A theoretical limit on sampled piano dynamics

[garyb]

I am sorry Gary.

If you just want to just play piano by yourself, that is fine but there is a cost to recording; an enormous cost if you want to do it right. We are not just musicians in this group. I assume everyone wants to record music at home.

well, a fake piano will NEVER be the same as a real piano. i'll bet that you can save a LOT more money by happily using one of the less than spectacular romplers, and then when all is the way you like it, you can rent a great room with a nice piano and record all the piano parts. then you won't need to jump through so many hoops.

likewise, you could enjoy some of these virtual pianos for what they are, which is pretty good. as to the dynamics issue, yes, i have definitely experienced that, but on the other hand, for pop and jazz, dynamics really don't need to be what they are for classical or all acoustic music, which again for serious work(other than tv, movies and commercials which don't like overly dynamic material), one could just record a real piano. it'd be easier and it would sound better. having more resolution in an electronic keyboard's dynamics would be a great thing, of course.

[dawman]

With the amount of power of newer CPU's I have faith in Physical Modelling.
Until then Romplers will fly off of the shelves.
I actually will buy another one soon from Scarbee that's done on a rare and beautiful sounding Grand Piano. Actually he recorded Alicia Keyes Grand and she will distribute it.
It has all of the pedals included, and because Scrabee is one of the more experienced developers going back to Gigasampler in the '90's, it should be really good.
So I will try another one, but the difference is this one has the performance features that most developers figure nobody uses.
This kind of developement I welcome, as it is a complete attempt at emulating the instrument.
It should attract many performers and recording enthusiasts, and with a celebrity backing the R & D, as well as the marketing and distribution, it should do really well.
So there's my yearly purchase of another virtual Piano.
Maybe she'll answer the phone if I need support too.....ankyuvarymush...

[braincell]

The piano will be the first acoustic instrument to be successfully mimicked with physical modeling. It is a very simple percussive instrument. The V-Piano could be 80% there. I will make it a point to play one when I am back in the dc area in a month. Samples would be nice if memory was not an issue; if you had 100 velocity layers and hundreds of gigabytes of RAM which could load very quickly. Sympathetic vibrations is over rated in pianos to me. There also could be a combination of physical modeling and samples.

[LHong]

BTW and FYI, Roland accepts a Pre-Order for V-Piano from B&H - Expect arriving in May-09 ($5,995.00)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5 ... _with.html
Long

[braincell]

Lease for as low as $208/mo

[astroman]

...Sympathetic vibrations is over rated in pianos to me. There also could be a combination of physical modeling and samples.

well, taste is different - for me it would be essential
I've had the first version of the GEM Realpiano expander and preferred it even over Gigasampler, though Giga had the better sample set.
That thing was from 97 or so and it featured samples plus physical modelling (for the resonance part) obviously, using same kind of Sharc DSP btw...
I never listened to the 2nd version of that expander, but it's probably not as bad as people (seem to) consider an Italian brand.
After all it always breaks down to marketing, doesn't it ?

cheers, Tom

[next to nothing]

I didnt even know there was a market segment demand between the ramplers and the big real ones, except for keyboards/EPs.To expensive for amateur stuff, to fake for serious stuff, and as with romplers and alike it will probably sound just as shit in a recording as a regular VSTi as long as its signal isn't treated right. I hope they install MS Songsmith in it, then it will do me some good.

[dawman]

Songsmith ???.....
I didn't know you had a GMRP Tom. Those are very good. It was Keith Emerson who convinced them to use the sympathetic tech.
The only reason I never bought one is because they always pack 'em w/ extra sounds instead of more controls. But that was a great Piano for it's time no doubt. NAMM '97 was where I saw it and I had to wait over an hour just to play it. Herbie Hancock was upstairs demo'ing the first wireless ear monitors from Jerry Harvey/Shure, and his Fazolli was much more impressive, but yes the Real Piano has hardly been outdone, even after 12 more years of attempts. The only advancement I have seen is in the action department, and in all honesty, you either play or you don't. Nothings perfect. Any Pianist has had to play on whatever was available and after a short whine if any, they just do it.
I hope PTeq continues, and the Rompler Kings also continue.
They should join forces IMHO, and then have a great Italian keybed installed w/ PAT, and MIDI Spec #88.
In all honesty, the scientists that are always shown with their white coats are useless IMHO. They need to show the real R & D of some snobby Pianist over the shoulders of an experienced developer. Then I would consider the excessive prices they try to exact from us.
I can't believe that a group of white coated doctorates is even needed to do what is necessary, it's so insulting when this type of marketing is used. Save the cash, and lower the price...

[astroman]

Songsmith ???.....
I didn't know you had a GMRP Tom. Those are very good. It was Keith Emerson who convinced them to use the sympathetic tech...

interesting to know
actually I bought it 2nd hand when they were already sellout items.
I always suspected there was something wrong with my unit.
Not totally bad, but some strange kind of harshness and noisy tone. I probably killed it when fiddling around with it and trying all kinds of nonsense... As a stage piano it would have been still usefull, but then I didn't gig, so I really didn't miss it.

