SCOPE 64 Bit beta..........?

[Bifop]

... they get all the chicks !



@ Gary, Yes if they have to rewrite the whole shebang then it's clearly a huge demanding task. But we agree that 64 bits has to arrive at some point (whenever it arrives) don't we ?. It will add some value to Xite and the cards. And probably new customers as well. It helps SC staying technologically up to date .

[siriusbliss]

... they get all the chicks !



@ Gary, Yes if they have to rewrite the whole shebang then it's clearly a huge demanding task. But we agree that 64 bits has to arrive at some point (whenever it arrives) don't we ?. It will add some value to Xite and the cards. And probably new customers as well. It helps SC staying technologically up to date .

I'll say it again...it's closer than you think.

SC is technologically up to date, and in many ways beyond up-to-date.

Many other developers are also just now (this year) getting 64-bit worked out (so that it functions as intended).

I think SC is just about on-track considering what they have to deal with.

Greg

[dawman]

S|C are God like creatures that have catered to those who have invested in thier cards.
Even if they were schmucks like me who bought a half a dozen of them from the Z or ebay.
Thats why when the XITE-1 came out I didn't hesitate. I actually pestered the shit out of them to take my money. That served 2 purposes.
1) I could asscertain if they were talking shit or not. By not accepting my cash up front that would be safe to assume they had no product.
2) I would be the first serial number of a historical peice of gear. A chance I was willing to take.
I was successful in my endeavors and the unit paid for itself last summer. everything I make now is gravy.
But yes 64bit is crucial; at some point, and I have nothing but faith in my brethren at S|C.
Sure, most Tortugas move quicker than them, but they never take a step backwards.
Meanwhile I can enjoy Modular and other parts of the app that are very deep and require a year just to come to grips with.
I can't wait to see those who swore off the company and come back asking for tips w/ their new 64bit installations. It should be festive..........

[johndunn]

again, lost in my rant is that it is NOT JUST THE DRIVER at stake. the WHOLE program must be rewritten for EVERY new os. that is the delay. a program that literally NO ONE else in the business can write, must be rewritten. it's a big job and for the most part it's for free. people should stop being so selfish, in general...

Well, no. It has to be completely recompiled for 64 bit, not completely rewritten. The big job would be debugging which, depending on how robust the original code is, can range from trivial to insane. But even on the insane side of the meter, not remotely the kind of job that a complete rewrite would entail.

What bothers me is not that it's taking a long time to get the 64 bit Scope out, it's that we have been told that it will be "next month" or "imminent" or "just around the corner" for what? 9 months? Last March or April we were practically guaranteed it would be available in May. Some of us who really needed to move on to 64 bit, actually believed this and made plans accordingly. Makes me feel like Linus, with Lucy and the football.

How hard would it be, every 2 weeks or so, to update us here on PlanetZ of the progress. Just an honest progress update, giving us an indication (roughly without any promises) of what the progress is, where the rough spots still are, etc. Maybe 15 minutes writing a 3-4 paragraph post. They know that virtually all Scope users follow PlanetZ, especially the Announcements.

[astroman]

sorry John, that's just ridiculous.
Sonic Core doesn't owe anything to anyone - they took care of the product because they like it and would regret to see it end in the virtual trashcan. That's all about it.
From an economic point of view it's bare nonsense what SC is performing.
Their main products are XITE and the Solaris hardware guts.
My 2nd RME card DOES NOT even work properly in XP, and RME is taking NO STEPS at all to support it.
Because they have a new line of cards out. Same anywhere else in industry.
SC is an anachronism for the sake of the product and that deserves respect imho.

Regarding the Scope application environment...
It's certainly not just a recompile, that's not stuff like some word processor something.
There is some very abstract processing going on under the hood, which may not be obvious in the first place.
You may check how long it took a multi billion company like M$ or Apple to switch their developement systems to full 64 bit... Scope is no less complex.
And btw .... regarding the big boys... I have half a dozen MacPros here, touted big for their 64bit apps and what was my first experience ?
The security dongles for machine access fail, producing just bs.
A simple device that just does some encryption on USB...

cheers, Tom

[garyb]

... they get all the chicks !



