why we now charge for key transfers

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Thu May 13, 2004 8:56 am

Tsja...Creamware should have better thought about that before selling DSP cards which almost cost a fortune. You can get a 2nd hand car for that money.

Well, I guess that would have been better, but the reality is that they can't change it and it costs them a lot of time so they ask for some compensation for their time. Only fair I suppose. Really, I don't see what all the fuss is about anyway. The only way I can see this being a big problem is if you sell lots of plugins all the time, which just doesn't always work with software.

Always the same answer. If you don't like your neighbour you still have the option to kill him...including his family.

That's hardly a comparable argument.

Selling your cards is a legitimate option if you're not satisfied with either the product itself or CWA's service, killing your neigbour is not. (at least not where I'm from).

If you read carefully you would have noticed that I don't compare the software...but the support. And I know that comparing Muon Software to Creamware is ridiculous...cause Creamware's support is so much worse.

you said that you "don't even need one of these fuc*ing expensive DSP cards" which seems to imply to me that you would get something comparable from Muon without the cards. The cards are not the support.
And are you basing your judgement of the support on this one incident or do you have many cases of bad support with CWA? (and great support with Muon)? Anyway (again) the products are pretty different so comparing the support is still silly.

_________________

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2004-05-13 09:57 ]

Post by **garyb** » Thu May 13, 2004 12:01 pm

some crackers and cheeeez with that whine?

Stubbe · Post by **Stubbe** » Thu May 13, 2004 1:49 pm

ohhh jes pleeze, and waitør, vøld ju kaindli remøve ze soup - ther zeems tø be ø cømplaint in it

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu May 13, 2004 4:46 pm

***** marks my replies *****

On 2004-05-12 18:54, 7XL wrote:
So in other words the customer suffers because of an internal decision.

Your choice of copy protection seems to be the issue here. Since the beginning (Pulsar I) you (CWA) knew that transfering keys was an issue. But instead of changing it, you left it the same. Now that it becomes a "hassle" for you, you decide to charge the end user. The same people that supported your company by purchasing your product un the first place.

***** There is no such thing as an internal problem. The end user always pays. And if the user does not pay enough, there will not be any company at all to get any kind of support from. Custommers very rarely support a company by buying a product. Support is an action directed toward the support recieving subject. Custommers buy stuff, because they want the stuff - not because they want to give their money to some company. This sentence about us supporting them is one of the most missused sentences in these kinds of debates. *****

You make it sound like it's our (the end user) fault that you chose such a Draconian and invasive form of "copy protection".
***** That is how you read it. I do not read it that way.*****

Here's a news flash "People Don't Like It." While you see it as a justified cost, most of us see it as an attempt by your company to extort money from us. While this may well not be the case, that does seem to be the prevailing thought.
***** Do not like what? I love their copy protection. I feel better paying for something, that the person next door can not just download illegally on the net. Also, I like the fact, that if someone steals my PC, I will contact Creamware and ask them to NOT let anything new be registered to my cards. It makes that kind theft less fruitfull too.*****

Charging people for support on a card that is more than 2 years old? That is straight out wrong in my opinion. If the "common" problems are all so simple, then so should be the answers. If you look at your competitors I don't think that they charge you for support on existing products.
***** The competition is going down. Try counting how many of the bigger names in the audio bussiness has been swallowed during the past year or 2. Try counting how many did not - AND are doing fine with no problems. *****

It appears that you have neglected one fact, some people don't like paying for services that were once free. I know that this is going to fall on deaf ears, but I felt that I should at least let my feelings be known in public.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu May 13, 2004 4:54 pm

***** marks my comments *****

On 2004-05-12 19:32, powerpulsarian wrote:
I find it offensive to ask me to pay for support when I payed such a high price for your product (over $1,500). For products in this price range, I expect support as part of the purchase price. If I didn't already own a card, I would not purchase one at this point based on the fact that I would be required to pay for support.
***** actually it is my impression, that expensive products often has the most expensive support. I may be wrong *****

If you only charged $200 for card, then I would understand the rationale. For any high-price items I purchase, I always consider what support I will get in case I need it as part of my buying decision.
***** If they charged $200 for a card, custommers would definitely be annoyed for paying so relatively much for support *****

