The masses of lefties at the anti-America rally in SF could not get enough of the dozen or so counter protestors who occupied the high ground on the steps of city hall. I was one of them, along with my daughter, who's sign, "America's Enemies Thank You For Your Support" seemed to offend some people. The cops were behind us and we appeared to be protecting them from hordes of screaming, chanting, spitting leftists who were horrified by the very presence of people who didn't agree with them.
A young Palestinian boy told us that he'd like to kill all the Jews. I'm not sure why he told us that, but one of our group rolled up her American flag sleeves and asked if he'd like to begin with her. He decided against it. Occasionally, an organiser from the dark side, would exhort the crowd with his megaphone to please go back to the rally and leave us alone. He was concerned they wouldn't appear to be peaceful on the evening news, and we were getting too much damn attention. They ignored him as they weren't really there for peace anyway. We fielded numerous requests for interviews as if we were celebrities. Of course the celebrities were across the street, headed by President Sheen.
My sign, "Leftists hate America" caused widespread consternation. A woman, Maria, told me she was a leftist and didn't hate America, so I said I'd add "except Maria"to the sign. I lied. One leftover 60s peacenik woman having a bad day called me a fascist for daring to be there. Spit flying, she gave me both barrels and screamed, "Get out of my vagina!!" It seemed an unusual request as it's not a place I was interested in visiting anyway. Her male companion said I should send my son to Iraq. I said maybe he could volunteer as a sub human shield. Another guy shrieked at me that Israel was a terrorist state, as if we'd been interrupted mid conversation. I thanked him for sharing.
A group of pro Pali women who appeared to be lesbians for oppression kept trying to hide our signs with their Pali flag. One wore a burkha, and was obviously a confused lesbian. I did ask one of them if they didn't think it was a good idea to liberate all the women in the moribund Middle East, and did she know that they'd be stoned to death there for being lesbian and wasn't this a great country that we could do this. She agreed! But it may have been out of fear, as I was obviously the first RIGHTWING FASCIST she'd ever encountered.
At one point, a chant of "Peace, not war" broke out. The peace crowd, shaking fists in our direction, looked angry and decidedly unpeaceful. By now they were completely mixed up in our group, determined to take over our little space. They had thousands of people there, we were completely outnumbered, but our presence was too much for them. Kind of like the Palis and Israelis. Someone grabbed a participant's sign, "Fry Mumia" and ran into the crowd. They were becoming emboldened and I really think if the cops hadn't been there anything was possible.
A "reporter" from the SF Chronicle asked me for an interview. She was wearing a media badge with her name on it and underneath it said "No War in Iraq." I declined the interview. For some reason I doubted her objectivity.
We left soon after. It is obvious that leftists are furious, frustrated and maybe need a group hug.
Leftist in America..Communism for Dummies....
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lifechanger
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:00 pm
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You just want to pick a fight like you did before.
In America liberals are the minority. Judging by the votes in the last election a slim majority wanted Gore to be president over Bush. I take some comfort in that. Over seas the vast majority of people are against the war on Iraq.
If you want to start a debate this would be a good place to do it. I would imagine most of us here at Planet Z are very liberal and I count myself as one. The most American thing you can do as an American is question our authority. Remember the Boston Tea party? Recently Bush's ratings have slipped considerably. Are you feeling insecure at this time?
In America liberals are the minority. Judging by the votes in the last election a slim majority wanted Gore to be president over Bush. I take some comfort in that. Over seas the vast majority of people are against the war on Iraq.
If you want to start a debate this would be a good place to do it. I would imagine most of us here at Planet Z are very liberal and I count myself as one. The most American thing you can do as an American is question our authority. Remember the Boston Tea party? Recently Bush's ratings have slipped considerably. Are you feeling insecure at this time?
Lifechanger, whatever the cause or motivation that was a brave thing to do. I've seen several times for myself the incredible transformation that can come over people when they're in a like-minded crowd. Whether they are protesting, or have just spontaneously formed a mob, people seem to "lose themselves" in the group.
