first of all, John, this is a double post, but read on and you'll see why.
ok, im kinda new here.i must agree, the PlanetZ Pulsarian People Pictures [warning - big page, obviously] was originally the thread i enjoyed the most. ill even post a picture of me as soon as i have one at hand, cause this thread should not be ruined by OT stuff like this.
So, with all possible respect to everyone, if anyone cares to continue this rant, please do it in the "rant" post. i feel it doesnt reflect the idea behind this thread at all.
rant
-
paulrmartin
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
-
lifechanger
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Chicago
- Contact:
-
next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
-
paulrmartin
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
-
marcuspocus
- Posts: 2310
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Canada/France
-
lifechanger
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Chicago
- Contact:
-
lifechanger
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Chicago
- Contact:
In Norway, Criminals Wait A Long Time to Serve Time
Wall Street Journal ^ | june 5, 2003 | PHILIP SHISHKIN
Posted on 06/05/2003 2:18 AM PDT by The Raven
OSLO -- Aida Hassan was halfway through a routine day in the office when her boyfriend called. "I must tell you something," he said. "Can you come home for lunch?"
The couple had met in a disco four years earlier. Then they had a child, bought a house and settled into suburban life. They talked about getting married.
Now Vidar Sandli had shocking news: The next day, he would go off to prison.
In 1998, four months before he asked Ms. Hassan for their first dance, Mr. Sandli was arrested with nearly 4-1/2 pounds of hashish. Norway's strict drug laws got him a three-year prison sentence. But because the country is chronically short on jail space and he hadn't committed a violent crime, Mr. Sandli was told he would wait months or even years to do his time. In the meantime, he cleaned up his life -- but didn't tell his new love about the ghost in his past. When he finally had no choice, "my whole body just collapsed," Ms. Hassan recalls.
Here in Norway, they call it the "prison queue." The system reflects Norway's long humanitarian tradition and mild attitude toward imprisonment. At 60 inmates per 100,000 citizens, Norway has one of the lowest incarceration rates in the Western world. The U.S. rate is about 700. One Norwegian prison in Bastoey is on an island where inmates live in wooden cottages and can fish, raise vegetables and cook out.
Nils Christie, a criminologist at the University of Oslo, calls the queue "a sign of a civil and humane society because it indicates that most criminals are ordinary people, able to wait in line just like other people."
But today Norway has a rising crime rate, and the queue is getting out of hand. In the past four years, the line of convicts waiting to do their time nearly tripled to 2,762 -- roughly the same size as the entire Norwegian prison population of 2,900 inmates.
"There's more violence, more drugs, more thefts," laments Carl-Hugo Lund, a district judge in a sparsely populated area near the Swedish border. When he convicts people, they often ask when the sentence will start. His typical response: "I don't know."
Lawyers, judges and politicians are starting to complain that the queue is unfair both to victims and criminals, and could undermine the whole point of the criminal-justice system. Adding to their worries are plans to lengthen prison sentences for some serious crimes, further worsening wait times.
"The queue is definitely a problem," acknowledges Torgeir Heimli, assistant director-general of the corrections department at Norway's Ministry of Justice. To provide swifter justice, Norway plans to build its first new prison since 1997 and recently converted a shuttered military camp into a 40-bed facility. Corrections officials hope to add at least 450 new prison beds by 2006. The Justice Ministry also hopes lawmakers can free up more cells by allowing judges to impose fines and community service instead of prison time for minor offenses such as smoking marijuana.
Meanwhile, Norwegian criminals keep lining up -- and counting the days until their lockup. "Going to prison is a down period in your life. You want to put it behind yourself as soon as possible," says Terje Christensen, a 44-year-old former papermill worker living in the small town of Askim. Mr. Christensen was sentenced last year to 24 days in prison following a drunken run-in at a local club. After ignoring bouncers' request to leave, police say Mr. Christensen punched an officer, an accusation he denies.