I'd expect the silver version with blue lights, (sound generation from the Promega, afaik) to sound much better. The Promega was probably too spacey looking for a broader market, and it was expensive anyway - motorfaders etc. Seems indeed difficult to market that stuff...
Other than that I fail to see what's so revolutionary with Roldand's recent device.

cheers, Tom

[dawman]

V-Piano's nothing new, repackaged ROM w/ slightly more options than the 700 model. It is a step in the right direction as the ROM must be quite large compared to other models. But for 6 large I can't justify that. Only if the sounds were twice as good as a 3000 USD stage piano, and they are not.
Slightly OT here, but I was using a PhysMod Piano from a BETA test that allowed me to load more VSTi's and GVI's but got tired of it's mediocre sound, but the Pedals were a pleasure for solo work. Just in case this is useful for anyone with Rompler troubles.
So I went back to a RAM/HDD based large sized Piano and adding that back to my project seemed to strain the CPU as I noticed clicks on my Horn sections ( K2 CHH. Vol. 2 ) when I stacked all 3. So after an hour of optimizing and rebooting apps. I still was hearing them on the stacks.
A simple phone call to GaryB to make sure my idea of raising the ULLI from 3 msec. to 7 msec. would work. He was correct about it being a CPU not RAM issue, as the extra msec.'s in latency appears to have allowed the CPU a little extra headroom.
But I am maxxed out right now on CPU, latency settings and RAM using 32bit.
Thankfully it's just enough to do my new projects I will need it for.

Edit: I actually had to make a new project as I added a Guitar VSTi and Softube's Acoustic Feedback. When making a new project all of the Horns and Guitars add that worthless IR crap which was spiking the CPU. I deleted all of that garbage and have returned to 3 msec.'s...ankyuvarymush.
http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php ... &sk=t&sd=a

[braincell]

The V-Piano like the other Roland V instruments does not use any ROM.

Instead of the Xite-1 you can buy the most powerful computer on the market and get a lot more bang for your buck.

[garyb]

Instead of the Xite-1 you can buy the most powerful computer on the market and get a lot more bang for your buck.

ummm, no.

[valis]

Instead of the Xite-1 you can buy the most powerful computer on the market and get a lot more bang for your buck.

ummm, no.

When braincell speaks, he speaks of what he would do but forgets to mention "I think" "it seems to Me" "in my opinion" etc, leading to endless banter about his seemingly sweeping aphorisms. We need a phpbb plugin to insert that stuff back into his posts maybe?

[dawman]

Well I stand corrected, whatever it uses it's sound and playabilty aren't worth the ante.
And yes I would rather buy a 6000 Mac/PC than a V-Piano, that's for sure.
But I'd rather have an XITE-1 than the Computer, but I will just settle for both, and await a killer DSP Piano since the power of 18 SHARCS will rule the Planet....... ...ankyu.

DSP Pianos w/ RAM onboard from STS series samples should do the trick I think.

[astroman]

the point with Roland/Boss COSM technolgy is that there is some excellent stuff out there - and some total crap.
Usually you have to use it to find out.
the FX processor in my 808 groovebox/sampler is excellent considering the time it was released, so is my ME50 Bass pedal. The Deluxe Reverb-65 pedal is trash, as is the amp modelling in their Cube amps or the SonicCell Rompler... They have an outstanding Variphrase synth, but I don't even think of using the timestretching on my RC50 looper pedal.
All that stuff is labelled COSM, wtf

cheers, Tom

[Gordon Gekko]

hum, there was mechanical pianos that you could put a 'sheet' into to automatically play a piece.. has that techno been evolving? Is there a midified version of the device out there these days? that'd be cool, record your piece in midi as good as you can and then correct the midi to obtain a perfect interpretation.. then of course pull the microphones out and record the sound of the piano. Or learn how to play the piano

[kensuguro]

gary - for me getting a real piano is a serious option, but I need a silent piano that I can switch over to mute+MIDI out to use at night. Otherwise, even if I get a good piano, I will only be able to use it few hours during the weekend. Crappy thing is that a used U1 may cost around $3k, while a silent version is $6k, exactly double. heh, and the v-piano is $6k too. Problem is that US gets very few silent pianos per shipment, so distribution is extremely limited, and esp in NY where they are very popular, it's really hard to come by a used one. (or even a new one, if I had $13k lying around) Silent consoles are a little more common.. but those sound like crap.

But anyway, I think a lot of the posts have got my message wrong. It's not another typical physmod vs sampling thread, I'm just saying, if the sampled dynamics fit the controller's velocity range, the feel would be a little better. In some instances, I think resolution can be traded for better feel. Also, I wanted to make a point that sampling for production and performance should be separate. 2 different sets of requirements.

Also, a piano is not a simple instrument. A single instance of the mechanics is simple, but the problem is that it has 88 instances that affect each other, connected via the soundboard, tightly confined in a resonating body. I guess it still is mechanically simple, but in terms of a physics phenomenon, it's overwhelmingly (to the point of chaos) complex.

You know what's funny though.. is that after all the rave about physmod instruments in the late 90's.. we got plucked string, bowed string, brass, and reed, flutes... and I don't think many people use it for whatever reason. The flutes were good, but everything else sounded crappy at the time, and after 10 year, they sound about the same. crappy. I hope physmod pianos don't fall into that category. It's like virtual reality. Once in a while, it takes the media by storm, a lot of money is thrown at it... and it goes away like a hurricane.

[garyb]

no, i got that Ken, and i agree(what's not to agree with?).

i just find it interesting all the energy that goes into the "perfect piano". it's a sickness, like the guitar player babbling on about "my sound"(my sound is a strat through a fender twin or my sound is a les paul and a digitech space control ). most of the stuff we do really doesn't require anything better than the romplers already in existence and for the special stuff, one could rent a nice room with a good piano for a couple of hours, probably saving money and nerves. i could see the need for better a feeling controller and more accurate dynamics(even if still in a limited range), though....

[braincell]

There is something else about the V-Piano besides the sound which Kensuguro has touched on. It has a mechanical apparatus different from any other electronic piano in history. It has real strings with real hammers hitting them. Besides the velocity, the strings also control the resonance. This is more than just hype as Astroman would love to contend. He hasn't played it. Neither have I but I have a feeling that it is an amazing instrument. I would rather have this than a real piano I think but I will tell you after I play one.

[garyb]

that's right! formula is BETTER for baby than mother's milk....