A from inside the music business

coldmachine · Post by **coldmachine** » Tue May 28, 2002 9:16 am

I have been reading the posts here for a long time now.Ive only recently posted as I get little time.The purpose of this post is to offer my view of the Creamware platform as a music and sound production system.I hope this of interest to at least some of you and maybe restore the faith of a few.
Firstly who am I?If you Club or listen to "serious" dance music you will have heard my name and music.You will also have heard Remixes of mine.I have also been a programmer for "mainstream" artists.The only non commercial project I have been engaged in recently is creating a sound bank for John Bowen's fantastic Ambient synth,I will be repeating this for DarkStar too( these will become available to you all soon and have already been used in a number of releases).John has heard a small sample of the results i obtain from the platform and of my use of his synths and was very enthusiastic.This formed the basis of a future release which has already been "White labeled",and went down very well.As well as all my outboard I use 2 specially commissioned CW based systems one with 30 DSP and one with 45.I think I am more than qualified to give a professional view/appraisal of the Scope/Pulsar system or SFP as it is now called.Any views or comments I give are as a result of my own experience and much of what I say is a reflection of the fact that my computers are fully custom built and configured ,never have or will have any non music App and are not connected to the net.
I chose to have a creamware system as a result of seeing one in action during a remix job.I was amazed at the routing possibilities and the seamless integration with the ADAT machines I and many others use.The synths I felt were good,but the Modular stood out.I had used Reactor extensively(including 3rd party instruments)and felt that it had a fantastic list of modules and possibilities (better than CW Modular) but in use it sounded thin and weedy infact like a toy.The CW modular is able to compete with the only other serious modular contender.. the Nord.I later discovered John Bowens machines ( Ambient in particular),they are fully superior to ANY softsynths available.His Prophet shows up the short cuts taken with the NI Pro-52,which leads me to my next point...ALGORITHMS
Its been posted that this or that card are more powerful than the Sharc chips in terms of Mhz and Mflops,(my Sony desk is Sharc powered incidentally) and this is true.Its also argued that you need loads of DSP,that's also true ,but ive got loads so that point doesn't concern me.The CW boards are less powerful than some but where they totally out perform the opposition is the QUALITY of their ALGORITHMS.Give me sonic quality over unsupported Mhz any day.As an example a "friend" purchased an Oaysis based system and returned it in less than a week as he thought he was getting a similar thing to Scope.He came away with a Scope and now has added 2 SRB,even replacing 1 of his 2 ADATS with VDAT(which he swears by).I personally used 3 Akai 6000s I now have 1,the other two(replaced in the studio with the far superior STS5000 despite the odd gremlin) were sold and subsidised my SRBs.I did the same with my fully expanded Nord.When I get time to use VDAT one of my ADATs will go the same way.Now you can see the huge cost of my CW systems is not as high as you may have first assumed.When Cubase SX gives me the audio engine of Nuendo alongside Cubase sequencing and CW quality converters the smaller of our two Pro-Tools systems will be sold(if you want to complain about bugs.....PT is no better)The FX are not really highend although a couple of 3rd party verbs are cool and MasterVerb pro is pretty good.The Matering plugs Psy-Q and Optimaster get used all the time now and are first rate(and compare well with outboard TC).I must single out the Vocodiser for special mention,I have used both EMS and Senhieser vocoders and the Vocodiser is by far the best I have ever used.It is fantastic for vox,pads and loop/phrase/drum treatment.
Another criticism of the CW system is that it is too complicated.To anyone with REAL experience in a REAL studio, it is laid out well and is very simple and easy to master as it conforms to most studio conventions.This makes the mixers a pleasure to use.I do sympathise with those who do find it difficult.Some of the problems that even the pulsar "gurus" and "geeks" still seem have would not arise if there was a better understanding of studio workings.The traffic is 2 way though insofar as a non studio experienced CW owner would find the concepts in a studio easier to master than a purely VST guy.
I have taken the time to post here as I feel many people are worried about the future of the platform.I feel it is pretty secure.I've also been shown a few "works in progress" for the platform that are exiting.I could name a few other "known" players who use CW products(see this months Future Music article on Black Dog).Posters have also said that "Real Pros" dont visit these sites.WRONG.On here you tend NOT to get the tpypical VSTi site post of "I need a freeware Nord Lead emulator for my soundblaster" answered with " the Dash xxx is a perfect recreation but costs a staggering $25" or "I just sold my Pro Tools rig and my ADAT and my racks of Rolands and Waldorfs and replaced it all with FruityLoops and its much better,I've just finished an album on it"Talk about mass delusion by some or blatant bullshit by others.There are pro only sites that negate that problem.I have to laugh sometimes(even on here) when people claim to be "in the game" when its so obvious they're not,thats a different point though.
The CW system is a pro solution and as such deseves to be housed in a pro level computer.Most of the problems i have seen on here are due to bad configuration or being housed in multi-purpose machines.Shure the cards can be choosy but its all well documented.Digidesign is the same.The people I work with who have CW systems or single cards all have single purpose DAWs.A computer is NOT a DAW just because you tag on some music Software or god forbid,a bloody SB card.Ive even noticed a few questions which by thier nature indicate that cracked software is being used.Please dont jump on me if you think thats just affluent arrogance,im just giving a view from where i stand,which is with a hugely powerful,amazing sounding and almost flawless system.Any positive statements or opinions concerning instruments or plugs are as a result of more than a few releases/remixes from which I earn a nice living.Hope this provides food for thought and maybe a bit of reasurance for some.If anyone is interested I may be able to chip in a post relating to CW use in a real setting every couple of weeks.

