No more connections from DSP....

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Bud Weiser
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by Bud Weiser »

timstoel wrote:@Bud
Thanks for your reply. I am mixing in Scope, so I am sending audio down ASIO and using the Scope mixer to mix with. I use MIDI automation in my DAW to control the mixer. I much prefer the insert effects in Scope over the ones in Cubase.

Channels 1-24 on the 4896 are my ADAT and XLR inputs from the outside world, and 25-48 are the outputs from my DAW. I use 6 of those channels as Auxes in my DAW, then those channels are default routed to the corresponding aux, so I have auxes in my DAW labelled "MasterVerb" "RMX-160" and so on. Some mixing also happens out of the box in a summing mixer, so it is a requirement for me to route all of this audio through Scope.
In short,- I understand what you do or try to do.
I use XITE and SCOPE different, last but not least being a keyboard player, arranger, composer.
Basicly,- the DAW is my "tape recorder" (and MIDI sequencer), the DAW mixer is my submixer, XITE-1 is the main mixer AND summing box and I use SCOPE for the AUX FX.

Like you, I also use a ton of outboard hardware,- synths, romplers, drum machine, samplers,- but there are also some dynamics and FX.
I kept a Yammy REV7 and D1500 Delay, Digitech Studio 400, Dynacord Delay, DBX compressors, Valley People Gatex and some more,- most connected to a patchbay or in prewired fixed configuration in different racks.
I use these striktly for the hardware keys and modules or when recording guitars and bass.
I don´t record real drums because I have a 1-room studio environment specialized on keyboard work,- so not many mics and I don´t need a s**tload of separate channels running from outside world to XITE for simultaneously recording.
I use sub- mixers for my keys and modules, nothing I had to buy because I buyed XITE,- all was there before I buyed XITE.

Now think of XITE as a piece of 1HU hardware like any other piece of hardware you have in your existing studio environment and not as a piece of gear you buy for 4.000.- bucks,- then replacing all of the other gear you already own so it can go into the sales completely.

Which summing box do you own, what is it really doing and how much did you pay for it alone ?
If you buyed a 16 channel NEVE offering parallel stereo outs, 1 of these transformer balanced, the inputs offering inserts, PAN and cue,- that alone nearly as expensive as a XITE.

Or,- think about buying a UAD Apollo ...
You get a multi I/O audio interface in a 1HU unit, 4 new SHARCs inside, connection is Firewire (not PCIe), Thunderbold optional only for about EUR 500.- here and it does nothing more than offering FX plugins and I/Os.
It costs EUR 5.500.- all plugins and Thunderbold option included.

Do you own a host computer offering Thunderbold ?
If not,- that will be the next investment.

In my age of 58 now next weekend, I come from the analog recording times and worked as a pro keyboardist in studios as also live for more than 3 decades and I learned dealing w/ limited ressources and working w/ gear "not working as advertised".
How many digital controlled analog synth´s or digital synth´s firmware/OS burned in eproms worked "as advertised" ?
Not many !

Since we work in the digital domain,- have you ever seen anything hassle free ?
Me not !
Even in the analog domain there was rarely hassle free work, the issues just only were different ones.

What you really want is,- running a DAW on a computer and connect XITE-1 to replace a complete studio environment others need several acoustically optimized rooms for, a large console, summing box, racks full of outboard gear, some real synths and other keys and invested over a million bucks.

That doesn´t work,- not when you go the Mac route w/ Logic and Protools natively and/or TDM as also not w/ UAD and/or any other computer only solution out there.
We all wish it would, but it doesn´t.

When you buy the largest UAD, the Apollo,- what you get is a FX box and a digital I/O matrix using ASIO or Core Audio,- not more and no less,- and it´s more expensive than XITE-1.

You can use XITE and SCOPE as a mixer and/or summing box or as a modular synth or running some of the other synths offered or as a FX box only or a combination of all,- but in every case you might come to the point running out of ressources and that will happen w/ any other piece of digital DSP gear too.