In Limbo
Mr. Christensen, suffering from diabetes and arthritis and living on government disability checks, worries that the limbo could scare off potential employers. He also wonders if he'll be able to use airplane tickets he booked to take his family on a vacation this summer. "It's not so easy to plan for the future if you don't know when you'll have to go to jail," he says.
While most of the convicted criminals in Norway's prison queue are convicted of relatively minor, nonviolent crimes, a small minority are guilty of serious offenses such as spouse abuse and indecent exposure. The worst offenders, including anyone convicted of murder or rape, are sent straight to prison. The average criminal spends 77 days in line.
Eva Frivold, a lawyer in Askim, near Oslo, says one of her clients was beaten by her husband, who got a sentence of several months in prison. Before reaching the front of the line, the man attacked his wife again, forcing her to flee to a women's shelter. Ms. Frivold says victims ask the same question over and over: Why don't attackers go to jail right away?
Mr. Heimli, the Norwegian corrections official, acknowledges that delaying the lockup of criminals may rattle their victims. He says new crimes by people stuck in the queue aren't common.
During his four-year wait, Mr. Sandli was dogged by headaches and sleepless nights because of uncertainty over when he'd be imprisoned. "Every time I wanted to tell her, I'd say: 'No, no, no,' " Mr. Sandli recalled during a Sunday visit home from prison. "But the longer I waited, the more difficult it became."
Mr. Sandli, now 40 years old, had been arrested while on his way to sell hashish, and cops later found a stash in his apartment. He pleaded guilty to drug possession and dealing. He has no other criminal record, according to his lawyer.
Putting It Off
Three months into the prison queue, Mr. Sandli spotted Ms. Hassan, but kept the conviction to himself. Every time Mr. Sandli thought he had found the courage to tell her, something got in the way. First, his girlfriend's estranged ex-husband and father of her two children committed suicide. Ms. Hassan's own father died about a year later, and then so did Mr. Sandli's. He quit asking his lawyer to put him behind bars as fast as possible.
Ms. Hassan, who is 38, knew her boyfriend had been mixed up in drugs, but she thought the problems were over once he landed a job in a print shop. After his conviction, Mr. Sandli barbecued on the front porch, cleaned the house and developed an obsession for mowing the lawn so closely that it looked like a putting green. Their son was born in October 2000.
On the day he confessed, Ms. Hassan first felt angry, and then sorry for Mr. Sandli. She told her two older children that the man they viewed as their stepfather would be locked up. The boys asked if he would have any food there. The next day, Ms. Hassan drove Mr. Sandli to prison, with the kids in the backseat.
Ms. Hassan never thought of leaving Mr. Sandli. "I forgave him," she says. But dealing with his disappearance isn't easy. Her monthly salary of 15,000 kroner ($2,185 or €1,900) barely covers the mortgage payment, so their two mothers pitch in with money and babysitting.
Yet there are moments when it feels as if Mr. Sandli still is there. During dinners with friends, Ms. Hassan often sets out a glass of cognac for her absent boyfriend. He could be freed in December, a year early, if he is a model inmate.
Mr. Sandli sees one silver lining. If he had been sent to jail right away, he says, he never would have met Ms. Hassan. "At least something good came out of it."
\\
He waited 4 years to tell his wife he had to go to prison! That's a despicable omission on a Clintonian scale.
Wall Street Journal ^ | june 5, 2003 | PHILIP SHISHKIN
Posted on 06/05/2003 2:18 AM PDT by The Raven
OSLO -- Aida Hassan was halfway through a routine day in the office when her boyfriend called. "I must tell you something," he said. "Can you come home for lunch?"
The couple had met in a disco four years earlier. Then they had a child, bought a house and settled into suburban life. They talked about getting married.
Now Vidar Sandli had shocking news: The next day, he would go off to prison.
