PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

exactly - anyone who says they want as 'basic driver/mixer' for scope is probably better off with another 'sound card' anyway

demanding 'just the Vista driver' doesn't make sense - you still need and sfp.exe and the dll's to work with Vista too...no?

darkrezin wrote:There is no way of using XP drivers in Vista as far as I know. Good luck with your new card...

edit - maybe I'm missing something here (didn't fancy reading thru 5 pages of whining) but what good is a Vista driver without a Scope OS to go with it? How do you plan to make your audio and MIDI connections with your cheap driver?

Back in the day, Creamware released a free basic SCOPE 4.0 for XP, with the basic SCOPE environment with the mixer, a few basic devices and different software drivers. I'm using 100% native stuff nowadays, so that's all I need.

Yes, for me it's time to move on to a company with solid driver support. It's a bit sad, but there's a time for everything I suppose.

Cyberzip, you really are talking rubbish. Spouting off about a company without getting your facts straight seems a bit odd to me... Infact, this whole Vista support for nothing argument is utter stupidity in my opinion.

cyberzip wrote: Back in the day, Creamware released a free basic SCOPE 4.0 for XP, with the basic SCOPE environment with the mixer, a few basic devices and different software drivers. I'm using 100% native stuff nowadays, so that's all I need.

Yes, for me it's time to move on to a company with solid driver support. It's a bit sad, but there's a time for everything I suppose.

That was a Scope OS, just without extra plugins - not the same thing at all. You can't change the fact that it was a Scope OS, which didn't need re-writing because it was still intended for WinXP.

What you're asking for is a free re-written Scope OS for a new version of Windows. Quite a different thing.

Of course if you don't need the features of Scope, you are probably better off getting a more basic card as you say.

Incidentally, from my perspective as a customer, I won't be paying for Scope 5 Vista support - this is because I never intend to use Vista (why would anyone want to ). If there are other features which I need, I will of course look at it.

However, if SC released OSX drivers and software so that the cards could be used in a Magma box (obviously there are no PCI slots on Macs now) then I would happily pay 198 Euro, possibly even more.

cyberzip wrote:...Yes, for me it's time to move on to a company with solid driver support. It's a bit sad, but there's a time for everything I suppose.

yes indeed, but imho someone who demands solid driver support and jumps Vista is a moron by his own words

if you prefer native, no problem - sell the cards, get an RME or ESI instead and have fun.
If you want the SFP environment under a sh*tty OS - pay for it if the company says they cannot do it for free, where's the problem ?

even if you could present a paper that your original Scope cards came with a lifetime warranty and software support including free updates for 5 decades

the company that signed the (original) contract doesn't exist anymore for several years
Do you have even the slightest idea about developing costs in Germany ?
any idea at all ???

sorry, Tom

poor Ralf being harassed by Mr Cyberzip

'gimme my 'basic' scope now! just the mixer like SFP 4.0!'

i have to admit a 49 euro for a basic driver without wxtra licences wouldnt be unfair. at 198 euros, you can probably buy a 2nd hand luna with scope 4.5 and make sonic core upgrade that one for free.

and looking at the current market situation, in 6 months time 198 euros will be close to 350-400 dollars, which does seem pretty steep i must admit. CW used to have separate euro/dollar pricing, but i dont see it happening this time (think ABBA).

The thing is that the real work and real value is in the new programming for the new OS - plugins are always used as a sweetener... they add value to the end customer but the developer is recouping money for new development and also obviously a profit (why not? It isn't a charitable foundation...)

You're right that a 2nd hand card is a loophole, but that is more a reflection of the crazy drop in current market value of the cards. Analog synths once sold for peanuts too because everyone thought they found something better. Then they realised they were buying into something very crap indeed and prices rocketed.

At the end of the day though, this is all missing the real point. It's in our interests to keep SC alive by supporting them. Whether you like it or not, Scope is a niche product - a specialized, high-quality technology which is actually very cheap considering the functionality. No matter how many cores you put in your native system, it's still going to operate at buffer resolution - the future's bright but it's very latent

If SC was a huge corporation like Avid/Digi which doesn't NEED the money, then I'd have an issue. But this scenario is very different.

darkrezin wrote:What you're asking for is a free re-written Scope OS for a new version of Windows. Quite a different thing.

