Connect XITE to a 2BUS device

[Ricardo]

Hi All,
Anyone know how or IF one can connect the XITE to a 2BUS summing device such as the Dangeroous 2BUS which has x2 DA-88 connections?

[Bud Weiser]

Hi All,
Anyone know how or IF one can connect the XITE to a 2BUS summing device such as the Dangeroous 2BUS which has x2 DA-88 connections?

Tascam DA-88 ?

Digital connection would be TDIF IIRC.
RME ADI-8 Pro converter offers ADAT and TDIF I/O connectors p.ex..

Analog:
Tascam norm is D-Sub25 connector, 8 balanced analog lines on 1 cable.
You´d need one w/ the D-Sub25 on one end of the cable and XLR breakouts on the other end of the cable and plug 2 of these into XITE-1 main analog L & R outs.
Pinout of Tascam norm cable is in the web to make one w/ only 2 balanced lines for XITE-1,- or you buy a stock cable and use only 2 of the lines.

At least, I wonder why you need a summing box for XITE-1 though ...

Bud

[ehasting]

If you want to connect all 16 output on Xite to 16 input on the summing box, you would need to get an interface that speaks z-link or adat.

http://www.ferrofish.de/index.php/en/pr ... a16mkii-en
This one will give you 16 output from your xite (and 16 input to your xite) using adat, which you can summon into the dangerous box.

You need to have cables as mentioned by Bud, but its standard multicables anyway ( 2x of this as a random example http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DTP803 )

[Ricardo]

thanx for the replies.
It's just something I'm investigating. My local store has the dangerous 2BUS lt. I've read several posts regarding multiple channels losing fidelity through a soft 2BUS, particularly Protools users, and thought I might try it out with Scope/XITE.
@Ehastings: Thanks for showing me the link to the cables. I only have the old 16bit A16 however, so until I can get hold of a 24bit AD/DA converter it probably won't be worth doing, unless I can run 24bit through it without loss of sound quality.
I've played with outboard compression with previously mixed songs (stereo only), with an EQ insert, with great results. So, naturally, being able to get such nice mixes from up to 16 tracks made me curious as how the XITE would compare ITB to OTB.
If I ever do it I'll post the results.

[ehasting]

Hello the A16 is 24/96 as fare as i know.
However the new box have probably improved fidelity.

I guess having outboard eq's and compressor will have greater impact on the mix sound then the summing box, unless you can overdrive the summing box somehow. Scope is already very good.

[garyb]

the Dangerous 2bus is an attempt to make bad sounding in the box mixes into good sounding mixes by combining the sounds outside the box. this is evidence of how bad a native mix sounds compared to ones done in hardware. native mixes sound pretty darned good compared to themselves when they're made by competent engineers, but still pretty terrible compared to something mixed in hardware, even digital hardware.

actually, a native mix COULD sound pretty much the same as the hardware mix, but then you wouldn't be able to run all those plugins and still have anything like a realtime experience. the problem is algorythms. "summing" in audio is not simply adding two waveforms together. there's that, but there are also other things that happen when sounds are mixed together in the real world. "summing" done natively must be simplified so that you can use the vstis and vsts with minimal latency.

the cpu is very powerful, but it's not dedicated to any one job. it has many things to do, a lot of numbers to crunch for many different apps with many different threads. Scope's processors are dedicated to their job and can use a deeper algorythm to combine sounds in a way that more resembles what we like in the real world. i don't think you need the 2bus. i have a real mixer. it was about $20,000 in 1985, i assure you it's better than the 2bus. it's a little better than the Scope mixer maybe, but i use the Scope mixer for the other benefits. the difference in sound isn't worth it for me, since my overall mixes are better because of my ability to save fader positions, and utilize all my options inside and outside the computer, and the fact that Scope can function as the hub to connect all the hard and software. i have a couple of A16 mk2s, so i CAN sum on the Soundcraft, it's just not a big deal. spend your money elsewhere, get some better speakers or fix the room or buy a micpre. jmho.