PS Why use LSD when you can have DSP instesd

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Tue May 28, 2002 9:26 am

Interesting post, where can I buy your work? I'm always interested to hear finished commercial product utilizing CW gear.

You can email or PM me if you'd prefer.

Valium · Post by **Valium** » Tue May 28, 2002 9:30 am

Great post idd

I'm actually very interested in hearing 'bout your 'adventures' with CW in a studio environment. I have a small project studio but I think that it's kinda of errrr nothing compared to yours.

Greetz

and hope to read more from you ...

The Z Station · Post by **The Z Station** » Tue May 28, 2002 9:45 am

Salut!

Very well said and coudn't agree more! Looking forward to listening to your work!
Keep it up!

kimgr · Post by **kimgr** » Tue May 28, 2002 11:57 am

It's great to hear from someone who "knows"

I'm a ScopeManiac myself, also in the remix buissnes. You can hear some of it on http://home24.inet.tele.dk/kgr/
And now also developing new HiQ-plugz for the platform

Peace, Love & Sharcs forever...

Kim.

mano · Post by **mano** » Tue May 28, 2002 1:28 pm

Thanks for posting, definitly good information.

See you around

-mano

remixme · Post by **remixme** » Tue May 28, 2002 2:08 pm

45 dsps, now theres a sight to see!

Thanks for posting, I really would love to hear some of your work too, if its not too much trouble, just send me a private message.
I think planetz would really benefit from your presence here....

borg · Post by **borg** » Tue May 28, 2002 7:46 pm

indeed a nice post to read through (i'd sure like to know who you are

) and all your comments make perfect sense... but:

On 2002-05-28 10:16, coldmachine wrote:

The CW system is a pro solution and as such deseves to be housed in a pro level computer.Most of the problems i have seen on here are due to bad configuration or being housed in multi-purpose machines.

not all of us are on a pro level. i'm very happy to have 'just an old G3 and a pulsar II card', and yes, to be able to download updates and other things (plugs,...) i have another partition with internet stuff. but you gave me an idea... i'll start looking for a cheap second hand pc for this task, 'cause all i use my computer for is audio, internet and email, nothing else (i don't even have a word processor or graph apps).
thanks for the insight.