Hey, if people want to demand a free or cheap vista driver that doesn't come with any software for integrating & using the dsp cards, who can stop them?

<~Shroomz~> wrote:Cyberzip, you really are talking rubbish. Spouting off about a company without getting your facts straight seems a bit odd to me... Infact, this whole Vista support for nothing argument is utter stupidity in my opinion.

I'm sorry, I did not intend to talk rubbish. And I'm not asking for Vista support for nothing - I understand that development costs so I'll gladly pay some money - but not 198€.

darkrezin wrote: That was a Scope OS, just without extra plugins - not the same thing at all. You can't change the fact that it was a Scope OS, which didn't need re-writing because it was still intended for WinXP.

What you're asking for is a free re-written Scope OS for a new version of Windows. Quite a different thing.

Oh, I'm sorry, you misunderstood me. I understand that development costs money , so I'm willing to pay for my Vista support - but not 198€.

darkrezin wrote: Of course if you don't need the features of Scope, you are probably better off getting a more basic card as you say.

Exactly. The hardware itself is good, it would be a waste to throw it away.

astroman wrote: yes indeed, but imho someone who demands solid driver support and jumps Vista is a moron by his own words

Why is that?

astroman wrote: if you prefer native, no problem - sell the cards, get an RME or ESI instead and have fun.
If you want the SFP environment under a sh*tty OS - pay for it if the company says they cannot do it for free, where's the problem ?

When I bought my card several years ago, I used to use the SFP environment. Since then native has gone a lot more powerful and more streamlined to use. That's why I only need basic functionality from my Creamware card at this point. It's a good piece of hardware, it would be a waste to throw it away.

astroman wrote: even if you could present a paper that your original Scope cards came with a lifetime warranty and software support including free updates for 5 decades
the company that signed the (original) contract doesn't exist anymore for several years
Do you have even the slightest idea about developing costs in Germany ?
any idea at all ???

sorry, Tom

Yes, development is expensive, that's why I'd like to be able to buy a stripped-down product at a lower price. As I said, it's still a useful piece of hardware.

You just don't understand

To summarize:

Stripped down = not possible - it's one AND the other, or *nothing at all*

If native works for you and you honestly can't justify the expense of new software, move on or continue to use what you have.

One very important fact which you will find in the first page of every beginner's computing book:

Hardware without software is useless.

By the way, I think Astroman was referring to the fact that Vista is about as far away from 'solid' as it's possible to get. My own terminology would be that it's a heap of steaming turd.

well my point wasn't the price being 49 euros really, rather than giving folks an alternative, which would probably gain both parties (consumer/manufacturer). i have no economic interests myself, as i ofcourse have 4.5 myself, and have supported both 3rd parties and SC/CW economically since i joined this forum.

My point is, the border from 198 to nothing is quite wide. im not saying people should demand free drivers at all. My point is, as distribution is quite cheap these days (we all (unfortunatly) have seen that an online keygenerator is fully possible), if people want their cards to work on Vista and are happy with their devices, they should be able to use the allready ddeveloped technology. say it was priced at 90 euros; adding 100 euros for the included devices would be a bargain, and stop people from migrating to other systems.

One can always argue that competing systems doesnt compare at all, but i am afraid that people really interested in Scope platform and realising the potential of the platform allready upgraded to 4.5, which grants them free access to scope 5.

business wise you now have to grasp the ones who didnt. and they will be just as put of on this upgrade as 4.5. and since its now regarding a new OS, tjhose ppl will most likely sell their cards (hey! good for me! cheap dsps ) while SC is loosing dollahs.

piddi wrote:well my point wasn't the price being 49 euros really, rather than giving folks an alternative, which would probably gain both parties (consumer/manufacturer). i have no economic interests myself, as i ofcourse have 4.5 myself, and have supported both 3rd parties and SC/CW economically since i joined this forum.