[Bud Weiser]

Scope's processors are dedicated to their job and can use a deeper algorythm to combine sounds in a way that more resembles what we like in the real world. i don't think you need the 2bus. i have a real mixer. it was about $20,000 in 1985, i assure you it's better than the 2bus.

I agree on he doesn´t need the 2bus !

I also own 2 8bus mixers which were in the price range of DM 10.000.- in the mid 80s,- one is in use, the other in the closet as a spare.
Meanwhile, it became a big volume control because it drives a Bryston 3B Pro always fully cranked up, it driving the Tannoy speakers.

In fact, I wanna get rid of the 8buss mixers and now wonder, because you mention the SCOPE algos above,- if I´d need a passive stereo-volume controller between XITE-1´s analog main outs and the power amp OR if I´d would be fine using SCOPE mixer´s master faders to control the overall volume of my monitor system, even it´s digital.

What´s your opinion Gary ?
Is the master fader/volume algo of SCOPE significantly better than these in native DAW apps mixers ?
My understanding is, lowering volume digitally results in loss of bit-depth which is a significant issue of every native DAW application.
What´s up w/ SCOPE ?

Do you use a passive monitor controller device or is that obsolete when using XITE-1 ?

If you use one of these,- which ?

There are a lot of options and most seem to be crap.
I see the expensive SPLs though,- which might be great but have a price because of all the additional features.

In fact, I´d would be fine w/ a big volume knob (but excellent accurate pot !), no signal degradation and connections for 2 pairs of speakers/amps, which in real world would be 2 balanced ins and 4 balanced outs w/ a pot in between.
All the other bells and whistles, like mono/stereo / talkback/ dim/ several phones outputs etc., aren´t important for me because I own a dedicated 4 channel phones amp (old trusty Tascam 2HU unit) and can do everything else in the SCOPE mixer anyway.

Bud

[Ricardo]

Thanks guys,
@Ehastings: it's the very first A16 version. I doubt that it's 24/96. If it is I'll be a very happy man! May be Gary knows.
@Gary: Great to hear from someone who has experience of this. Sounds like the outboard gear does sound better, but do I really need it? Right now, no. Is it better to sum from the DAW into Scope, or mix down in scope and sum down to a stereo DAW track? If the latter, which plugin(s) are best in Scope? I've summed from Samplitude and it sounds pretty darn nice. And as I said I've summed out of box from XITE through a compressor and returned the signal to my DAW to record, which to me sounds great too, a little better than from the Sam stereo bus. Somehow the harmonics etc sit better. I've also recently acquired a couple of nice preamps and mics and this has definitely contributed as well.
To wrap up, what is a really nice summing comp for Scope, and is the A16 24/96? Can't be if it says 44.1 or 48 on the front.
Now to sound treat the room which is my next venture......

Thanks again.

Bud, I just saw your post. Good reading for me.

[Immanuel]

Hello the A16 is 24/96 as fare as i know.
However the new box have probably improved fidelity.

I guess having outboard eq's and compressor will have greater impact on the mix sound then the summing box, unless you can overdrive the summing box somehow. Scope is already very good.

The A16 family exists in 3½ versions with 6 different looks.

There is the Creamware A16. This one is 18 bit 48 kHz.
(there is an A8 too. Same features and specs, but half the channels)

Then there is the Creamware A16U (Ultra). This one is 24 bit 96 kHz. It comes in 4 looks and they are the only ones with Z-link.
The same design was released under the Sonic Core name.
And a (very) few exists in white too.
And there is a Sonic Core version with XLR connectors. This was the only 2U version. The actual design was the same, though.

Then there is the the current Ferrofish A16 mkII. This one is 24 bit 96 kHz. It has MADI in place of Z-link.

[t_tangent]

Do you use a passive monitor controller device or is that obsolete when using XITE-1 ?