@ Gary, Yes if they have to rewrite the whole shebang then it's clearly a huge demanding task. But we agree that 64 bits has to arrive at some point (whenever it arrives) don't we ?. It will add some value to Xite and the cards. And probably new customers as well. It helps SC staying technologically up to date .

yes, 64bit is important and it's coming as soon as they can get it out.

[dawman]

I have Waittail Cocktresses that won't give me the time of day until I can recharge their iPads on my DAW and provide 64bit sex. It's suppose to be wider from what I hear.
But until the 64bit sex drivers are out I can use bridged strap ons for sex instead.
Similar to a VST wrapper I guess, but I wish to remian hip, so 64bit wrappers for me and I pray the re written 64bit sex drivers hurry up and arrive as I cannot operate much longer bluffing around with these 32bit strap ons. I actually lost one and had a hell of a time retrieving it during a break..

[astroman]

... It's not because SC have some great cards that you're not allowed to use something else.
While I like this forum's atmosphere and there are many great individuals here, I find the overall thinking a bit narrow minded and totally biased.

well, I'm one of those nay-sayers, but I wouldn't call myself conservative in technological terms at all.
In fact I almost see myself on the sharp side of the edge... trying to lead and define standards instead of following them.
I will use whatever technology is apropriate to achieve the goal, it just has to be effective.
That said I don't give a sh*t on anyone's 'judgement' or public bla bla à la mode.

There ARE a few applications that benefit from an extended adress space, but 90% of what this subject is about DON'T.
Not the slightest bit. Which is not some estimation, but a matter of fact.

I don't argue about flooding your system's memory with 3 instances of Omnisphere if you like it.
That's your cup of tea and you're free to do so.
But in a more general context huge libraries don't supply a 'better tone' by default, as it's often claimed.
And only a minority is cutting > 4GB chunks in Hollywood movie style.
It may be nice if you COULD do it, but it's far from everyday use of the performing or composing musician (as the typical Scope user is)

I'd buy a well tuned EMU lib anyday if I had use for that stuff.
One might consider it outdated (the samples may even have been quite overused), but that's because they were so well tuned. To my ears, this humble stuff sounds better than a lot of todays gigabyte collections.
In that sense I simply weigh cost and effectiveness - and see no gain by an extended adress space.
It does not 'sound' on it's own, and it will sound like sh*t if I fill it up with sh*t.
Which doesn't mean Omnisphere, but a lot of stuff that just pretends to be great because it's huge.

The 'huge-factor' is an appreciated sales argument... you receive much, so can you pay.
Some tiny EMU samples on the other hand have been setup with much more effort, but even if their 16MB Piano sounds 'better' than whatever Giga-thing, they will have a hard time to sell it.
Because the 'others' offer so much more... in quantity.

There's no need to agree with me, it's just that you see my point isn't the fanboy style argument.
I have 25 years of experience in IT and developement and I've seen countless tools come and go...
In fact I follow a rather 'conservative' strategy...
People don't pay me for the latest buzz, but for the most cost effective working environment.

(In the company) we're waiting on an iPad everyday because we consider it an 'application breakthrough' in a certain domain that touches our business - and just upgraded to the latest MacPro.
We could have done that 2 years ago (the macpro thing), but then the operators of the workstations didn't have enough expertise to fully use them, let alone Apple's OS or Adobe's software...

cheers, Tom

[lagoausente]

It's funny how most people here are so conservative towards technology and protective as far as SC is concerned.

What do you guys do on a technology forum if even asking and wondering about something as basic as a new driver starts all these "nowadays people are this or that" "what do you need this for?" etc... type of responses ?

Upgrading is great. I7 smokes my previous setup. I kept it for so long that I had forgotten the joy of a super responsive system with lots of overhead.
Omnisphere is a great synth (and a ram eater) and 64 bits would sure be great to have.

It's not because SC have some great cards that you're not allowed to use something else.
While I like this forum's atmosphere and there are many great individuals here, I find the overall thinking a bit narrow minded and totally biased.

