why we now charge for key transfers

Oldster · Post by **Oldster** » Thu May 13, 2004 1:05 am

Okay, kids, it's late. Now, let's see if you can get some sleep.

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Thu May 13, 2004 1:33 am

Ok, key transferts being complicated has CWFrak says, i can understand a bit more as to why cwa will charge from now on. I'm still not too happy about this. This for sure will kill plugins after market... Well, not that i sell that many plugins anyway.

But still, consider a have a Pulsar1, full of plugins. Now i would buy a powerpulsar, most of those plugins already come with it, but some, like 3rd party : Transient Designer, and most optional plugins like sts5000, VDAT aren't.

Now, the goal of buying PowerPulsar for me is to get rid of the pulsar1, but i would want to keep my optional plugins. So, it's 55€ for moving some keys from pulsar1 to PowerPulsar.

Then, for each plugins left (the one i'll have in double), i'll try to sell them, and i would have to pay 35€ for each sale with money taken directlly from sale. So, almost no money is coming back. I can't even donate them!

What i would suggest is establishing some rules on how charging is applied like this:

1- for key transfert from 1 card to another own by the same person, charge the full 55€. I can see how this would reduce work load from cwa.

2- for key transfert of "sold plugins" must be kept free, or else it will kill after market and discourage people from buying in the first place.

3- For key transfert cause by a new creamware hardware bought by the person and plugins being in double, charge 35€ for unregistering all of them from the board. So he can sell them later and the guy who buy could just register them thru the web site using the serial number generated while unregistering them.

4- If the guy from °3 change is mind and decide to keep the plugin he previously unregistered, charge another 35€ for re-registering them.

This is what i would suggest. This will have many good effects, like reducing work load of cwa, making peoples who were "playing" with key transfert restrain themself, while not penalising people who would sell double plugins.

That's my 0.02€

I think my ideas are worth consideration

Cash2017 · Post by **Cash2017** » Thu May 13, 2004 1:55 am

On 2004-05-12 18:54, 7XL wrote:
So in other words the customer suffers because of an internal decision.

Your choice of copy protection seems to be the issue here. Since the beginning (Pulsar I) you (CWA) knew that transfering keys was an issue. But instead of changing it, you left it the same. Now that it becomes a "hassle" for you, you decide to charge the end user. The same people that supported your company by purchasing your product un the first place.

You make it sound like it's our (the end user) fault that you chose such a Draconian and invasive form of "copy protection". Here's a news flash "People Don't Like It." While you see it as a justified cost, most of us see it as an attempt by your company to extort money from us. While this may well not be the case, that does seem to be the prevailing thought.

Charging people for support on a card that is more than 2 years old? That is straight out wrong in my opinion. If the "common" problems are all so simple, then so should be the answers. If you look at your competitors I don't think that they charge you for support on existing products.

It appears that you have neglected one fact, some people don't like paying for services that were once free. I know that this is going to fall on deaf ears, but I felt that I should at least let my feelings be known in public.

I totally agree. Good points. If Creamware is not able to handle their copy protection in a userfriendly way they should leave it.

Another example is Muon Software. They offer lifetime free updates and support. I just bought a plugin from a friend...took me 2 minues to write an email and another 3 hours later the license was transferred. And I don't even need one of these fuc*ing expensive DSP cards. Tjsa Creamware...you can really learn a lesson.

As I said before...I will never ever buy a plugin from Creamware.

Cheers

[ This Message was edited by: Cash2017 on 2004-05-13 02:56 ]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Thu May 13, 2004 2:03 am

well, before things get ugly, I'll just say that while we are free to express our opinions about how Frank should run CWA, nobody is obligated to follow direct order. Other words, don't start building expectations just because Frank reads the boards.

I find it offensive to ask me to pay for support when I payed such a high price for your product (over $1,500). For products in this price range, I expect support as part of the purchase price. If I didn't already own a card, I would not purchase one at this point based on the fact that I would be required to pay for support.