B.t.w, with no word you talked about your computer system you use to run SCOPE/XITE up to now.
Using the highest quality FX in SCOPE 5.1 means using the host computer´s CPU and RAM in addition too.
You might also have some other bottlenecks in your system.

Bud
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by Liquid EDGE »

That's a great explanation bud.
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garyb
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by garyb »

to use v5.1 in win8, you only need to disable driver authentication while installing. the Scope driver isn't signed. it's very easy, let me know if you need instructions.

the XITE is REAL gear. while it's great that hobbyists and laypeople use it, it's really complicated and requires basic engineering chops, or someone willing to learn them. the reward is tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars of gear for the price on one nice piece. it's not perfect, but i defy you to find a better value in HARDWARE. music is not about computers. they are a tool and they aren't even an ultimate tool. computers are merely a way to do work a little cheaper than one could without them. otherwise, a computer is a piece of crap, or that's my opinion...
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by dante »

timstoel wrote:And I am only able to add a few reverbs? My fingers don't hurt yet, and I want more reverb! :P
Tim
Mine will run several masterverbs, I havent mixed them up with the others too much, I will do some tests tonight.

If I can run a few on the 'D', then could be the issue is with your host system (PC).

The fact you're maxxing out at 25% DSP also suggests a host issue to me.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by Bud Weiser »

garyb wrote:otherwise, a computer is a piece of crap, or that's my opinion...
+10

There is no piece of gear out there which drove me nuts more than any computer (and music software).
For me, that rules since the Commodore 64 and the 1st Steini and C-Lab sequencers arrived.

It needed not much time until I was not only the keyboardplayer anymore while the sound engineer and studio owner had the hassle,- no,- slowly I became everything in one person, had to work for less money and now had all the hassle alone in addition.
Not enough,- bandmembers hated me because I now played their instruments,- w/ MIDI and modules, later w/ plugins,- and made their money.

:D

Bud
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by hubird »

garyb wrote: music is not about computers. they are a tool and they aren't even an ultimate tool. computers are merely a way to do work a little cheaper than one could without them. otherwise, a computer is a piece of crap, or that's my opinion...
I get what you mean, a computer is a tool.
But crap? it depends.

I just migrated to my new mac Pro 8core desktop.
I Imported the saved file of the old adresbook, copied the old folder with all mailfolders with all my mails in the Library folder of my personal account on the new mac, and hopla there was it all already in my mac's Mail program, copied all files from my old Pata disks to the new Sata disk through Firewire connection between old and new mac (T key mode on the old mac shows the old disks on the desktop of the new one to make direct copies.), got internet via router almost instantly (just had to input my mail accounts)...

Installed two UAD cards and a RME Raydat card (the latter to get all streams back and forth in the S/C cards in the old Quicksilver mac), installed Cubase which showed immediately all effects of the UAD and the I/O's of the Raydat...

All this without a single glitch, which is quite fine if you consider that the old mac was based on a Motorola processor, with the new mac being on Intel.
No Bios needing finetuning, no registry, nothing.
It all just worked as it's supposed to do.
Not one single problem, nothing to check, nothing to finetune, nada.

Good crap, isn't it? :D

sorry for OT...
Last edited by hubird on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by Bud Weiser »

dante wrote:
The fact you're maxxing out at 25% DSP also suggests a host issue to me.
Well, isn´t it it could happen running out of SAT connections w/ only 25% DSP load because he has so many connections running ?

When I read the 1st post, I really wondered why he needs all the input-connections from "outside world", p.ex. hardware and ADAT I/Os for his hardware synths and such,- when MIXING.

I´d simply would try to preconfigurate a clever assortment of projects related to recording keys played by hand and/or MIDI only / recording musicians w/ mics and DIs / recording vocals.
Only recording a band w/ real drums requires lots of inputs as well as ASIO running TO the DAW, but you don´t need many single ASIO streams form DAW to SCOPE just to do the monitoring as also not many FX.