In 1998, four months before he asked Ms. Hassan for their first dance, Mr. Sandli was arrested with nearly 4-1/2 pounds of hashish. Norway's strict drug laws got him a three-year prison sentence. But because the country is chronically short on jail space and he hadn't committed a violent crime, Mr. Sandli was told he would wait months or even years to do his time. In the meantime, he cleaned up his life -- but didn't tell his new love about the ghost in his past. When he finally had no choice, "my whole body just collapsed," Ms. Hassan recalls.
Here in Norway, they call it the "prison queue." The system reflects Norway's long humanitarian tradition and mild attitude toward imprisonment. At 60 inmates per 100,000 citizens, Norway has one of the lowest incarceration rates in the Western world. The U.S. rate is about 700. One Norwegian prison in Bastoey is on an island where inmates live in wooden cottages and can fish, raise vegetables and cook out.
Nils Christie, a criminologist at the University of Oslo, calls the queue "a sign of a civil and humane society because it indicates that most criminals are ordinary people, able to wait in line just like other people."
But today Norway has a rising crime rate, and the queue is getting out of hand. In the past four years, the line of convicts waiting to do their time nearly tripled to 2,762 -- roughly the same size as the entire Norwegian prison population of 2,900 inmates.
"There's more violence, more drugs, more thefts," laments Carl-Hugo Lund, a district judge in a sparsely populated area near the Swedish border. When he convicts people, they often ask when the sentence will start. His typical response: "I don't know."
Lawyers, judges and politicians are starting to complain that the queue is unfair both to victims and criminals, and could undermine the whole point of the criminal-justice system. Adding to their worries are plans to lengthen prison sentences for some serious crimes, further worsening wait times.
"The queue is definitely a problem," acknowledges Torgeir Heimli, assistant director-general of the corrections department at Norway's Ministry of Justice. To provide swifter justice, Norway plans to build its first new prison since 1997 and recently converted a shuttered military camp into a 40-bed facility. Corrections officials hope to add at least 450 new prison beds by 2006. The Justice Ministry also hopes lawmakers can free up more cells by allowing judges to impose fines and community service instead of prison time for minor offenses such as smoking marijuana.
Meanwhile, Norwegian criminals keep lining up -- and counting the days until their lockup. "Going to prison is a down period in your life. You want to put it behind yourself as soon as possible," says Terje Christensen, a 44-year-old former papermill worker living in the small town of Askim. Mr. Christensen was sentenced last year to 24 days in prison following a drunken run-in at a local club. After ignoring bouncers' request to leave, police say Mr. Christensen punched an officer, an accusation he denies.
In Limbo
Mr. Christensen, suffering from diabetes and arthritis and living on government disability checks, worries that the limbo could scare off potential employers. He also wonders if he'll be able to use airplane tickets he booked to take his family on a vacation this summer. "It's not so easy to plan for the future if you don't know when you'll have to go to jail," he says.
While most of the convicted criminals in Norway's prison queue are convicted of relatively minor, nonviolent crimes, a small minority are guilty of serious offenses such as spouse abuse and indecent exposure. The worst offenders, including anyone convicted of murder or rape, are sent straight to prison. The average criminal spends 77 days in line.
Eva Frivold, a lawyer in Askim, near Oslo, says one of her clients was beaten by her husband, who got a sentence of several months in prison. Before reaching the front of the line, the man attacked his wife again, forcing her to flee to a women's shelter. Ms. Frivold says victims ask the same question over and over: Why don't attackers go to jail right away?
Mr. Heimli, the Norwegian corrections official, acknowledges that delaying the lockup of criminals may rattle their victims. He says new crimes by people stuck in the queue aren't common.
During his four-year wait, Mr. Sandli was dogged by headaches and sleepless nights because of uncertainty over when he'd be imprisoned. "Every time I wanted to tell her, I'd say: 'No, no, no,' " Mr. Sandli recalled during a Sunday visit home from prison. "But the longer I waited, the more difficult it became."
Mr. Sandli, now 40 years old, had been arrested while on his way to sell hashish, and cops later found a stash in his apartment. He pleaded guilty to drug possession and dealing. He has no other criminal record, according to his lawyer.