Unitar · Post by **Unitar** » Tue May 28, 2002 9:50 pm

Great post! I've trusted in Pulsar from the first sounds I got out of it. Now my home recordings are better sounding than anything we have done in the local studios and even better than most of my CD collection. I just got the Optimaster and been all smiles.

It feels like cheating when I can achieve satisfying results so easily. I can only wonder what some the gurus around here can come up with on their DSP powerhouses! Thanks CW!

Tony B · Post by **Tony B** » Wed May 29, 2002 12:54 am

Expelled all doubts. Very Positive post from COLDMACHINE there. That is a confidence boooooooster.If that post was earlier!!!!!!GOOD ADVICE MAN: A MUSIC PC IS A MUSIC PC. Need to hear MORE. I read that post six times already.

djody · Post by **djody** » Wed May 29, 2002 1:48 am

He he the barrikade has been broken...

I'm all with you and am glad you voiced your opinion. Bring along some more pro guyes if they want to join and bring us non pro up to speed.

I also want to buy a audio DAW that is only for audio purpose and i think if you take your self serious you defenitly should do this also.

I hate it when i get stopped in the middel of a storm of inspiration by a system error report that totally brings me in a bad vibe.

The system most be invisible when your working with it, the only thing around must be the workflow that leads to a genius production.

Good to hear this all.

Laterz

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at0m · Post by **at0m** » Wed May 29, 2002 2:28 am

Thanks a lot, it's nice to hear a real pro outing

I wish more of you pro's would do so. Big bump for the platform!

algorhythm · Post by **algorhythm** » Wed May 29, 2002 3:41 am

On 2002-05-28 10:16, coldmachine wrote:
The CW boards are less powerful than some but where they totally out perform the opposition is the QUALITY of their ALGORITHMS.

and we all know that it is all about the algorhythmz

Astral Fridge Magnet · Wed May 29, 2002 4:27 am

Interesting article. It already confirms what I aready knew. My set-up isn't as sophisticated as yours. My card is installed in an ordinary Dell Dimension 450 (though I will be upgrading soon) but it works perfectly and sounds absolutely amazing. I've luckily not experienced any of the problems other people seem to have experienced? I even have games and all sorts of unnecessary software installed in my DELL.
Buying a Pulsar was one of my best music equipment investments.

Regards

Weirdo The Weird

P.S. I too would like to hear some of your music

samuel40 · Post by **samuel40** » Wed May 29, 2002 12:13 pm

Great post DOh!!! did someone already say that!!! thanks again in all seriousness it helps to know what CAN be accomplished with this platform now all we have to do is put some know how behind what we have.

espicially with every one jumping on the pro tools bandwagon it's nice to know they have problems also and that someone who has had hands on experience prefers what we have is a great feeling

Post by **garyb** » Wed May 29, 2002 11:26 pm

i was reminded of this post in the cw forum.very well said!

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Thu May 30, 2002 2:46 am

Well that´s the same reason why I am here too... It was the quality that impressed me or the sound of just a few modules that I needed. I think that Creamware systems are ideal for certain tasks like "mastering" and "standalone effects unit" or "Gigasampler mixer". You need a special routing enviroment to master stuff, you need signal integrety, and the possibility to phase switch some channels for the MS process... In "real" world those engineers loose a bit of signal when the hook up gear connected whith AES cables. In fact every unit that gets hooked up to the chain does deteriorate the sound (copper cables, the higher the better...) The best cable one can have is the software-cable (project window), where almost no signal gets lost and where phase coherence is maintained! All those little things do also make a great sound! I´m using the best AES cables on the market (Apogee wide Eye), but they are not as clean as a software connection in the Project window. Also, it was proven by "Bob Katz" that a Sharc based DSP systems has sonic advantages over Motorola based systems. All those real facts did convince me to take the plunge. I´m also using 1 Scope and one SRB, that gives me a total of 30 DSPs which seems to be enough for me.