Why don´t you start a company? Just design a Xite competitor with 100x of power, plus 64bit "drivers" and make worka all ok together with lot´s of devices, property and 3rdparty, and then sale alll that for 1000 eur, you´ll get al the market for you. As Nike says, Just do it, and will win lots of money...
Each market has it´s own buyers. Some sell shit, some sell smoke. S/C sells an special product, it´s hardware plus a lot of soft. It´s not that easy build "only soft" or build "only hard" than build all at one time, plus ins and outs, plus Zero latency.
Gari has reason, and you are the narrow minded. Xite is not just the same that one I7+atmosphere. If one company should need to develop the I7+atmosphere+all the other hardware in the pc+rewrite a lot of soft and plugs to 64bit, do you think could be done all that by a small company? No. So don´t ask the sky for you to have in your pocket. Nobody tells here that upgrade is not ok, what people is telling here is that what SC works ok, and is a lot from only one company. Even you get a PC, with lot´s of VST you´ll depend of diferent companies, doesn´t matter so much if one of them doesn´t upgrade, you´ll use the other. But STILL you´ll have the latency issue.
You can go for UAD or Powercore, but you STILL have no in/outs, mixers, synths, samplers, etc etc etc. Conclusion is that SC makes in one company, something that you cannot get in a lot of companies together in your PC. You still can´t get a sampler, a synth or a mixer with Zero latency unless you spends some lots of $$$$$$$$$$$ in hardware mixers, sampers, synths, etc etc etc. and STILL will be no integrated in your pc with your sequence, so in other words, the reason that people here defend to wait, is that Scope platforms is still unique. The only one that exists with this specs.

[menno]

again, lost in my rant is that it is NOT JUST THE DRIVER at stake. the WHOLE program must be rewritten for EVERY new os. that is the delay. a program that literally NO ONE else in the business can write, must be rewritten. it's a big job and for the most part it's for free. people should stop being so selfish, in general...

Come on Gary. You talk about people having to be mature and grown up, so I find it quite rude and childish to label anyone who dares to give some constructive criticism of Sonic Core as selfish, etc...

The fact that this thread exists shows Sonic Core could be better at setting user expectations.

I agree with JohnDunn, I think SC could just have told us in January, sorry guys due to reasons xyz we think the 64 bit driver will take x months longer. And they could have revised their estimate as time went by and they got more clarity.

Astroman, SC dont owe us anything, but setting user expectations leads to happy users, so it's in everyone's interest.

[katano]

Just to throw some more oil into the fire:

I've got myself the Adobe CS5 Production Premium for my movie and music video projects. There you go: Premiere Pro and After Effects are not working on 32bit anymore! And as it is, I'd like to cut video on the same pc together with Scope and Xite, which leaves me with the obvious dilemma...

I know, most of you would say: "Buy a second pc and connect Scope with ADAT". But I do not have the space and the money, so... waiting for the good

Cheers
Roman

[Bifop]

Yep Katano, cs5 on two windows 64 bits machines here at the lab. The 3d guys made me a demo a few days ago. After effects cs5 smokes ! But yes, 64 bits only.
I have the second machine running with two SC cards connected to the main Daw via adat. It is indeed a great solution... Problem is the main daw has a SC card as well !!! So it doesn't help me much for now.

I'm hoping for the OSX drivers as well. But I can wait a few more months (well, till september). If no signs of drivers then, I'll be getting the Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56 (64 bits drivers for windows and osx already) for the main (OSX, Windows 7) machine.

Funnily, my post was more about the fact that we can't discuss 64 bits drivers without having the thread derailing to bitter remarks and how the whole world might collapse due to our selfishness or inability to understand how to program dsp chips etc....

Seeing the answers just made me smile.

I'm all for the wait till it's cooked, but don't tell me to sit at the table if dinner is not even in the oven !!

[astroman]

well, what would you like to discuss about a driver ? there isn't much interesting imho
btw the 'driver' is 150 KB of object code opposed to 5MB for the rest of the Scope core system, so... a humble 3%.
That's what Gary's comment is about (the repeating 'driver' request).

the Scope system is most likely compiled from various tools, some of which may never had any provisions for such an extended adress space (which is completely irrelevant to audio processing).
That the operating system is enforcing 64bit as a global strategy IS marketing.