Putting It Off
Three months into the prison queue, Mr. Sandli spotted Ms. Hassan, but kept the conviction to himself. Every time Mr. Sandli thought he had found the courage to tell her, something got in the way. First, his girlfriend's estranged ex-husband and father of her two children committed suicide. Ms. Hassan's own father died about a year later, and then so did Mr. Sandli's. He quit asking his lawyer to put him behind bars as fast as possible.
Ms. Hassan, who is 38, knew her boyfriend had been mixed up in drugs, but she thought the problems were over once he landed a job in a print shop. After his conviction, Mr. Sandli barbecued on the front porch, cleaned the house and developed an obsession for mowing the lawn so closely that it looked like a putting green. Their son was born in October 2000.
On the day he confessed, Ms. Hassan first felt angry, and then sorry for Mr. Sandli. She told her two older children that the man they viewed as their stepfather would be locked up. The boys asked if he would have any food there. The next day, Ms. Hassan drove Mr. Sandli to prison, with the kids in the backseat.
Ms. Hassan never thought of leaving Mr. Sandli. "I forgave him," she says. But dealing with his disappearance isn't easy. Her monthly salary of 15,000 kroner ($2,185 or €1,900) barely covers the mortgage payment, so their two mothers pitch in with money and babysitting.
Yet there are moments when it feels as if Mr. Sandli still is there. During dinners with friends, Ms. Hassan often sets out a glass of cognac for her absent boyfriend. He could be freed in December, a year early, if he is a model inmate.
Mr. Sandli sees one silver lining. If he had been sent to jail right away, he says, he never would have met Ms. Hassan. "At least something good came out of it."
\\
He waited 4 years to tell his wife he had to go to prison! That's a despicable omission on a Clintonian scale.
yes,but she's cool with it. norway was once a location that scared all europe.now they're cool to each other.there are few in prison,the judge is complaining but overall there are few problems compared to the u.s..the nice point about that article is that a society works without beating it's citizens.instead,they are encouraged to be grown-ups,civily.the REAL point of the article however,was the stupidity of making relatively minor offences jailable and how much of a burden that system is for regular people.also,that more serious offences are hard to punish because the system is clogged with drunk problems and pot smokers.this is the same in america.
he didn't lie she knew that he had had problems and now they're together(sort of).....
don't be so harsh and mean.just cool,mon.irie now.chill.be the cool one you are to your grandaughter,grandpa.we are your children.....
respect.
he didn't lie she knew that he had had problems and now they're together(sort of).....
don't be so harsh and mean.just cool,mon.irie now.chill.be the cool one you are to your grandaughter,grandpa.we are your children.....
respect.
-
kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
rants? A thread for just rants? I got a very personal rant.
Why do I frickin' need a doctor's degree to get big grants!
pheweee.. I'm preparin' to go to school again starting next year to get my master's degree.. and maybe doctor's, for what? Just so I can do my creative work. The market's dead, so they won't "grant" me to do crap. So, now I have to turn to a bunch of high society intellects for funding. And I need a doctor's degree so they'll take notice of me? pheweeee! That's a lot of cow maneuer for all I care.
but d'you all know... the academic world has LOTS of money to spend? (grin)
Why do I frickin' need a doctor's degree to get big grants!
pheweee.. I'm preparin' to go to school again starting next year to get my master's degree.. and maybe doctor's, for what? Just so I can do my creative work. The market's dead, so they won't "grant" me to do crap. So, now I have to turn to a bunch of high society intellects for funding. And I need a doctor's degree so they'll take notice of me? pheweeee! That's a lot of cow maneuer for all I care.
but d'you all know... the academic world has LOTS of money to spend? (grin)
well, Ken, I had exactly that in mind when I left high-school...
Man, how I miss that degree today ! Life would be much more fun with it.