I´m curious, what IRQs did you "double/triple-Scope heads" assign to your cards. I´m running them on IRQ "5" and "10" whith an A7m266 (768Mb), so far no problems... But as I asked Creamware tech support if it would be possible to get a third card, they told me it was not recommended! What reason might that have?? Also, why isn´t it possible to assign each Scope IRQ-5?? And how is that whith the software upgrade?? Did those things change in a way on should assign different IRQs?? I know that depends on the motherboard, but it always made me wonder why I can´t assign both cards IRQ-5, since all "double Pulsar" users were able to do that...

Regards,
Sunshine

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Thu May 30, 2002 2:53 am

Note to ColdMachine et al.....

I agree with everything you said to a point. I'd like to address this same issue from another perspective: that of simple recording engineer at ground level (not a pro although I think of myself as a professional). Not a programming guru (although I do have computer science education).

I've had a love/hate relationship with Creamware products from day one (going on 5 years now). The biggest problem that I see is with Creamware themselves. Not necessarily the products. One of the things you mentioned that is near and dear to my heart is the PC/platform. If Pulsar or any of the CW products need to be run on a dedicated hi-end rackmount system, why in hell don't they just come out and say that in their sales & marketing material? Why lead potential buyers to think it's possible to install these products on a simple desktop PC? I think you've touched on what is the biggest problem with most people (me included). We were all led to believe these products could be installed in a normal desktop PC. Show me anywhere, in any Creamware brochure, user manual, webpage, etc... that specifically states that Scope/Pulsar can't peacefully coexist on a system with a LAN card or soundblaster or Norton Antivirus. Show me and I'll kiss your feet!!!

.

Show me in any Creamware released document or user manual that fully and clearly explains how to install the damn software and configure the OS and BIOS for audio production work. Show me please! No argument that some of this information is indeed included in the user manual. But like with many companies, Creamware's user manuals are as clear as mud. No! All this information comes filtering through other channels. Mainly, I think, through trial and error.

I would like to take this one step further: I believe it is possible to install these products in a simple desktop PC but where it all falls apart is in the choice of peripheral hardware (graphics cards, mobo's, etc.). Creamware, to my knowledge, has never, ever come out saying that such & such is the preferred configuration for their products. Whay not? Clearly, they must be designing and testing their products on something. What is it? What is the magic recipe? Must I buy my PC from one of the approved Creamware vendors in order to get a known working system?

Someone here once compared Pulsar to a science project gone wrong. I remember laughing to myself because it seemed like a valid statement. Maybe this is true with all the DAW-style systems. Maybe we're all just pioneers at the forefront of technology and 20 years from now we'll all look back and laugh.

In closing, let me say this: I'm with Creamware. I ain't jumping ship. I like the company, I like this forum and I like the people that frequent this forum. Creamware products are making me money. For the most part, the products sound great, are relatively easy to use and make me look good in front of clients.

I've gotten more help here than anywhere else which says something about the quality of the people here. I just hope and pray that Creamware devotes a little more time and attention to the user side of things. They don't seem like a very human company much of the time - it wasn't always like that by the way. I remember seeing Frank Hund in the Creamware tripleDAT forums very often in the early days. A little more human presence would go a long way. 'Nuff said. Let's make music!

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Thu May 30, 2002 3:09 am

On 2002-05-30 03:53, krizrox wrote:

I would like to take this one step further: I believe it is possible to install these products in a simple desktop PC but where it all falls apart is in the choice of peripheral hardware (graphics cards, mobo's, etc.). Creamware, to my knowledge, has never, ever come out saying that such & such is the preferred configuration for their products. Whay not? Clearly, they must be designing and testing their products on something. What is it?

Get your facts straight.
From the CW site a list of recommended systems:

http://www2.creamware.de/domino/webdbs/ ... enDocument

I've run my CW cards on a multi-purpose desktop system for a few years now without any problems. Even using internet, games, photoshop etc on thew same machine.
But I DID take out my soundblaster and Network card.

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Thu May 30, 2002 3:23 am

Apparently, the link isn't working but I'll take your word on it. As soon as I can view the page, I will indeed review it closely.

By the way: I will gladly eat my words and I welcome other viewpoints!

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