy. The support at NI claim I am the only one who complains about this to them.
On 2005-11-23 07:11, braincell wrote:
...I heard on "This Week In Tech" episode 31 that the companies who had software that was easiest to crack in the 90's are the companies that are doing the best now due to a large user base. An example is Adobe. ...
imho that's an out-off-context generalization.
THE company that is doing best is M$Soft and it was in the 80s they abandoned copy protection at all. Word and Excel as the PC killer-apps (contra mainframe).
But they were in a position that they already supplied the OS, economically on the safe side, too.
Adobe got into it's current position by license fees for Postscript and their fonts, built into almost any printer that was used graphically.
Photoshop entirely dominated it's market.
I cannot remember one single system in pre-press that didn't run PS - and at least 30% of those copies were legal.
That made them famous on the desktop, too, so people trusted in Adobe PDF documents, which have become unavoidable since then.
Again this enterprise was started from a perfectly safe economic position, and satisfied the same needs as the omnipresent word processors - one couldn't do without.
that doesn't compare well to the music gear market, imho.
Not to forget that there's no business on earth where customers accept a similiar treatment as by the suppliers of PC hard- and software
On 2005-11-23 10:03, Wired wrote:
thought that terratec might resurrect Waldorf?
The situation seems a bit confusing:
Terratec releases the komplexer nowadays and I read in KEYS (german magazine) that it was design by Frank Schneider and Stefan Stenzel from the Stadler Electro company. In KEYS article, Stefan Stenzel also mentionned a hardware version of the Komplexer and Terratec releases the "AREA 61 - the Expandable Controller Keyboard" with one slot for "integrated sound generators (optionally available DSP soundboards)" which could be this Hardware Komplexer (both virtual knob of the VST Komplexer and AREA 61 real knob kind of look the same).
Sex Object
Yes! No!
Yes! No!
I don't want to be your sex object
Show some feeling and respect
I don't want to be your sex object
I've had enough and that's a fact
Yes! No!
Yes! No!
I don't want to be your sex object
You play your tricks they're just perfect
I don't want to be your sex object
You turn me on then you forget
No! Why? [sex]
No! Why? [sex]
Maybe, Perhaps, Yes!
Maybe, Perhaps, Yes!
Yes! No!
Yes! No!
I don't want to be your sex object
You play your tricks they're just perfect
I don't want to be your sex object
I've had enough and that's a fact
No! Yes! Maybe... Perhaps... Yes
No... si, si quieres
No... si, si quieres
Por que? No. Quizas.
Por que? No. A lo mejor.
No! Why? (sex)
No! Why? (sex)
Maybe, Perhaps, Yes!
Maybe, Perhaps, Yes!
Vielleicht... warum? warum?
(Maybe...Why? Why?)
Doch!
Sex object
Sex object
No! Why? (sex)
No! Why? (sex)
Maybe, Perhaps, Yes!
Maybe, Perhaps, Yes!
Sex object
Sex object Translation to french:
Oui! Non!
Oui! Non!
Je ne veux pas être ton objet sexuel
Montre du sentiment et du respect
Je ne veux pas être ton objet sexuel
Cette fois j'en ai assez
Oui! Non!
Oui! Non!
Je ne veux pas être ton objet sexuel
Tu joues tes tours, ils sont vraiment parfaits
Je ne veux pas être ton objet sexuel
Tu m'excites puis tu oubliest
Non! Pourquoi? (sexe)
Non! Pourquoi? (sexe)
Peut-être, peut-être, oui!
Peut-être, peut-être, oui!
Je ne veux pas être ton objet sexuel
Tu joues tes tours, ils sont vraiment parfaits
Je ne veux pas être ton objet sexuel
Cette fois j'en ai assez
Non... si, si, tu veux
Non... si, si, tu veux
Pourquoi ? Non. Peut-être
Pourquoi ? Non. Peut-être bien
Non! Pourquoi? (sexe)
Non! Pourquoi? (sexe)
Peut-être, peut-être, oui!
Peut-être, peut-être, oui!
Peut-être, pourquoi, pourquoi
Objet sexuel
Objet sexuel
Non! Pourquoi? (sexe)
Non! Pourquoi? (sexe)
Peut-être, peut-être, oui!
Peut-être, peut-être, oui!
Objet sexuel
Objet sexuel
Translation to slovak:
Áno! Nie!
Áno! Nie!
Ja nechcem byt' tvoj sex objekt
Prejav svoje city a rešpekt ku mne
Ja nechcem byt' tvoj sex objekt
Mám toho dost a to je fakt
Áno! Nie!
Áno! Nie!
Ja nechcem byt' tvoj sex objekt
Predvádzaš mi triky, sú skrátka dokonalé
Ja nechcem byt' tvoj sex objekt
Rozpáliš ma a potom na ma zabudneš
Nie! Preo? Sex
Nie! Preo? Sex
Mono… Snád'… Áno!
Mono… Snád'… Áno!
Áno! Nie!
Áno! Nie!
Ja nechcem byt' tvoj sex objekt
Predvádzaš mi triky, sú skrátka dokonalé
Ja nechcem byt' tvoj sex objekt
Rozpáliš ma a potom na mna zabudneš
Nie! Áno! Mono… Asi… Áno!
Nie…Áno! Ak chceš…
Nie…Áno! Ak chceš…
Preo? Nie! Mono…
Preo? Nie! Asi
Nie! Preo? Sex
Nie! Preo? Sex
Mono… Snád'… Áno!
Mono… Snád'… Áno!
Mono…Preo? Preo? Translation to italian:
Si! No!
Si! No!
Non voglio essere il tuo oggetto sessuale
Mostra un po di sentimenti e di rispetto
Non voglio essere il tuo oggetto sessuale
Ne ho avuto abbastanza e questo è quanto
Si! No!
Si! No!
Non voglio essere il tuo oggetto sessuale
Hai usato i tuoi trucchi ed erano proprio perfetti
Non voglio essere il tuo oggetto sessuale
Mi hai cambiato e mi hai dimenticato
No! Perchè? (sesso)
No! Perchè? (sesso)
Forse, magari, si!
Forse, magari, si!
Si! No!
Si! No!
Non voglio essere il tuo oggetto sessuale
Hai usato i tuoi trucchi ed erano proprio perfetti
Non voglio essere il tuo oggetto sessuale
Ne ho avuto abbastanza e questo è quanto
No! Si! Forse... magari... si!
No... si, si lo voglio
No... si, si lo voglio
Por que? No. Quizas.
Por que? No. A lo mejor.
No! Perchè? (sesso)
No! Perchè? (sesso)
Forse, magari, Si!
Forse, magari, Si!
Forse... perchè? perchè?
Ja! Ja! Ja!
Nein! Nein! Nein!
Ich bin nicht dein Sex Objekt
Zeig Gefühl so ganz direkt
Ich bin nicht Dein Sex Objekt
Deine Tricks sind fast perfekt
Ich bin nicht Dein Sex Objekt
Du machst mich an und gehst dann weg
Ja! Vielleicht
Ja! Vielleicht
Warum? Warum?
Doch! Nein!
Warum? Warum?
Doch!
No! Yes! Maybe...Perhaps...Yes
No... si, si quieres
No... si, si quieres
Por que? No! Quizas.
Por que? No! A lo mejor
)
= )