People are so incredibly stupid they'll believe any shit you tell them - and even pay for it - if you own just that little piece of paper
Imagine the Austrians (they are unbeatable in the field of titles and degrees) when the Doktor from far east enters Salzburg at Festspiel-Zeit
... voices start to whisper, people nodding in your direction...
enjoy and laugh about it, Tom
Man, how I miss that degree today ! Life would be much more fun with it.
People are so incredibly stupid they'll believe any shit you tell them - and even pay for it - if you own just that little piece of paper
Imagine the Austrians (they are unbeatable in the field of titles and degrees) when the Doktor from far east enters Salzburg at Festspiel-Zeit
... voices start to whisper, people nodding in your direction...enjoy and laugh about it, Tom
-
next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
-
lifechanger
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Chicago
- Contact:
No...this is a rant forum for us, and for creditors of Creamware....!!
Social Democrats takes on Islam.
The social democrats is now challenging the arab world, and concludes that western values are superior to the religious and undemocratic values that are prevalent in many middle eastern and northern African countries.
In their new foreign policy initiative which is published next week.
Western Values shall be rewarded.
The middle east in pinpointed as the most important area where foreign aid shall be purposefully used to reward countries and governments that encourages and develops westen values such as democracy, human rights, and good governance. Mellemøsten udpeges som det vigtigste område, hvor bistandshjælp målrettet skal bruges til at belønne lande og regeringer, der udvikler vestlige værdier som demokrati, menneskerettigheder og god regeringsførelse.
Mogens Lykketoft has together with pary collegues challenged Islam. "There can exist no doubt that any religous deviations from these standards are not acceptable, and will not be tolerated by the social democrats. ...
Jeppe Kofod admits that the Social democrats are challenging many taboos relating to Islam and the arab world. The new initiative underlines the political earthquake that has occured within the Social Democrats. - "This is a challenge to some of the taboos which have been traditionally held on the left that one shouldn't actively be imperialistic about western values. But, we should be. The development problems in the arab world are largely of their own making, and that a fundamentalistic interpretation of Islam is worsening the problems. Therefore, Denmark shall have strict conditions on its interaction with countries such as Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran.
The new social democratic position is in line with the conservative governments plans. "We must have the courage to "exort" our democratic values to the countries of the middle east", said prime minister Anders F. Rasmussed thursday in his constitution speech.
Amazing coming from the socialists.
Funny thing is that this sort of policy is just what they are critizing Bush for.
Gosh - the Islamists are violent, oppressive of women and intolerant to dissent. Who knew?
What a popular forum this will be, eh???
Social Democrats takes on Islam.
The social democrats is now challenging the arab world, and concludes that western values are superior to the religious and undemocratic values that are prevalent in many middle eastern and northern African countries.
In their new foreign policy initiative which is published next week.
Western Values shall be rewarded.
The middle east in pinpointed as the most important area where foreign aid shall be purposefully used to reward countries and governments that encourages and develops westen values such as democracy, human rights, and good governance. Mellemøsten udpeges som det vigtigste område, hvor bistandshjælp målrettet skal bruges til at belønne lande og regeringer, der udvikler vestlige værdier som demokrati, menneskerettigheder og god regeringsførelse.
Mogens Lykketoft has together with pary collegues challenged Islam. "There can exist no doubt that any religous deviations from these standards are not acceptable, and will not be tolerated by the social democrats. ...
Jeppe Kofod admits that the Social democrats are challenging many taboos relating to Islam and the arab world. The new initiative underlines the political earthquake that has occured within the Social Democrats. - "This is a challenge to some of the taboos which have been traditionally held on the left that one shouldn't actively be imperialistic about western values. But, we should be. The development problems in the arab world are largely of their own making, and that a fundamentalistic interpretation of Islam is worsening the problems. Therefore, Denmark shall have strict conditions on its interaction with countries such as Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran.
The new social democratic position is in line with the conservative governments plans. "We must have the courage to "exort" our democratic values to the countries of the middle east", said prime minister Anders F. Rasmussed thursday in his constitution speech.
