Assuming more and more of our work is going to end up being rendered via a PC, what would your dream interface be?
Right now we have mouse, trackball, keyboard, multiple screens, maybe tablets, boxes of assignable knobs, and more sophicticated sets of knobs like the HUI or Logic Control. As far as an intuitive interface which doesn't get in the way, none of these works for me.
My dream (for composing/programming/sequencing - not engineering)is a simple large touch sensitive screen. Pull up your application and access functions by touching/dragging the switches/knobs and sliders which you see on the screen.
This way you wouldn't have to assign hardware knobs, you wouldn't have to remember what switch#3 in the top left row of your control surface does.
If you see a function, you reach out and change it, just as you do on a hardware surface.
Goodbye mouse, goodbye keyboard.
The OS would link screen position to app function, just as it does for the mouse now, so there's no problem with loading up a new plugin, sliding it over to the bottom right of your monitor and beginning to play with it straight away.
I just want to be clear that I don't think any engineer will EVER accept an interface that doesn't use long throw faders, but I'm no engineer and my mixes tend to use sequenced automation rather than live moves, so I don't care about the 'feel' of the knobs or switches.
I know there are resolution and cost factors to overcome, but I can't think of any more inutitive interface for PCs in the future. I think I've gotten tunnel vision over it. Anyone got a better alternative?
Dream Control Surface
that was my thought as well when I got the chance of buying a cheap Sony monitor with touch sensitive surface.
but no fun at all: on Pulsar it's impossible to move a slider without moving the whole device accidently.
But more important: you can only operate the screen controls sequentially. No sound morphing or comparison of the effects of multiple parameter changes (like the freq/res pair).
I was quite optimistic in first place because I remembered that Creaware prototype with the touch screen. Guess I know why they didn't continue that approach.
cheers, Tom
but no fun at all: on Pulsar it's impossible to move a slider without moving the whole device accidently. But more important: you can only operate the screen controls sequentially. No sound morphing or comparison of the effects of multiple parameter changes (like the freq/res pair).
I was quite optimistic in first place because I remembered that Creaware prototype with the touch screen. Guess I know why they didn't continue that approach.
cheers, Tom
I still think the idea's right, just bad implementation.
Why should dragging near a slider move the whole app? Surely they could limit the drag area to the title bar or something.
It would be nice to be able to move two things simultaneously, but I can live with doing stuff sequentially. There haven't been too many times when I wanted to move two sliders at the same time anyway.
Why should dragging near a slider move the whole app? Surely they could limit the drag area to the title bar or something.
It would be nice to be able to move two things simultaneously, but I can live with doing stuff sequentially. There haven't been too many times when I wanted to move two sliders at the same time anyway.
The other disappointing thing about touch screens is "arm fatigue". Reminds me of the old Fairlight I and II systems that used a lightpen, which seemed like a great idea at the time. Unfortunately if you used it for a long period your arm would feel like it's about to fall off, even with the screen in close vicinity! That's why they changed to the pen and touchpad system with the Series III.
Hmmm... just gave myself an idea... I've got one of those touchpad thingies on the computer I use for graphic design. It simply replaces the mouse so it might be useful for SFP. I'll give it a try and report back!
Hmmm... just gave myself an idea... I've got one of those touchpad thingies on the computer I use for graphic design. It simply replaces the mouse so it might be useful for SFP. I'll give it a try and report back!
Maybe if the touch sensitive screen was integrated in the desk? hmm, if the screen would react to any form of pressure that would probably cause a lot of accidental "touching" with elbows, coffee mugs and other non-musical elements ;o)
So I guess that would have to be coupled with some sort of pen or maybe some equipment to put on your finger(s).
While mentioning coffee, I also guess the device have to be quite protected. And the device should come with dedicated storage for paper towels and glass surface cleaner...