I´d also create different projects for bouncing/summing, mixing and mastering.

When mixing, I´d group already recorded tracks to folder tracks in the DAW, then send ASIO streams from these folder tracks to SCOPE and take only separate which isn´t ideal for grouping (bouncing).
Lead vocals, doubling and rave tracks I´d take separate, but not all the backing vocal (choir) tracks.
I´d take all the "heavy guitar" overdubs playing the same stuff on different tracks and group in a folder/stereo track, single tracks in folder pre-Eqed and pre-panned, eventually including tracks w/ chord inversions and the low octaves/root stuff too,- the "wall of guitars" thingy you know,- just only to save ASIO connections.
I´d use clean single note guitar and lead stuff separate only.
Several keys/synths which create a pad sound by layering,- on 1 stereo track.
If the pad sounds change within the song and there´s silence between parts of the song,- on the same track and automate the track.
Piano/e-piano tracks separate, keyboard solo (if that happens at all) too.
String- and brass sections,- pre-mixed stereo tracks in the mix, solo instruments separate.
Percussion, pre-mixed to stereo track too.

I doubt most pieces of music will contain all these instruments together and the extreme would be an orchestra plus band, choir and lead singer,- but how rare is that ?
Since we have these DAWs and computers fast enough, there exist these 100+ tracks projects w/ every bit and snippet on a separate track even it plays only 1 time in the song,- insane.

When we had consoles w/ limited count of channels and busses and 1 or 2 24-track reel-to-reel machines, we were able to produce great music and sound,- thinking economic.
But also later, recording on a 250.000.- DM Waveframe needed economy.
Some guys I worked for had the smaller 100.000.- DM version w/ only 8 tracks and it replaced a 24-track reel-to-rell w/ ease working economic.

Economy of recording/mixing is important,- and creative,- and saves ressources.

Why throwing in Minimax when mixing and the project is already cluttered w/ devices and connections for mixing ?
Mixing is when every track is recorded already and printed on harddrive.

I have the impression he tried or tries to set up the "one and only" project for everything because it would be just too good when that dream becomes true.

Bud
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garyb
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by garyb »

that's right. just because it's a computer doesn't mean that all resources should be unlimited, or it's useless or unsatisfactory. try doing what a studio equipped with an XITE can do 20 years ago. it would have cost millions. now it's a 5-10 thousand dollars, including a little bit of room treatment and a super mic pre and a super mic.

a do-everything project will always fail. projects need to have what's needed for a specific task, to use resources efficiently. patching takes a moment. in 10 minutes, the most complex routing can be completed. in the real world, it can take an hour or more.
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by niceboy »

Tim[/quote]
We have three Scope setups .
1 Xite
2 45 dsp PCI
3 3 dsp PCI recording with Vdat setup.
( other computer )
In our Xite setup we amplify the Master Verb Pro,
the way its needed to be done , in order to have enough reverb.
Thats maybe not the way most people think it schould be done,
but we dont follow simplified solutions.
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by Liquid EDGE »

Every one is different and I reckon bud is right. You need projects more geared towards each task.

For me I make electronic music.
I have cubase routed into scopes 2448 mixer with 24 (16stereo) asio inputs from the outputs of cubase. And have 4 (2 stereo) asio outputs to input into cubase for recording.

So on the 2448 I have the first 16 channels for stuff from cubase and have the other 16 channels for the scope synths and samplers being triggered via midi.

I can get 3 reverbs in the mixer aux sends before any problems, and for me 3 is enough. And this is along side atleast 4 scope synths, mattomat, piles of filters, chorus, eq, distortion, etc etc. and mastering devices on the master out.

So yeah. I think a person sees more power from scope when you use devices and tools from accross the board.

If I do run into dsp loads maxing out, first thing I will do is be, ok the mastering process can be done in a separate project once I have recorded the final stereo into vdat or something.
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by niceboy »

We do mastering out live here with Xite , so we dont just record it down.
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by guppy »

Bud Weiser wrote: I have the impression he tried or tries to set up the "one and only" project for everything because it would be just too good when that dream becomes true.