If support is no longer included in the purchase price, you need to lower prices drastically as a result IMO.
***** They lowered many plug-in prices more, than they charge for a transfer *****

Have you considered an alternative that would allow people with a 15 dsp card free support (since it such a greater investment), while others with cheaper cards would have to pay?
***** I find, that powerpulsar users scope pro users already get quite good value for the extra bucks spend *****

As far as the plugins are concerned, I will not likely purchase too many plugins if I know I would never be able to recoup a good portion of my cost if I decide I don't like it and want to sell later. I would rather invest in something I can get my money back out of (such as hardware synth/effect or software/VST synth/effect).
***** what other piece of code to you expect to get back more than a fraction for, when selling it? *****

Again, if you are going to charge for transfers, the price must come down even more to make people feel comfortable with a permanent decision with not much chance to resell and recoup cost. If I am buying something I know has very little resale value (meaning more risk on my part), it must be at an excellent price in the first place (otherwise I will pass on it).
***** repetition - They lowered many plug-in prices more, than they charge for a transfer *****

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu May 13, 2004 4:55 pm

On 2004-05-12 19:38, powerpulsarian wrote:
One final thought that Creamware must consider...

If you go down the route of charging for support, the least you can do for users is provide a comprehensive, searchable and accurate database of solution via your web site - and make it very user-friendly.

Also, don't make people rely on PlanetZ for help for something that should be your responsibility. PlanetZ is great, but there isn't anything here like what I mentioned above. It takes a lot of searching and weeding through threads to find answers much of the time. Creamware should be the first source for answers via their web site (especially the most typical issues), with the gurus here at PlanetZ as backup.

(This would have helped you to avoid a lot of the support questions in the first place so you wouldn't have had to go to this extreme of charging for support, which, by the way, will get you bad press and word of mouth for sure.)

I find you have much better points in this post.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu May 13, 2004 5:09 pm

***** marks my comments *****

On 2004-05-13 02:55, Cash2017 wrote:
On 2004-05-12 18:54, 7XL wrote:
So in other words the customer suffers because of an internal decision.

Your choice of copy protection seems to be the issue here. Since the beginning (Pulsar I) you (CWA) knew that transfering keys was an issue. But instead of changing it, you left it the same. Now that it becomes a "hassle" for you, you decide to charge the end user. The same people that supported your company by purchasing your product un the first place.

You make it sound like it's our (the end user) fault that you chose such a Draconian and invasive form of "copy protection". Here's a news flash "People Don't Like It." While you see it as a justified cost, most of us see it as an attempt by your company to extort money from us. While this may well not be the case, that does seem to be the prevailing thought.

Charging people for support on a card that is more than 2 years old? That is straight out wrong in my opinion. If the "common" problems are all so simple, then so should be the answers. If you look at your competitors I don't think that they charge you for support on existing products.

It appears that you have neglected one fact, some people don't like paying for services that were once free. I know that this is going to fall on deaf ears, but I felt that I should at least let my feelings be known in public.

I totally agree. Good points. If Creamware is not able to handle their copy protection in a userfriendly way they should leave it.
***** so if some users are displeased, Creamware should just say bye bye to a considderable amont of money, because people will get their plug-ins as warez? *****

Another example is Muon Software. They offer lifetime free updates and support. I just bought a plugin from a friend...took me 2 minues to write an email and another 3 hours later the license was transferred. And I don't even need one of these fuc*ing expensive DSP cards. Tjsa Creamware...you can really learn a lesson.
***** good for you. Lets hope Muon stays in bussiness. CWA can not be best at everything. Maybe you got something in a better and more convenient way at another company. You are free to choose where to buy your next piece of code. *****

As I said before...I will never ever buy a plugin from Creamware.

Cheers

[ This Message was edited by: Cash2017 on 2004-05-13 02:56 ]

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu May 13, 2004 5:22 pm

***** marks my replies *****

On 2004-05-13 06:14, rodos1979 wrote:
I understand why CWA has to charge for key transfers, and like it or not I accept their decision!