Amazing coming from the socialists.
Funny thing is that this sort of policy is just what they are critizing Bush for.
Gosh - the Islamists are violent, oppressive of women and intolerant to dissent. Who knew?
What a popular forum this will be, eh???
-
John Cooper
- Moderator
- Posts: 1182
- Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Planet Z
- Contact:
RANT!
LC, I know you're twice my age. However, that gives you no right to ignore the respectful requests which I've sent you privately. You persist in polluting my virtual home, these planetz pages, with your self-indulgent soapbox B.S. I do NOT care what your political views are. Neither does ANYONE else here. This is not a place for political debate, nor a place for you to teach the youngsters of the wisdom you have gathered in your many years.
I know that many of your posts in the past have actually been ON topic, and appropriate and relevant. That's all great. However, ...
Remember this?
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&start=0
This was a fun one:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 2&forum=31
And who could forget our new favorite:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... &start=160
I can't possibly begin to conceive what your motivation is to make posts like this, here in a forum which is intended for musicians to share with each other.
LC, you have made me wish I had never created an "off-topic" forum. It's times like this I'd MUCH rather just shut down these damn forums rather than deal with this crap.
Why haven't I just banned LC? Why should I be excercising restraint, when this guy has violated the planetz membership agreement on so many occasions? Ah, the trials of being a moderator. I hate banning - it sucks. LC is just begging me to step on his freedom of speech so he can go ballistic over how anti-american I am. Perhaps he's baiting me me to ban him so he can have some deluded satisfaction of superiority? I don't know.
But I'm tired. I enjoyed the forums much more when LC wasn't around, (or at least when he stayed on topic). So that's it - final ultimatum. Next time I see one word of political commentary, one mildly offensive joke, one ethnocentric/racist/sexist/homophobic or otherwise culturally insensitive remark from you LC, you WILL be escorted out, without futher discussion or warning. Any email to me after that will be blacklisted and will never be read.
There is nothing to discuss here, so you need not reply, nor send accusations of cowardice or collusion or whatever.
It's my house, my rules. I've been exceedingly generous and patient already. It's your choice whether you stay or go.
-John
LC, I know you're twice my age. However, that gives you no right to ignore the respectful requests which I've sent you privately. You persist in polluting my virtual home, these planetz pages, with your self-indulgent soapbox B.S. I do NOT care what your political views are. Neither does ANYONE else here. This is not a place for political debate, nor a place for you to teach the youngsters of the wisdom you have gathered in your many years.
I know that many of your posts in the past have actually been ON topic, and appropriate and relevant. That's all great. However, ...
Remember this?
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&start=0
This was a fun one:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 2&forum=31
And who could forget our new favorite:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... &start=160
I can't possibly begin to conceive what your motivation is to make posts like this, here in a forum which is intended for musicians to share with each other.
LC, you have made me wish I had never created an "off-topic" forum. It's times like this I'd MUCH rather just shut down these damn forums rather than deal with this crap.
Why haven't I just banned LC? Why should I be excercising restraint, when this guy has violated the planetz membership agreement on so many occasions? Ah, the trials of being a moderator. I hate banning - it sucks. LC is just begging me to step on his freedom of speech so he can go ballistic over how anti-american I am. Perhaps he's baiting me me to ban him so he can have some deluded satisfaction of superiority? I don't know.
But I'm tired. I enjoyed the forums much more when LC wasn't around, (or at least when he stayed on topic). So that's it - final ultimatum. Next time I see one word of political commentary, one mildly offensive joke, one ethnocentric/racist/sexist/homophobic or otherwise culturally insensitive remark from you LC, you WILL be escorted out, without futher discussion or warning. Any email to me after that will be blacklisted and will never be read.
There is nothing to discuss here, so you need not reply, nor send accusations of cowardice or collusion or whatever.
It's my house, my rules. I've been exceedingly generous and patient already. It's your choice whether you stay or go.
-John