A different solution would be something I saw on television the other day. The pointer and even keyboard input was controlled by scanning brain activity - so you simply control your DAW with your mind. Now, they didn't say anything about "user requirements", but I assume this requires some sort of "organized thinking" and that alcohol, too much coffee or not enough rest could cause all kinds of frustrations...(hmm, like thinking "I must NOT answer YES to the question if I want to format my hard drive" and then somehow focus on the yes more than the not and then...*poof*)
So I guess that would have to be coupled with some sort of pen or maybe some equipment to put on your finger(s).
While mentioning coffee, I also guess the device have to be quite protected. And the device should come with dedicated storage for paper towels and glass surface cleaner...
A different solution would be something I saw on television the other day. The pointer and even keyboard input was controlled by scanning brain activity - so you simply control your DAW with your mind. Now, they didn't say anything about "user requirements", but I assume this requires some sort of "organized thinking" and that alcohol, too much coffee or not enough rest could cause all kinds of frustrations...(hmm, like thinking "I must NOT answer YES to the question if I want to format my hard drive" and then somehow focus on the yes more than the not and then...*poof*)
Intriguing idea Devo 
I built one of those "mind control" devices for my Commodore 64 back in the 80's. It worked pretty well as long as you were relaxed. Can't say anything about the effects of alcohol though - I was only about 12 years old! 
I should hope the technology has improved a great deal since then anyway!
Reporting back on my pen & tablet experiment:
Worked really well after a bit of calibration. I was able to manage a lot more accuracy with sliders and knobs, and it was quite comfortable to use. The only catch is that you'll need some desk space for the tablet. If you're not too hard pressed for room I recommend you give it a try. Quite an inexpensive alternative to touch screens, without the arm ache!
I built one of those "mind control" devices for my Commodore 64 back in the 80's. It worked pretty well as long as you were relaxed. Can't say anything about the effects of alcohol though - I was only about 12 years old! I should hope the technology has improved a great deal since then anyway!Reporting back on my pen & tablet experiment:
Worked really well after a bit of calibration. I was able to manage a lot more accuracy with sliders and knobs, and it was quite comfortable to use. The only catch is that you'll need some desk space for the tablet. If you're not too hard pressed for room I recommend you give it a try. Quite an inexpensive alternative to touch screens, without the arm ache!
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marcuspocus
- Posts: 2310
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Canada/France
I'd like voice control combined with some sort of visual monitoring. I know there is a device for severely disabled people which shines a beam into your eye and then tracks your eye movement. In this way the computer can determine where you're looking... Add voice control to that and you've have something like this:
(looking at mixer) "Bit more top, little less reverb" (looks at fader) "bit less; bit less. Solo for a second, OK". (Glances at synth icon) "LFOs please" (looks at filter section) "bit more on two; make that square wave".
Just like current voice dictation programs you'd teach it all your own shorthand.
As for your "environment" I'm imagining a wall-sized projected image with the operator relaxing on some couch, Roman-emporer style with a tiny throat mic....
(looking at mixer) "Bit more top, little less reverb" (looks at fader) "bit less; bit less. Solo for a second, OK". (Glances at synth icon) "LFOs please" (looks at filter section) "bit more on two; make that square wave".
Just like current voice dictation programs you'd teach it all your own shorthand.
As for your "environment" I'm imagining a wall-sized projected image with the operator relaxing on some couch, Roman-emporer style with a tiny throat mic....
hi Chadwick,On 2002-09-01 07:23, Chadwick wrote:
Why should dragging near a slider move the whole app? Surely they could limit the drag area to the title bar or something.
that was exactly the question I asked Cream's support on phone.
The answer was 'nope, we can't change sensitive area...' that's why I gave up on it. But the tablet thing like Wacom is great for super fast slidermovement
There's another device which might be of help if someone modifies it for musical purpose. A (typing) keyboard, which is projected on the table. The keypress is detected by a camera watching the position of you fingers. It could well detect different kinds of movement (a la Kaos Pad)and wouldn't be limited to a single event like the touchscreens.
cheers, Tom
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ontik
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Me Mum's Moot? Where u from? (Australia)
Can't believe I'm telling you this and not doing it myself.