For me there are just two "grey areas" that need to be clarified:
a) key transfers from an "old board" to a "newer board", both owened by the same owener. For example, I had an old Pulsar I in an old P2 350MHz PC and I had bought STS4000 for it. Some time later, I bought a new powerful PC (P4 2,4GHz) and 2Pulsar II cards (one Pulsar 2 and one XTC). I ve tried EVRYTHING POSSIBLE ON EARTH to make the three cards work together but it was not possible (PCI overflows, not enough DSP). So, I decided to keep my new PC without the Pulsar I BUT I wanted to use the STS4000 with my new PC (and with my newly invested cards). Ofcourse, all this has happened in the past, and I transfered the keys of STS4000 at no charge. I think this should be the case nowadays as well.
b) CW Frank said that when you transfer plugins (no matter if it is one or ten), they have to erase all the keys from the source board and remake them. Therefore, I really cannot see why there must be TWO prices for the key transfers - 35eur for 1 plugin or 50eur for more than one. There should be only ONE price, which is the charge due to the transfer of keys from ONE BOARD, since they have to erase and remake the keys only ONCE. If the request requires the keys to be erased from MORE THAN ONE board, then they should apply a fee as many times as the boards.
Oh, and 30euros I think is more than enough.
***** 30€ does not cower an hours work by a qualified person where I live (when all the extra "employer's expenses" are counted in. I don't know, but I kind of have a guess, that 35€ covers it, but there is a limmit as to how much they dare to ask. *****

As far as support is concerned, I dont mind them charging for it as long as they TRULY offer it. I NEVER had REAL support up to today from CW. I always managed to solve my problems wit the the help of the PlanetZ people. That is why I registered in this forum, anyway in the first place. Creamw@re did not offer me any help when I had major problems with my cards, so I had to ask help from other sources. If you see my posts, you will see that up to some point I was always asking for help in here. And I was GETTING help! After some time, when I became myself just a little tiny bit more knowledgable, I felt that I HAD to help as much as I can as well the newer people who are in the position I was in the past. Furthermore, I met in here several people, who I really respect and I feel grateful to them for all their unconditional help that they have given me. I consider them as friends (and hope that they consider me too! ), no matter that we have never met in our real lives!

Anyway, I got a bit carried away ... I all I need to say is AN ENORMOUSLY HUGE THANK YOU to all the PlanetZ people for all they have done and still do, and that YES, CWA should charge for their support if and only if they are at least 50% as helpful as the PlanetZ people.

Enough said! Love to you ALL!

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu May 13, 2004 5:26 pm

***** marks my replies *****

On 2004-05-13 07:45, Cash2017 wrote:
On 2004-05-13 07:11, King of Snake wrote:
Frank just told you it's hardwired into the cards. The copyprotection was never meant to allow for tranfer of codes.
Tsja...Creamware should have better thought about that before selling DSP cards which almost cost a fortune. You can get a 2nd hand car for that money.
***** They did think about it. And they did change their original idea - to please custommers demands. That may in some ways have been a bad move though. *****

Well, if you don't like the cards you can still sell those, including all the plugins.
Always the same answer. If you don't like your neighbour you still have the option to kill him...including his family.

To compare a Muon softsynth to the Scope DSP system is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in long time anyway. Not to put Muon down in any way, it's just totally different.
If you read carefully you would have noticed that I don't compare the software...but the support. And I know that comparing Muon Software to Creamware is ridiculous...cause Creamware's support is so much worse.

Good for you.
And bad for Creamware

Post by **hubird** » Thu May 13, 2004 6:26 pm

my god Immanuel, I propose you are not alowed to use the quote knob during the next 3 days at least!

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu May 13, 2004 6:38 pm

It did get a bit hard to figure out didn't it?

Post by **hubird** » Thu May 13, 2004 8:21 pm

On 2004-05-13 05:51, cannonball wrote:
... not clear how owner of 3 cards and relative plugin i find strange pay for manage what is mine

Hi Cannonball, I send you a pm

Cash2017 · Post by **Cash2017** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:45 am

On 2004-05-13 09:56, King of Snake wrote:

you said that you "don't even need one of these fuc*ing expensive DSP cards" which seems to imply to me that you would get something comparable from Muon without the cards. The cards are not the support.
And are you basing your judgement of the support on this one incident or do you have many cases of bad support with CWA? (and great support with Muon)? Anyway (again) the products are pretty different so comparing the support is still silly. .