If you use one of these,- which ?

There are a lot of options and most seem to be crap.
I see the expensive SPLs though,- which might be great but have a price because of all the additional features.

In fact, I´d would be fine w/ a big volume knob (but excellent accurate pot !), no signal degradation and connections for 2 pairs of speakers/amps, which in real world would be 2 balanced ins and 4 balanced outs w/ a pot in between.
All the other bells and whistles, like mono/stereo / talkback/ dim/ several phones outputs etc., aren´t important for me because I own a dedicated 4 channel phones amp (old trusty Tascam 2HU unit) and can do everything else in the SCOPE mixer anyway.

Bud

Hi Bud,

I use a Goldpoint SA1X

http://www.goldpt.com/sa1x.html

or for your needs maybe the SA2X-O would be more suitable since it has 1 x balanced stereo input and 2 x balanced stereo outputs.

http://www.goldpt.com/sa2x.html

My original reason for getting an attenuator knob was that I used to sometimes accidentally forget to turn down the main output from the Scope project to my monitors, (for example when opening an older project that had not been saved properly with the mixer output fader saved at a low enough level), and a few years ago I actually blew a woofer on one of my old PMC TB2 monitors. So I wanted a simple volume knob, as you mention, that I could just have sitting next to me between Scope output and monitor input.

Before I ever heard of Goldpoint, I originally bought an SM Pro Audio M-Patch 2 from Thomann.de, but I returned it immediately as it introduced noise and worse still had terrible stereo shifting when changing volume using its knob. Then after more serious research on what to get, a number of people from several forums recommended the Goldpoint SA1X. I havent tried the SPL ones though as I too didnt need the extra features, just a simple volume knob that did the job beautifully. The SA1X does that perfectly and I thoroughly recommend it. I also use it when monitoring from the XITE-1 output.

Check their website and also read up on the attenuator specs.

http://www.goldpt.com/info.html

And here

http://www.goldpt.com/r_series.html

Note the min position on knob, i.e. 1, turns the output to off

One thing to note is the choice of Stepped Attenuator Values. I seem to recall mine has the 20k stepped values, which again I seem to remember off the top of my head are the most suitable for my monitors, K&H 0300D. The Goldpoint products are not cheap considering they are just a volume knob but they are available sometimes on the second hand market, or you can also just buy the attenuator pot and build your own casing if you have the time and know how.

[Bud Weiser]

Hi Bud,

I use a Goldpoint SA1X

http://www.goldpt.com/sa1x.html

or for your needs maybe the SA2X-O would be more suitable since it has 1 x balanced stereo input and 2 x balanced stereo outputs.

http://www.goldpt.com/sa2x.html

Thx for that, t-tangent !

The SA2X-O seems to be the one for me.
Not cheap though, but already from the pics, description and specs it seems to be highest quality.
This box looks so good, inside and outside, I´d like to avoid a DIY job.
Now it depends on if they ship to germany and what it costs when it arrives,- shipping, customs and VAT included.

Bud

[garyb]

@Bud Weiser

yes, i would want a hardware volume control. i use my big console for that. it has a control room section that is my volume control for the pc. it also has a tt patchbay that links my hardware with the A16. most of the time, this huge 24 bus mixer is just a table, but since it has top quality mic pres, i use it just for the mic pres when i need a lot of inputs. a BigKnob or even just a passive box with a regular potentiometer can handle the monitoring chore. it's just something to grap in an emergency...

@Ricardo

when i speak of "summing", i'm talking about combining signals. one system is as good as another until things get complicated. if it's only a couple of tracks with minimal processing, i might just use the sequencer, but when it's 15-40 tracks in a pop mix, i use Scope for all the mixing duties. this does everything the Dangerous 2Bus would do for the sound and then some.