Even video processing at the workstation level DOES NOT require 64bit by default.
Apple has shown this 20 years ago that memory management doesn't have to be the pita of the Intel/M$ way.
If the files system was 'smarter' it could well handle any chunk of data - just as Creamware's original TripleDat did 80bit audio processing in some domains.
I do not appreciate to bow before the marketing power of Apple, Adobe and M$.
That people do is a matter of fact, too... but that's a philosophical question for a different topic (if at all).

Imho one cannot reliably predict the time schedule of the project SC has to handle.
3MB of object code for Scope's non graphic core system is about half a million lines of code at least.
The system deals with several completely different aspects, so it's not even homogenous.
To miss the schedule for months or even years wouldn't be surprising.
At least everyone should know that even M$ has had 'performances' in exactly that way - a company that literally swims on money...
The problem with SC's stuff is that it is highly specific and you can't just hire some folks who finished university to increase your 'headcount'. These have to be experienced programmers.
Afaik they got some members of the former developement team back... without those it might even be a hopeles enterprise to try to change any of that stuff.

Everyone knows that SC would like to have this out asap, to take advantage of the marketing nonsense themselves...
I see my comments as explanations, not as a defense (I'm in no way associated with SC) and I fail to see any bitterness associated with those comments.
64 bit Scope WILL come, but as long as it's not released, there are more important things than to worry about a schedule noone can predict.

Seen enough software sh*t in life to know
I had a similiar decision some years ago... to rewrite due to changes in the network environment.
My solution was to trash everything and start with a brandnew system, as that was faster to handle and the new system was more powerful anyway.
SC doesn't have such an option if they want to continue their support for the existing PCI system.
These complex systems bear tons of caveats that may surprise you any point in time.

cheers, Tom

[grappa]

Threads like this do sadden me a little.. I am sure that whilst some might argue that it would be nice for Soniccore to update us sometimes (in order to better manage expectations) the fact that I am still using the cards I purchased some eight years ago with a new set of drivers (albeit 32 bit) and a new management application is simply unbelievable given the usual comercial drive to just shift more kit and sod what went before irrespective of prior customer investment.

Not only can I seek solice that S|C haven't let me down on a single promise they have made but I still have a system that is untouchable in terms of what it can deliver.

I bought my first Scope card by mistake - I stand by the fact it is still the best mistake I have ever made!

I discover something new every day I use it and I'm just getting into Modular in a serious way - the fun just never stops and I never cease to be amazed at the flexibility...the more I use it the more I realise that when I signed up to this architecture I signed up for life.

To my brothers around the globe - sometimes you forget how lucky you are...

Si

[Warp69]

And Im looking forward to the day where SC announce that the Pulsar, Pulsar2, Scope and Scope2 are legacy products and will therefor not receive any new updates. Any company in the world has to earn money to survive, innovate and create. And let us be honest - there're EXTREMELY few on this forum that are prepared to invest any more money on their Scope environment.

SC - Please let the old platform die and let us concentrate on the new XITE platform. Make 64bit for XITE only and if you have time in the next 3-5 years then maybe release that for the current PCI cards.

[Bifop]

Grappa : Yeah I know we're lucky. Good tools, a passion in life, being able to live from that etc... I'm delighted.
Yes SC rocks in regards to still be working on a 10+ year platform.
Even the reactions of impatience show the love people have for this very platform. We're all hanging around this place for a very good reson no ?

Astroman, you're ability with the discusive method is astounding. Sincerely.
Whatever I think, at one point, reading your comments always make me doubting that I was thinking it at the first place... !
You must rock on chess.

Ok to resume : (Music : Michael Jackson's "You are not alone")
Dear SonicCore, we users, know you're struggling to meet your promise of 64bits drivers.
We greatly appreciate what you've done so far for us.
We would greatly appreciate if you could once in a while update the project status.
(raising arms)
More than not having, is the blind wait.
More than not having, is the blind wait.