But there's your fortune. Stick a post-it on your forhead saying: "Note to self, develop large touch screen monitor with accurate controls to revolutionize DAW industy. Make fortune and retire early."
Actually fuck it. I am gonna do it. You can be my competition if you want. I'll race ya.
And you might as well. If I did it and you didn't you'd be pissed huh?
)
This could be real fun indeed.
But there's your fortune. Stick a post-it on your forhead saying: "Note to self, develop large touch screen monitor with accurate controls to revolutionize DAW industy. Make fortune and retire early."
Actually fuck it. I am gonna do it. You can be my competition if you want. I'll race ya.
And you might as well. If I did it and you didn't you'd be pissed huh?
)This could be real fun indeed.
ontiK.
"If I have to explain, you won't understand."
"If I have to explain, you won't understand."
I think it´s too intrincated...please wake up...
Let´s see... Digital Mixer Yamaha 02R, even the newest version has a little screen. You must use keys and a rotary knob to surf in menus.
The Yamaha AW4416, a digital multitrack has more or less the same controls...
I can continue doing this with all the hardware that exists.
We have it ALL in a single and powerfull box. Not with that small LCD display that you have to adjust to the view angle, but 2 big 17 inch screens (may be any of you have 19 inch flat screens?).
The good thing is that you don´t need to dive in menues and submenues to find everything.
If you are not an engineer I guarantee that you can be really be panic of one of this stuff, all that lights all that buttons, and all that unsolving problems.
IN the other hand, in a really studio, you can´t stay in your sit to do EVERYTHING. That´s not good enought?
Put the ADAT Tapes in the ADAT Machine, format them, rewind. go to the back and route the TOSLINK cables, then back to the sit and start routing the mixer, get the DAT tape, insert in the machine, route the mixer digitally to the DAT machine, then start mixing, get some Bantamm cables to go to the patch bay and route any insert, go to the back racks and set up the digital fx...bla bla bla bla...
We can make all this in a big screen with a mouse, in just SECONDS, on the same sit...
THe PC, and the control surfaces are really really perfect right now, even better than the hardware (talking about control, view and integration).
IMagine an engineer asking for a guitar that can be played with a control surface, with knobs and faders!!
Control surface, or control interfaces can be better, and I think that we havn´t seen it all, but I hope that the new stuff don´t come in oposite with the hardware nature.
DJATWORK
Let´s see... Digital Mixer Yamaha 02R, even the newest version has a little screen. You must use keys and a rotary knob to surf in menus.
The Yamaha AW4416, a digital multitrack has more or less the same controls...
I can continue doing this with all the hardware that exists.
We have it ALL in a single and powerfull box. Not with that small LCD display that you have to adjust to the view angle, but 2 big 17 inch screens (may be any of you have 19 inch flat screens?).
The good thing is that you don´t need to dive in menues and submenues to find everything.
If you are not an engineer I guarantee that you can be really be panic of one of this stuff, all that lights all that buttons, and all that unsolving problems.
IN the other hand, in a really studio, you can´t stay in your sit to do EVERYTHING. That´s not good enought?
Put the ADAT Tapes in the ADAT Machine, format them, rewind. go to the back and route the TOSLINK cables, then back to the sit and start routing the mixer, get the DAT tape, insert in the machine, route the mixer digitally to the DAT machine, then start mixing, get some Bantamm cables to go to the patch bay and route any insert, go to the back racks and set up the digital fx...bla bla bla bla...
We can make all this in a big screen with a mouse, in just SECONDS, on the same sit...
THe PC, and the control surfaces are really really perfect right now, even better than the hardware (talking about control, view and integration).
IMagine an engineer asking for a guitar that can be played with a control surface, with knobs and faders!!
Control surface, or control interfaces can be better, and I think that we havn´t seen it all, but I hope that the new stuff don´t come in oposite with the hardware nature.
DJATWORK
Luis Maria Gonzalez Lentijo
DjatWork! Optimizaciones
Buenos Aires
Argentina
DjatWork! Optimizaciones
Buenos Aires
Argentina
Luis,
There's no doubt that it's too expensive right now - sheesh, a nice size plasma screen is about $5000US over here, even forgetting about putting some kind of touch screen layer on it as well.