Indeed I get something comparable from Muon Software. I get good support and software which is of the same use like a Creamware product. Only difference is that I pay much less for a Muon product. Therefore saying that "the products are pretty different so comparing the support is still silly" is silly as well. The product are of the same use for me...making music. And at the moment I better work with Muon stuff because it works. The text editing issue is known since the release of the XTC mode and Creamware is not able to fix that. The value of the Creamware cards is pretty little in comparision to the Muon stuff which cost much less and they do not charge for transfering licenses. If I sell my cards now (a legitimate option as you said) I have to pay 35 Euro...and now tell me that Creamware isn't screwing customers.

valis · Post by **valis** » Fri May 14, 2004 2:58 am

Devices are registered to the board id not to user account. The board id is associated with your user account but I suspect selling board + keys is a much simpler operation than rekeying a board so that you can sell a few plugins but keep the board.

Its great that you are so productive with muon stuff. However comparing the two is apples & oranges. One might say that because WinXP can burn cd's natively and Nero burns cd's, since Roxio worked better for you and winXp's cd-burning capabilites didn't then Roxio is obviously the 'better product' especially since its so much cheaper than WinXP!. I think that's ignoring quite a bit of functionality built into XP that Roxio lacks. Same for your comparison....

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri May 14, 2004 4:23 am

On 2004-05-14 02:45, Cash2017 wrote:
Indeed I get something comparable from Muon Software. I get good support and software which is of the same use like a Creamware product. Only difference is that I pay much less for a Muon product.

I agree with you Cash2017. CWA is too expensive and you have been screwed. I think the best way that we can all make a protest about this terrible situation is to immediately sell our cards.

You be first ! Show us the way ! Leave the Scope platform in protest ! Leave right now. It'll really teach CWA such a big lesson !

Just go here:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewforum ... rum=8&1600

How much do you think the card is worth ? A very small amount I suppose...

Post by **hubird** » Fri May 14, 2004 5:15 am

On 2004-05-14 02:45, Cash2017 wrote:
If I sell my cards now (a legitimate option as you said) I have to pay 35 Euro...and now tell me that Creamware isn't screwing customers.

Is your name, Cash2017, an expression of your preoccupation with the mony side?

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Fri May 14, 2004 5:26 am

Indeed I get something comparable from Muon Software. I get good support and software which is of the same use like a Creamware product. Only difference is that I pay much less for a Muon product.

so you are comparing the products! Just now you were saying you didn't!

If you read carefully you would have noticed that I don't compare the software...but the support.

Make up your mind. I maintain that comparing the Muon softsynths with the Scope system is ridiculous. Especially since you seem to be comparing the price of a Muon product (ie. one softsynth) with the price of a Scope system, which is even more absurd. Not to mention the fact that Muon (judging from their website) has a grand total of four different plugins to sell.

The product are of the same use for me...making music. And at the moment I better work with Muon stuff because it works. The text editing issue is known since the release of the XTC mode and Creamware is not able to fix that. The value of the Creamware cards is pretty little in comparision to the Muon stuff which cost much less and they do not charge for transfering licenses. If I sell my cards now (a legitimate option as you said) I have to pay 35 Euro...and now tell me that Creamware isn't screwing customers.

If you work better with Muon products that's great, just don't try to tell me they offer the same possibilities as Scope system. (do Muon plugins come with an audio card? with their own DSP's? With I/O? With flexible routing? etc etc)

SELL YOR CARD AND STOP WHINING!

_________________

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2004-05-14 06:28 ]

Post by **hubird** » Fri May 14, 2004 5:34 am

I offer the newprice of any of the Muon plugs...

Alphawave · Post by **Alphawave** » Fri May 14, 2004 11:55 am

On 2004-05-12 19:32, powerpulsarian wrote:
I find it offensive to ask me to pay for support when I payed such a high price for your product (over $1,500). For products in this price range, I expect support as part of the purchase price.

Sorry, but what world are you living in??

I work in a tracking antenna firm, and support after a few years - everything from education (support) to repairs, which is extending the contract defined time/quantity range, are charged for with exorbitant bills.
These products are antennaes that cost 15000$ to 12mio.$ a piece.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:53 pm

Since the mixerpacks have been generating work for you because of the increased transfers. May I suggest that users be allowed to create their own packs. Nobody wants to buy something they already have.