I once saw a mob on Oxford St Sydney on new year's eve form up in a matter of seconds, block the road, and attack cars as they tried to pas through. About six cars were damaged - kicked in panels and smashed lights. In minutes - and before any Police could arrive - it was over and the fever of violence just melted back into the crowd without a trace. Really amazing to see.
An excellent book on this topic is "Among the Thugs" about a guy who lived and travelled with hard-core English soccer fans for several years.
And most protests do attract a proportion of nutters, people who will protest about anything because they like the lifestyle.
In fact an acquaintance of mine is a classic: She lives on social security payments, has a child but refuses to ask the father for support, goes to a free training course two days a week, and spends the rest of the time at any available protest so long as it's anti-government or anti-west.
Unfortunately she can't see the irony of it all.
I once saw a mob on Oxford St Sydney on new year's eve form up in a matter of seconds, block the road, and attack cars as they tried to pas through. About six cars were damaged - kicked in panels and smashed lights. In minutes - and before any Police could arrive - it was over and the fever of violence just melted back into the crowd without a trace. Really amazing to see.
An excellent book on this topic is "Among the Thugs" about a guy who lived and travelled with hard-core English soccer fans for several years.
And most protests do attract a proportion of nutters, people who will protest about anything because they like the lifestyle.
In fact an acquaintance of mine is a classic: She lives on social security payments, has a child but refuses to ask the father for support, goes to a free training course two days a week, and spends the rest of the time at any available protest so long as it's anti-government or anti-west.
Unfortunately she can't see the irony of it all.
actually,if you follow the money trail you find that the real enemies of america are the real enemies of the world.they hate life and they hate humanity.they are in the government.they subject their own people to horrible atrocities in their wars(from u.s. tactical nukes,depleted uranium,chemical and biological weapons developed in u.s. labs and paid for with u.s. taxes and "psy-ops")they finger their freinds for the problems and always scapegoat the weak and poor.they send others to war,but all dodged the draft.they program the masses for hatred and bigotry.there are no human conflicts in the world that are not caused by greed and ignorance and plain meanness,the refusal to help out a fellow human and they take pleasure in starting violence.amerikkka as we know it is NOT democracy.it is DEMONacracy,the rule of demons.(demons hate life, especially human life and are happiest when humans suffer)
there is NOTHING to rejoice over if america destroys iraq.one might as well celebrate smashing a potato chip.PEOPLE will suffer from such a war and the world will be no safer.the u.n. estimates that 500,000 CHILDREN have died from the first gulf war from radiation poisining,bad water and lack of food,all due to constant bombing(the u.s. and britain bombs them daily).america will have oil but, so what! in a few years the use of that oil will permanantly make this place unihabitable by humans.demons win.
there is NOTHING to rejoice over if america destroys iraq.one might as well celebrate smashing a potato chip.PEOPLE will suffer from such a war and the world will be no safer.the u.n. estimates that 500,000 CHILDREN have died from the first gulf war from radiation poisining,bad water and lack of food,all due to constant bombing(the u.s. and britain bombs them daily).america will have oil but, so what! in a few years the use of that oil will permanantly make this place unihabitable by humans.demons win.
Ahhh . . . I'm not defending Lifechanger's views, but isn't his post merely a description of him putting across his point of view at a rally ? I thought it was quite interesting.
I'll defend anyone's right to express their views, whether they are captialists, communists, facists, maoist, fundamentalists, buddhists, gays, animals rights activists, farmers, oil company execs or realiens.