BUT, once things start to get cheaper this has got to be the way of the future. Not for mixing, but for direct control of all that software which uses a graphical user interface.
Think about it - when you're using software which pretends to be hardware by showing you pictures of knobs switches and sliders, how much more direct control can you get than simply being able to touch the actual picture of the function and change it by sliding or tapping?
There's no doubt that it's too expensive right now - sheesh, a nice size plasma screen is about $5000US over here, even forgetting about putting some kind of touch screen layer on it as well.
BUT, once things start to get cheaper this has got to be the way of the future. Not for mixing, but for direct control of all that software which uses a graphical user interface.
Think about it - when you're using software which pretends to be hardware by showing you pictures of knobs switches and sliders, how much more direct control can you get than simply being able to touch the actual picture of the function and change it by sliding or tapping?
For me... direct control is record a MIDI sequence in Cubase and then reproduce it the times that I wan´t, changing it if it´s necessary...
The true... when I could have the money for buy a plasma screen to "real" control my "hardware-like" software, I´ll rather choose selling all my Software and buy a HARDWARE sampler, synth, multitrack, etc etc... software stuff gives you a lot of beneficts but real time control... for that you have the real hardware...
If you want real control, go for real hardware and make your life easy...
I think that we imagine "the future" in a very different way that it will be... MIDI is one of the most advanced things introduced in the studios... "instruments can talk", and its an invention that has more than 20 years of living... and it´s not completely explored nowadays...
In my opinion... future is knowledge... we are talking about sound and music, or about playing games?
for playing games there are MILLION of different things out there, that you can buy for only some hundred U$S...all the controllers and multimedia interfaces are invented...
there is a video game that let you "dance" in a screen... can´t you just go dancing in a disco?
There are around there a lot of Creamware users that want to know why the Wave driver does not support 24bits, or 32bits floating, and I´m shure that the 90% of them, doesn´t really know the difference and benefficts of those formats... you know why? because they don´t read the manuals...
We are living a big jump of the tecnology, I think like the car introducing, but remember that the car appears in the begginning of the past century and still here, almost like we had known it...so don´t spect a tecnological revolution every 5 years...
DJATWORK
The true... when I could have the money for buy a plasma screen to "real" control my "hardware-like" software, I´ll rather choose selling all my Software and buy a HARDWARE sampler, synth, multitrack, etc etc... software stuff gives you a lot of beneficts but real time control... for that you have the real hardware...
If you want real control, go for real hardware and make your life easy...
I think that we imagine "the future" in a very different way that it will be... MIDI is one of the most advanced things introduced in the studios... "instruments can talk", and its an invention that has more than 20 years of living... and it´s not completely explored nowadays...
In my opinion... future is knowledge... we are talking about sound and music, or about playing games?
for playing games there are MILLION of different things out there, that you can buy for only some hundred U$S...all the controllers and multimedia interfaces are invented...
there is a video game that let you "dance" in a screen... can´t you just go dancing in a disco?
There are around there a lot of Creamware users that want to know why the Wave driver does not support 24bits, or 32bits floating, and I´m shure that the 90% of them, doesn´t really know the difference and benefficts of those formats... you know why? because they don´t read the manuals...
We are living a big jump of the tecnology, I think like the car introducing, but remember that the car appears in the begginning of the past century and still here, almost like we had known it...so don´t spect a tecnological revolution every 5 years...
DJATWORK
Luis Maria Gonzalez Lentijo
DjatWork! Optimizaciones
Buenos Aires
Argentina
DjatWork! Optimizaciones
Buenos Aires
Argentina
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ontik
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Me Mum's Moot? Where u from? (Australia)
Imagine this.... ( and do read the dtail won't you.)
You have a touch sensitive flat panel monitor measuring H70cm X W120cm sitting flat on the desk in front of you (Actually elevated about 20 cm at the top end).