From my experience tho, it seems to be that alot of expensive gear (video editing, for ex) aren't really "buy once and guaranteed forever". I mean, stuff like a Rolex or Zippo can be guaranteed for life.. But think of an Avid editing system.. It takes like $10,000 to buy the system in the first place.. and then you have to pay to get support. (because shops have to be officially authorized) You even pay for updates! How about ProTools? (not the freebie one) They choose to use a new version of DSP and all of a sudden your old ProTools system is forever un-upgradable. Ya see, a lot of the more expensive gear manufacturers are not selling just single products (sold, and done) but are selling entire solutions. Not that CW gear is quite in that price range.. but the function of CW gear is close.

So, my point is that just because a system is expensive, it doesn't mean you get extravagant treatment like you do at expensive hotels. Life's tough with expensive gear, and that's the way it's been, and will be. (might as well buy into it)

We're lucky enough that CWA is traveling somewhere between cheaper gear and el-expensive gear in that they're not using too many hardware tricks or software tricks that make SCOPE purposely incompatible with other company's gear. Sony and Panasonic does alot of this so that once a customer buys one of their product, they're locked into their own chain of products. It's a crappy trick that Japanese corporates love to use.. and compared to this, CWA's choices are more than logical, they can even be considered consumer friendly.

Of course, it's all a relative matter.. I mean, I can take CWA and compare it to the worst cases, or I can look for a better case and make CWA look bad. It all just depends on how you look at it. But again, CWA is going through tough times, and it's no surprise theyr'e taking measures to try to get back up and fully operational. They're going through changes, and so I guess it's good to feedback. Just do so in a way that'll actually motivate the CWA people yeah?

Post by **garyb** » Thu May 13, 2004 2:23 am

yeah.

terrence · Post by **terrence** » Thu May 13, 2004 2:27 am

Thanks for the explenation Frank.
Although I'm not 100% satisfied, I understand the position you're in.

I don't understand why you've choosen this way of communicating such a (apperently sensitive) subject. An official statement on your site would have been a better way and would have given less room for speculation.

Just a q, will u process keyrequests
that have been made before the changes to your online shop for free, or do we have to send them again, this time with a payment receipt?

Thanks for your time,

T.

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Thu May 13, 2004 2:40 am

My only question is: if CWA has to issue new serial numbers for boards every time someone transfers one key, are they going to run out of serial numbers eventually??

Shayne

_________________
Discover Human Music by Shayne White at: http://www.shaynesworld.com

[ This Message was edited by: Shayne White on 2004-05-13 03:40 ]

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Thu May 13, 2004 3:51 am

Thanks very much for the explanation, Frank.

Although personally I don't agree with it, I understand why...compared to the quadzillion billion other things I don't agree with, it's no biggy, really

One thought that has kept recuring in my head throughout this entire debacle is - why not THINK carefully about what plugins, upgrades you want to buy first before comitting your hard-earned money? That way, you might not need/want to sell any of them! I don't intend to sell any of mine - I've brought the tools I wanted for the system. I know that you sometimes end up with duplicates (I certainly have, having brought both a Pulasr II and a Pulsar XTC), but that's the way the cookie crumbles, sometimes

Royston

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu May 13, 2004 4:15 am

On 2004-05-13 03:40, Shayne White wrote:
... are they going to run out of serial numbers eventually??

they'd certainly appreciate that point, but I don't think they expect SUCH a prosperous future

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2004-05-13 05:17 ]

cannonball · Post by **cannonball** » Thu May 13, 2004 4:51 am

hi

thanks for the info i really appreciate
when creamware give us explanation
but of course there is a part not clear
how owner of 3 cards and relative
plugin i find strange pay for manage
what is mine
if i want change and split in different pc
the cards or just sell a card i must transfer the keys and pay for what i just payed
pass key from my p2 to powerpulsar
cost me how buy a good plug o half of a good plug
i think there is some different case
one thing is sell plug to others
another thing manage mine plug to the cards due to different investment through the years.

hope you read and undestand different situation

thankz anyway

ale

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Thu May 13, 2004 5:14 am

I understand why CWA has to charge for key transfers, and like it or not I accept their decision!