I'll defend anyone's right to express their views, whether they are captialists, communists, facists, maoist, fundamentalists, buddhists, gays, animals rights activists, farmers, oil company execs or realiens.
yep,his opinion can be aired,even if it's "kill niggers".(i know it's not, i said "even if") and it's really shameful the way those "peace activists" responded to obvious badgering in a political situation.it's also unfortunate that we're down to holding signs at each other rather than discussion and common interest and respect.that's all part of it.the protester was wrong to let it get personal,and lifechanger was wrong for trying to make it personal.no one wants to have a bad life.no one wants to see the country suffer needlessly,no one is trying to air their veiws to hurt some one else.(or are they?)
let's not forget what it's about though,as popeye the sailor sed:"wrong is wrong even if it helps ya!"
also,communism is a public library.or a public school.or a guy having a say and a stake in the company he makes money with and for others.communism does NOT exist and has NEVER existed in any major government in the memory of man EXCEPT maybe for a minute in the story of the israelites when they first got the law from moses,when they were told to take care of each other or be scattered among all the nations of the earth.(check that law...)or EXCEPT for a little bread company here or a farm there,which is fine.
please do not however,substitute rhetoric for dialog,opinions or worst yet,truth.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2003-01-23 02:21 ]</font>
let's not forget what it's about though,as popeye the sailor sed:"wrong is wrong even if it helps ya!"
also,communism is a public library.or a public school.or a guy having a say and a stake in the company he makes money with and for others.communism does NOT exist and has NEVER existed in any major government in the memory of man EXCEPT maybe for a minute in the story of the israelites when they first got the law from moses,when they were told to take care of each other or be scattered among all the nations of the earth.(check that law...)or EXCEPT for a little bread company here or a farm there,which is fine.
please do not however,substitute rhetoric for dialog,opinions or worst yet,truth.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2003-01-23 02:21 ]</font>
>>>>becouse of people like you,
jews like me in israel, and my palestinian brothers have to suffer war.
the world is not yours to destroy.
:Z
Aaah, things are possible after all, i wasn't sure of that, thanks for posting this muze
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2003-01-23 02:50 ]</font>
jews like me in israel, and my palestinian brothers have to suffer war.
the world is not yours to destroy.
:Z
Aaah, things are possible after all, i wasn't sure of that, thanks for posting this muze
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2003-01-23 02:50 ]</font>
Reading this topic , i ask myself who is oppressing who?Usa are not the only one,there is not only jews or arabs.Humans are like that every where(leftist or rightist they do the same)
Here is a "little" list of oppressing governments.
Peace
http://www.chez.com/juralibre/en/listen.htm
Here is a "little" list of oppressing governments.
Peace
http://www.chez.com/juralibre/en/listen.htm
Just what Garyb said. Exept around your stuff. Countries live in very poor conditions, because "WE" in the western world want as much as possible. A lot of consumer stuff are maid under poor conditions, because it is so far away and out of our mind, that we don't realy care, how the person, who made this DVD-player lives? Realy, if we wanted the people, who makes our things to have a decent life, the things would often be very much more expensive. And we don't want that. So we just please ourselves. All the information is available or potentionally available. It is not realy much of an excuse not to know. Because most people knows it, they just forget it rather quick - getting it out of their consiousness. But the clues are available every day - if we want to see them.
The western world is only about 10% of the world population. But to most of us, it is the easiest 10% to relate to. We are socialised to be able to relate to those 10% better than the ... "others". When we judge, if the world is a good place and a just (like in justice) place, most of us look at those 10%. And if those 10% are fine, then the world is fine. But reality is - we supress the majority of the human population by our greed and our lifestyle.
However, I do believe, that is quite natural to most humans. I don't think we are so very much more evolved than the so called primitive animals (talking about all animals here). It all reminds me of the Old philosoffer Jeremy Bentham. He made a system to use, when judging, if an action was good or bad. You have to evaluate pain vs. pleasure. And you have to weighten the scores. Someones pain of loosing their 12years old child will probably be bigger than the childs boy scout friends mother, who happened to think, that the 12years old child was so nice. And that is a central part of the calculation - distance. The nearer the pain or pleasure, the higher is the value. Some people say, that they care as much for any person. I think, that that is mostly in thier minds and in the way, they want to view themselves. They would very likely cry more over a close friends death, than over 39.000 thousend people starving to death every day (or, whatever the number is - it is huge enough to be only mentally sort-of judged, but not realy understood. Try counting to 1000, and you will get my point).