[Ricardo]

Gary thanks for that extra clarification. I had a suspicion that XITE would do a great job without the external hardware. (But I'm always curious)
Funny that the volume issue came up as this has also been on my 'things to look at' list. My monitors are active. For now I'm just muting the main outs, but it's a pain to have to remember to mute/un mute all the time. It would be good to have a nice precision volume control (and a panic button...) and keep my main faders at unity. Again though, cash is an issue.

[Bud Weiser]

Funny that the volume issue came up as this has also been on my 'things to look at' list... Again though, cash is an issue.

Well, the real issue is, once you have XITE-1, it´s forbidden to add a crappy volume control to it´s analog outs because anything cheap an hissy ruins the sound and precision of XITE in your monitor speakers.

When I looked at the SM Pro Audio monitor controllers I already had the impression it´s crap and t-tangent confirmed.
Even w/ the Mackie Big Knob you have to have luck because not every unit is well built and some report there´s coloration too (which might be rumour or not).
Even if not, I´d prefer XLR connectors over TRS.

I´ll have to make a decision between SPL 2Control or the Goldpoint SA2X-O.
The SPL might be a bit cheaper here, coming w/ more features,- but it´s volume pot is continuous and the Goldpoint is stepped resistors.
Best would be to have both here and compare before buy and I´m looking for a way to realize that.

My console is long in the teeth now and cost much space in my workroom as a desk and monitor controller only.
It´s also not a old Soundcraft and I cannot record bands here, so no need for many mic pres and the 2 XITE Mic/DI are better anyway.

Bud

[Immanuel]

You could also add a channel plug-in before the outputs. Then you can use that as your monitor fader, if you prefer to have your mixer fader at unity. -12 dB on the input (because that is the amount you can boost). Assign the fader to a hardware controller. There you have a high precision thing.

You would loose bits, and that might be an issue with your old A16. But then you might consider, if you want to spend the money on a volume control or on a new 2 channel DA converter.

The bit reduction degradation will likely be less than the quality increase from a good converter. And the converter will not disappear if you later decide to go for an analog fader.

[garyb]

just make your own box with a high quality pot. it's just some jacks and a pot....

[Ricardo]

I´ll have to make a decision between SPL 2Control or the Goldpoint SA2X-O.
The SPL might be a bit cheaper here, coming w/ more features,- but it´s volume pot is continuous and the Goldpoint is stepped resistors.
Best would be to have both here and compare before buy and I´m looking for a way to realize that.

Bud

I'm not very up on these things: Is stepped preferable to continuous? how so?

[garyb]

the continuous would be controlling a vca. the stepped is a high quality analog device. the stepped is less likely to color the sound.

[jhulk]

get a dual stepped lorlins switch pot

as used in many mastering equipment

work out the attenuation you require for full resistive range divide that by the number of turns your switch has and you

fit the resistors for the division in parallel

the switches are £30-80 depending on how many switch contacts there are on the lorlins you can set them

a small box some xlr's for the ins and outs

all for the parts cost of £100

and a bit of your time

take about 8 hours for a nice finished product and save your self a lot of money

and the good thing is you choose the quality of parts no cutting corners like manufacturers do

if you want to go a step further then you could add input and output iron with with impedance matching trafo

sowter 600/600 impedance input output trafo's are £60

and they are made to order

brian sowter is great has helped out a lot on customers projects over the years

and its the classic iron from british eq

[hubird]

aha, thanks for that.
I just wanted to ask how it works with discontinuous pots, as I know nothing

quote: work out the attenuation you require for full resistive range divide that by the number of turns your switch has and you fit the resistors for the division in parallel

eh...I see what you mean, but I'd offer you 200 pound to make it for me - if I needed one
I have an old Mackie 12/2 micromixer, just pots, and the master pot is my red knob.
Some pots could use revision tho.

Nice tip, Immanuel, of using a channel plug-in controlled by a hardware controller...
Easy job for my Peavy PC1600 fader controller.
Never used the midi controller possibilities in Scope except with synths, but this one is asking for it