For me there are just two "grey areas" that need to be clarified:
a) key transfers from an "old board" to a "newer board", both owened by the same owener. For example, I had an old Pulsar I in an old P2 350MHz PC and I had bought STS4000 for it. Some time later, I bought a new powerful PC (P4 2,4GHz) and 2Pulsar II cards (one Pulsar 2 and one XTC). I ve tried EVRYTHING POSSIBLE ON EARTH to make the three cards work together but it was not possible (PCI overflows, not enough DSP). So, I decided to keep my new PC without the Pulsar I BUT I wanted to use the STS4000 with my new PC (and with my newly invested cards). Ofcourse, all this has happened in the past, and I transfered the keys of STS4000 at no charge. I think this should be the case nowadays as well.
b) CW Frank said that when you transfer plugins (no matter if it is one or ten), they have to erase all the keys from the source board and remake them. Therefore, I really cannot see why there must be TWO prices for the key transfers - 35eur for 1 plugin or 50eur for more than one. There should be only ONE price, which is the charge due to the transfer of keys from ONE BOARD, since they have to erase and remake the keys only ONCE. If the request requires the keys to be erased from MORE THAN ONE board, then they should apply a fee as many times as the boards.
Oh, and 30euros I think is more than enough.

As far as support is concerned, I dont mind them charging for it as long as they TRULY offer it. I NEVER had REAL support up to today from CW. I always managed to solve my problems wit the the help of the PlanetZ people. That is why I registered in this forum, anyway in the first place. Creamw@re did not offer me any help when I had major problems with my cards, so I had to ask help from other sources. If you see my posts, you will see that up to some point I was always asking for help in here. And I was GETTING help!

After some time, when I became myself just a little tiny bit more knowledgable, I felt that I HAD to help as much as I can as well the newer people who are in the position I was in the past. Furthermore, I met in here several people, who I really respect and I feel grateful to them for all their unconditional help that they have given me.

I consider them as friends (and hope that they consider me too!

), no matter that we have never met in our real lives!

Anyway, I got a bit carried away

... I all I need to say is AN ENORMOUSLY HUGE THANK YOU to all the PlanetZ people for all they have done and still do, and that YES, CWA should charge for their support if and only if they are at least 50% as helpful as the PlanetZ people.

Enough said! Love to you ALL!

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Thu May 13, 2004 6:11 am

I totally agree. Good points. If Creamware is not able to handle their copy protection in a userfriendly way they should leave it.
Frank just told you it's hardwired into the cards. The copyprotection was never meant to allow for tranfer of codes.

Another example is Muon Software. They offer lifetime free updates and support. I just bought a plugin from a friend...took me 2 minues to write an email and another 3 hours later the license was transferred. And I don't even need one of these fuc*ing expensive DSP cards. Tjsa Creamware...you can really learn a lesson.
Well, if you don't like the cards you can still sell those, including all the plugins. To compare a Muon softsynth to the Scope DSP system is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in long time anyway. Not to put Muon down in any way, it's just totally different.

As I said before...I will never ever buy a plugin from Creamware.

Good for you.

_________________

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2004-05-13 07:12 ]

Ashkenazy · Post by **Ashkenazy** » Thu May 13, 2004 6:44 am

So be very carefull when buying plugins from Creamware. Once you have them you're stuck to them for life!

Cash2017 · Post by **Cash2017** » Thu May 13, 2004 6:45 am

On 2004-05-13 07:11, King of Snake wrote:
Frank just told you it's hardwired into the cards. The copyprotection was never meant to allow for tranfer of codes.

Tsja...Creamware should have better thought about that before selling DSP cards which almost cost a fortune. You can get a 2nd hand car for that money.

Well, if you don't like the cards you can still sell those, including all the plugins.

Always the same answer. If you don't like your neighbour you still have the option to kill him...including his family.