[astroman]

Astroman, you're ability with the discusive method is astounding. Sincerely.
Whatever I think, at one point, reading your comments always make me doubting that I was thinking it at the first place... !
You must rock on chess.

to be honest... chess is really boring
as a beginner you think about strategy and make plans - as a master you're nothing but a fast pattern processor
but I'm happy the text is readable and invites to thinking, that's what it's supposed be... nothing more.
I just can't stand todays buzzword chase, though I have to admit I live pretty well from it (or the dependency people put themselves in by following)

It's probably rather strange to read someone's reports about a system that not only did it's job flawlessly (and I really mean flawless), but was installed in less than 10 minutes.
Btw M$ once had a similiar problem with corporate installations of WinNT-4 Server.
Some customers had thousands of machines running on that system, but M$ wanted to get on with the XP path.
But even M$ couldn't afford such an offense...
So they spent some 160 Million on a company called Connectix to aquire the Virtual PC product.
M$'s official solution was to install XP and let it host a virtual NT Server.

Virtual PC was 'the better Windows' from day one on.
You could (originally) host it on any sh*t making it an extremely convient tool.
For example one could save a running Windows anytime and it was a very fast and compact application.
Someone crashed it's installation. Copy the image, reload the vm, bingo...
You could even define a 'basic' Windows state, work and it auto-rolled back to the startpoint.
Ok, some problems with protection schemes and licenses come to mind, tho...

Of course the first thing M$ did was cripple it, so you only could host it under XP.
Didn't take long and they sacked it completely - that's the way they do it

cheers, Tom

[Fluxpod]

And Im looking forward to the day where SC announce that the Pulsar, Pulsar2, Scope and Scope2 are legacy products and will therefor not receive any new updates. Any company in the world has to earn money to survive, innovate and create. And let us be honest - there're EXTREMELY few on this forum that are prepared to invest any more money on their Scope environment.

SC - Please let the old platform die and let us concentrate on the new XITE platform. Make 64bit for XITE only and if you have time in the next 3-5 years then maybe release that for the current PCI cards.

I agree if they fix all bugs for the pci version.Not 98% of the bugs..i mean 100%!And make plugs compatibel to a certain degree.

[dawman]

XITE-1 Jr. to the rescue w/ MADI, AES/EBU and no mic pre's.
I do love the quality of the mic pre's for live work. Jurgen did a fine job with those, but most here will want to record and probably already have better spec'd mic pre's.
I agree w/ Martin. SInce Frank Hund has access to anything Scope, he can keep the old Scope alive with Pluugiator 2, 3, 4, and 5. They're actually a decent little box.
XITE Jr's and XITE PaPa's are the future.
The sound quality is obvious w/o any testing too.
No offense, but I A/B'd the cards which I always thought sounded fine, but next to the XITE-1 they seem to have a slight vail of muffledness.
XITE-1 has a sharp clarity like the RME cards. My sampled content was the only test I could judge by, since synths are more difficult.
And naturally 64bit for those of us in the Peanut Gallery.
What I find most impressive about the XITE-1 is how I have basically replaced an entire stage of hardware. Don't mean much to you indoor guys, but there's nothing out there that can touch the XITE-1 in a live performance venue.
I would go as far to say it can do my rig, and double/triple as a Monitor/FOH system all simultaneously in realtime. I'd love to hear of any other platform that can make similar claims, and I will even give that option twice the cost of the XITE-1. So for 7 large, who can name something...............?
I See...said the Blindman.

[garyb]

And Im looking forward to the day where SC announce that the Pulsar, Pulsar2, Scope and Scope2 are legacy products and will therefor not receive any new updates. Any company in the world has to earn money to survive, innovate and create. And let us be honest - there're EXTREMELY few on this forum that are prepared to invest any more money on their Scope environment.

SC - Please let the old platform die and let us concentrate on the new XITE platform. Make 64bit for XITE only and if you have time in the next 3-5 years then maybe release that for the current PCI cards.

I agree if they fix all bugs for the pci version.Not 98% of the bugs..i mean 100%!And make plugs compatibel to a certain degree.

that would be the FIRST time anything like that happened in the computer industry.

actually, i don't think that Scope PCI developement actually slows XITE(pci-e) developement. i suspect that they're pretty synergystic, since they're almost the identical technology. S/C really needs the be praised for continuing to support Scope in all forms, although it's obvious that sooner or later the PCI cards will have to be abandoned. after that, they'll still be good for another 10 years, so no worries...