It acts like your current monitor but it can react to 2 mouse pointers (or say 4 so 2 users could work it at once). Instead of a mouse(s) you use two(or 4) devices that you hold with your fingertips (shaped like any slider handle on a real console) that work exactly like a mouse pointer when you slide/rotate them on the screen surface. 1:1 scale!!
You would work it just like any console only you could double tap on the buttons on the Start Bar (PC) to switch instantly between programs. The program interface would be displayed beneath your work space. and you would literally move your slider controls on the screen directly over the display. 1:1 Scale!!!!!!! Its just a 2D generic console made easy.
You would never need any interface drivers specific to your application. One driver to control the slightly modified mouse inputs.(Which could of course be used for any other regular computer function including DVD playback). Any standard video card with respectable resoultion would do the job too.
Cheap?? Not likely but what does a Pro Tools console cost, Houston or logic control? AND can you use them with SFP, Logic, Cubase, Sonar, Samplitude, Reason, (Insert application name here) INSTANTLY at the same time??? Can they Be used as a hang on the wall widescreen DVD Screen?? Did I hear someone say TV Tuner card?
No. If it cost $5K US you'd still buy it over a widescreen TV wouldn't you?? And get a loan to own one.
Imagine what it would do for design geeks??
Imagine TWO of them running big res for your consoles? Do I have to go on??
Please post any other ideas you think this couldn't do here.
You have a touch sensitive flat panel monitor measuring H70cm X W120cm sitting flat on the desk in front of you (Actually elevated about 20 cm at the top end).
It acts like your current monitor but it can react to 2 mouse pointers (or say 4 so 2 users could work it at once). Instead of a mouse(s) you use two(or 4) devices that you hold with your fingertips (shaped like any slider handle on a real console) that work exactly like a mouse pointer when you slide/rotate them on the screen surface. 1:1 scale!!
You would work it just like any console only you could double tap on the buttons on the Start Bar (PC) to switch instantly between programs. The program interface would be displayed beneath your work space. and you would literally move your slider controls on the screen directly over the display. 1:1 Scale!!!!!!! Its just a 2D generic console made easy.
You would never need any interface drivers specific to your application. One driver to control the slightly modified mouse inputs.(Which could of course be used for any other regular computer function including DVD playback). Any standard video card with respectable resoultion would do the job too.
Cheap?? Not likely but what does a Pro Tools console cost, Houston or logic control? AND can you use them with SFP, Logic, Cubase, Sonar, Samplitude, Reason, (Insert application name here) INSTANTLY at the same time??? Can they Be used as a hang on the wall widescreen DVD Screen?? Did I hear someone say TV Tuner card?
No. If it cost $5K US you'd still buy it over a widescreen TV wouldn't you?? And get a loan to own one.
Imagine what it would do for design geeks??
Imagine TWO of them running big res for your consoles? Do I have to go on??
Please post any other ideas you think this couldn't do here.
ontiK.
"If I have to explain, you won't understand."
"If I have to explain, you won't understand."
Onti,
That sounds pretty darned lateral and workable. It's really clever to leave the screen as it is and add mouse alternatives which your hand interfaces with.
I can't quite picture what you mean by 'slider handles' though.
How would you hold the handles?
How would you click and drag?
Would the handles actually rest on the screen, or above it, so that you don't get scratches?
Are we talking about a physical wired connection with optical mouse style sensor, or something more 'Minority Reportish', like and infra red sensor reading the position of a couple of transmitters which you have in/on your fingers/hands?
Suddenly the screen controller idea doesn't seem so far fetched...
That sounds pretty darned lateral and workable. It's really clever to leave the screen as it is and add mouse alternatives which your hand interfaces with.
I can't quite picture what you mean by 'slider handles' though.
How would you hold the handles?
How would you click and drag?
Would the handles actually rest on the screen, or above it, so that you don't get scratches?
Are we talking about a physical wired connection with optical mouse style sensor, or something more 'Minority Reportish', like and infra red sensor reading the position of a couple of transmitters which you have in/on your fingers/hands?
Suddenly the screen controller idea doesn't seem so far fetched...