To compare a Muon softsynth to the Scope DSP system is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in long time anyway. Not to put Muon down in any way, it's just totally different.

If you read carefully you would have noticed that I don't compare the software...but the support. And I know that comparing Muon Software to Creamware is ridiculous...cause Creamware's support is so much worse.

Good for you.

And bad for Creamware

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu May 13, 2004 6:54 am

im still curious frank... as a plugin was supposed to be transferred to me a long time ago (2 months ago), do i still need to buy this thing? i mean, i havent even recieved a mail from support the last 2 months, so im a bit curious as to what is happening.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Thu May 13, 2004 7:14 am

On 2004-05-13 07:44, Ashkenazy wrote:
So be very carefull when buying plugins from Creamware. Once you have them you're stuck to them for life!

It isn't what you have but how you use it.
I know people who only use free plugs from databaseaudio and make some fabulously great sounding music.

terrence · Post by **terrence** » Thu May 13, 2004 7:19 am

On 2004-05-13 07:54, piddi wrote:
im still curious frank... as a plugin was supposed to be transferred to me a long time ago (2 months ago), do i still need to buy this thing? i mean, i havent even recieved a mail from support the last 2 months, so im a bit curious as to what is happening.

same here...

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Thu May 13, 2004 7:24 am

On 2004-05-13 08:19, terrence wrote:
On 2004-05-13 07:54, piddi wrote:
im still curious frank... as a plugin was supposed to be transferred to me a long time ago (2 months ago), do i still need to buy this thing? i mean, i havent even recieved a mail from support the last 2 months, so im a bit curious as to what is happening.
same here...

I received a PHONE CALL from Germany this morning! Ralf was very nice indeed!
Things are definitely looking up

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Thu May 13, 2004 8:11 am

Even Rolex doesn't offer lifetime warranty (just 2 years). I know it, I own one. My last repair (new glas, new closure) was pretty expensive - about 800 Euro...

And eg InteractiveFX (high-end editing and compositing software) only offers 6 months 'free' support, and you pay up to $ 80000 for their product.

powerpulsarian · Post by **powerpulsarian** » Thu May 13, 2004 8:43 am

On 2004-05-12 21:02, Shayne White wrote:

I never sell anything, and I never buy anything unless I really know I need it

I am not sure this is the case for the majority of people.

I do agree that you get value immediately by being inspired and using the plugin (almost always worth the price you paid). However, I think the real issue is when people compare it to other products they could buy that may hold their value much better.

I know that's not a good way of looking at things when you purchase something for music purposes. Yes, the main focus should be on how you might use a tool for your music right now. But for most people, the ability to recoup costs if needed is probably in the back of their minds when considering what tools to purchase.

And, charging for support after two years also has the potential for used cards to lose more value (again, making it a hard choice if you are considering what you might get back out of your purchase if you decide the system is not for you and you try to sell later). It comes down to a riskier purchase that potential new users might think harder about or avoid altogether.

Although, I really think I can forgive the idea of charging for support after two years if there were better FAQs and/or a database (as I mentioned). It just seems like it would be a winning situation for everyone (Creamware gets less support calls from new and old users, and the users get a quick and easy way to look up and find solutions to most common problems).

Anyway, we all must live with what Creamware decides if we want to continue to use their great products. I never have had to use much support, so that's not really why I am writing all this. My main concern is for how these decisions might affect people's opinions of Creamware (i.e., bad word of mouth) and then ultimately affect Creamware's ability to sell their products (which then hurts all of us because Creamware has less resources, or is faced with another situation of reorganization).

By the way, I think it is great that Creamware takes the time to post here to explain the thinking behind their decision (and are very upfront about what they are doing and why). Open, honest, straight to the point communication goes a long way IMO, even if we don't like what they say (it's much better than fluff statements that everyone sees through anyway). My only criticism here is that they should have had it on their web site immediately (maybe it would have helped avoid all the negative discussion - or at least reduced some of the negative posting).

[ This Message was edited by: powerpulsarian on 2004-05-13 09:56 ]