Bud
I am trying to use scope the best I can since 2 years with pci cards, starting from 0 as "sound engineer" and with some help and work, I understand more and more the philosophy, but that's really for people who have a complete understanding and a professional practice of sound.
I'm first a bass player (that you know are already mentally limited :) ), and I'd love to have an all-in-one project...
But i realize it's impossible by now.

A good example is my last problem I exposed here, about reverb: I had too many asio connections loaded for nothing, that caused odd behavior with pci limit when I closed Samplitude.
I unloaded unused asio channels that I wanted to use later, and the problem disappeared...
So if I want to use reverbs, I must handle asio with care.
Last edited by guppy on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by timstoel »

Thanks everyone for the ideas and responses. I have moved all of my reverbs out of the mixer and gotten to about 40% DSP load before running out of connections, but at least I am now running 6 MasterVerb Pros, 2 RMX-160s, and 4 OptiMasters, and making some impressive racket with it all chained up in series. :D

I am going to follow the advice of Bud and Gary, making more Scope/Cubase sessions for different tasks, I am sure that will help.

I wish I would have known about this aux send limitation before. Maybe the aux slot in the mixer needs a warning next to it!

Tim
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by garyb »

:) well, little by little you learn a new instrument.
i like to save custom projects that go with a particular song in that song's folder. that way i can quickly find it and there's no guessing.

by the way, 40% load equals four 15dsp pci cards, about $8-9000.00 worth. oh yeah, there's a three card limit...

as somene else suggested, watch sync(dsp resources used) and async(native resources used) numbers of the dsp meter as you load things. that'll help you understand what is happening.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by Bud Weiser »

garyb wrote: ... watch sync(dsp resources used) and async(native resources used) numbers of the dsp meter
Thx for that, I always wondered what the difference of "sync" and "async" really is,- but watching the numbers alone when loading something was/is great help and info because it shows dependencies of communication chips #3/#4 /#5/#6 and the 4 slots housing 4 new SHARCs each in a row.
My observation was, your run out of "async" earlier than out of "sync".

Is "async" related to ASIO connections and virtual wire connections in a project ?

Bud
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by wayne »

garyb wrote: i like to save custom projects that go with a particular song in that song's folder.
+1. Like a normal studio. Always done this, from the days when many of us here started with a 4DSP Pulsar card. Being dsp frugal was the big thing back then. Bouncing down a lot.. aargh :)
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garyb
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by garyb »

Bud Weiser wrote: Is "async" related to ASIO connections and virtual wire connections in a project ?

Bud

yes. and memory for reverbs and samplers and certain calculations for convolveq and...
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Bud Weiser
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by Bud Weiser »

garyb wrote:
Bud Weiser wrote: Is "async" related to ASIO connections and virtual wire connections in a project ?

Bud

yes. and memory for reverbs and samplers and certain calculations for convolveq and...
O.k., thx,- that means, also ALL connectivity SCOPE and DSP unit needs to use the host computer´s CPU in addition.

Does a faster host computer CPU improve "async" over a slower host computer CPU ?
Probably also size of processor cache and some mobo related specs,- like memory access via south bridge or not ?
Just asking because my actual mobo still has a south bridge but the next one, for Intel i7, won´t.

Bud
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garyb
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by garyb »

to answer the last question, maybe.

depending on the plugin, different async resources are used. many or most plugins use almost zero async resources(just for the gui), so many or most plugins won't be affected.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: No more connections from DSP....

Post by Bud Weiser »

garyb wrote:to answer the last question, maybe.

depending on the plugin, different async resources are used. many or most plugins use almost zero async resources(just for the gui), so many or most plugins won't be affected.
That helps understanding how SCOPE/XITE technically works.
I can imagine which plugins might be affected. :)

thank you

Bud
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