My point is, that it is natural to our primitive human race to be that way. Still, when have opened you eyes to the world - in good and in bad - then is the time, when your responsibillity realy begins. The world is as good, as it is bad (my belief). We can worry over others mistakes, and we can tell each other how stupid someone is. But I believe the mayority of people just want things to be the right way (they just do not alway agree on wich way, that is). Do, as Michael Jackson sang "I'm starting with the man in the mirror" (and no, I am not trying to turn the discussion into Michael Jackson's relationship with his mirror). From there, go the budhist way (one of them anyway - and in a more extreme version practiced only by the few), and let the world take care of itself, or go "the Bush way", and try to mold the world into the way, you find best. Or do something in between. But do it, because you believe it is right - what more can anyone ask of you?
Immanuel
The western world is only about 10% of the world population. But to most of us, it is the easiest 10% to relate to. We are socialised to be able to relate to those 10% better than the ... "others". When we judge, if the world is a good place and a just (like in justice) place, most of us look at those 10%. And if those 10% are fine, then the world is fine. But reality is - we supress the majority of the human population by our greed and our lifestyle.
However, I do believe, that is quite natural to most humans. I don't think we are so very much more evolved than the so called primitive animals (talking about all animals here). It all reminds me of the Old philosoffer Jeremy Bentham. He made a system to use, when judging, if an action was good or bad. You have to evaluate pain vs. pleasure. And you have to weighten the scores. Someones pain of loosing their 12years old child will probably be bigger than the childs boy scout friends mother, who happened to think, that the 12years old child was so nice. And that is a central part of the calculation - distance. The nearer the pain or pleasure, the higher is the value. Some people say, that they care as much for any person. I think, that that is mostly in thier minds and in the way, they want to view themselves. They would very likely cry more over a close friends death, than over 39.000 thousend people starving to death every day (or, whatever the number is - it is huge enough to be only mentally sort-of judged, but not realy understood. Try counting to 1000, and you will get my point).
My point is, that it is natural to our primitive human race to be that way. Still, when have opened you eyes to the world - in good and in bad - then is the time, when your responsibillity realy begins. The world is as good, as it is bad (my belief). We can worry over others mistakes, and we can tell each other how stupid someone is. But I believe the mayority of people just want things to be the right way (they just do not alway agree on wich way, that is). Do, as Michael Jackson sang "I'm starting with the man in the mirror" (and no, I am not trying to turn the discussion into Michael Jackson's relationship with his mirror). From there, go the budhist way (one of them anyway - and in a more extreme version practiced only by the few), and let the world take care of itself, or go "the Bush way", and try to mold the world into the way, you find best. Or do something in between. But do it, because you believe it is right - what more can anyone ask of you?
Immanuel
Information for new readers: A forum member named Braincell is known for spreading lies and malicious information without even knowing the basics of, what he is talking about. If noone responds to him, it is because he is ignored.
The borders are there to protect our wellfare. If all people where alowed to live, where ever they wanted, there would be so many more mouths to feed (well, I come from a social liberal country, where people are taken pretty good care of, if they have no jobs (imo)). And if people where not feed, they would have to steal to get food.
So, that is, what it comes down to. Most of us want to help, but are we ready to pay the price? My bet is, that only few of us will be able to have CW cards, if we had to share with everybody. And no, I do not count in the money form the billionaires. If they wanted to share without a blood dripping fight, they wouldn't have that many money in the first palce.
So, that is, what it comes down to. Most of us want to help, but are we ready to pay the price? My bet is, that only few of us will be able to have CW cards, if we had to share with everybody. And no, I do not count in the money form the billionaires. If they wanted to share without a blood dripping fight, they wouldn't have that many money in the first palce.
Information for new readers: A forum member named Braincell is known for spreading lies and malicious information without even knowing the basics of, what he is talking about. If noone responds to him, it is because he is ignored.