My point is, the border from 198 to nothing is quite wide. im not saying people should demand free drivers at all. My point is, as distribution is quite cheap these days (we all (unfortunatly) have seen that an online keygenerator is fully possible), if people want their cards to work on Vista and are happy with their devices, they should be able to use the allready ddeveloped technology. say it was priced at 90 euros; adding 100 euros for the included devices would be a bargain, and stop people from migrating to other systems.

One can always argue that competing systems doesnt compare at all, but i am afraid that people really interested in Scope platform and realising the potential of the platform allready upgraded to 4.5, which grants them free access to scope 5.

business wise you now have to grasp the ones who didnt. and they will be just as put of on this upgrade as 4.5. and since its now regarding a new OS, tjhose ppl will most likely sell their cards (hey! good for me! cheap dsps ) while SC is loosing dollahs.

Amen piddi - all of those are my points exactly.

The bolded text emphasizes exactly what I mean - a realistic way of looking at this from business point of view for SC. I am offering them my money.

cyberzip wrote:I'm sorry, I did not intend to talk rubbish.

No problem, everyone does it occasionally.

I've complained about prices before myself, but that was mainly for a ceratin 600 euro EQ from a new developer on a platform where the average plug price is <100. There's a big difference between an EQ & the platform it runs on.

piddi wrote:... if people want their cards to work on Vista and are happy with their devices, they should be able to use the allready ddeveloped technology. ...

admittedly, it's a boring quote but that is exactly the opposite of what Digidesign exercises for years.
we have a new hardware - you may trade in your stuff... for a hefty fee
there is a new OS - sorry, we don't support your old hardware anymore. Period.

that's how a successful business is run - no whens and ifs - no user requests
the product doesn't have the 'Pro' syllabe for nothing...
if you consider yourself 'pro', you gotta be successful
if you're successful, you have a tax balance to polish - who cares about a grand or two ?

you really want SonicCore to go that way ?
spend 4 times the amount you're used to and they will have a budget to setup a reasonable businessplan.
Pay for all upgrades which will then show up on regular intervals - SC will have reliable figures to talk about with their creditors.

I really love that company for their user centered developement and product care, even if it seems humble from time to time.
it's an anachronism, a dying species in todays business world
reminds me much on the original Apple enterprises in the 80s
you certainly don't want them to become i-core, do you ?

cheers, Tom

ps

darkrezin wrote:By the way, I think Astroman was referring to the fact that Vista is about as far away from 'solid' as it's possible to get. My own terminology would be that it's a heap of steaming turd.

exactly what I had in mind - I know them since Win 3.1 LMAO

cyberzip wrote: I am offering them my money.

Let's assume that Sonic Core manages to sell 500 Vista upgrades at €198. That would earn the company €99,000 minus taxes, office expenses, hardware, and salaries - it might be enough money to pay the salary of a single developer plus the company overhead. It definitely wouldn't be enough to help fund future hardware and software development.

If Sonic Core reduced the price to €49, they'd only bring in €24,500. They'd be selling the upgrade at a loss.

These guys *have* to make money to survive, and the reason they can't offer you software at the price you want is because there is a relatively small number of potential customers. The only way this will ever change is if the company introduces a much more powerful PCIe card. At that point, people would start to buy profitable hardware from the company again.

first of, reflex, as i allready stated, the 49 euros is just an example.

second, Tom:

If people were reluctant of paying 198 euros for the 4.0 -> 4.5 upgrade, do you honestly think they will pay for a 4 - 5 upgrade ? when they weren't interested in the accompaning plugs in the first place?

My guess is that this group would easily port to another platform, regardless of the unique quality of this platform.

You can easily say that that will be totally stupid of them, but that wont bring any cash into SC's pockets.

I say a maximum of 100 Euro for a working Driver/OS package (which will bring it to the same level as Vista Home Premium!), and an additional 100 euro for the plugin pack.


and by the way, im not gonna quote you, but if you remove the "return hardware" bit and switch "thousands" for "hundreds" in your former post, hey presto, you got it just right.