New Ideas for Pulsar Modular Pt. 2

Anything about the Scope modular synths

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castol
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Post by castol »

the thread was getting a bit long, so here is a continuation.

i am in some sort of posting binge so bear with me...

talked to spirit a bit and he suggested concize the entries a bit more (leave out all the barble gabble). as well as group the entries by their feasability.

imho only 4 entries fall into unfamilar distant terriitory.

kensuguro's post.

joeka's post on resonant neuron synthesis.

yade's post on non-sharc interfacing (which actually got resolved what i thought was satisfactorily).

&

MarlinSpike's post on 3d wave synthesis.

Spirit suggested we keep the list as small as possible too reduce "eye glaze" :lol:, but i am hesitant to just filter out peoples ideas, and especially because they are to advanced or far reaching (we need those kinds of idea makers!).

anyhow, i redid the list and shortened it signficantly, but did leave somethings out, or compacted them into similar ideas.

coming up next...

after this i swear NO more posts today!
castol
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Post by castol »

<pre>
1. About Page for patches. Like the shareware devices have, e.g. Ingo's "Guitar Amp".
:algorhythm:

2. Custom Oscillators, e.g. John Bowens "Pro One", "Rotor", Nicolas Choukroun "Analogy".
a joint endeavor. :algorhythm:

3. Granulation as an effect or synthesis type. :algorhythm:

4. Improvements to our collection of sequencers:

- Ability to display 32 steps via 16/32 button :spirit:


- Ability to output discrete note, velocity and controller data
outside of patches via the sequencers *see idea #6*. Or perhaps
just have a midi out on each sequencer which one could hook up
easily to the midi out. :subhuman:

- Ability to "tab" between fields/controls (maybe hold a key combo for e.g. shft+tab,
to tab through one or the other). For quicker data entry, or something similar to the
way the MDS functions with arrowwing and the spacebar. :Spirit,castol:

- Ability to set midi channel output numbers per track (would mean that
sequencer modules would be independent of the global patch channel). :madmod:

- Ability to set on a per track basis the note number, outputed. :alfonso:

- * Multiple midi outs (not sure i get the reasononing behind this?) :madmod:

- Continous pitch controls on the pitch sequencers (none of this semitone stuff).
:TonyR:

- A frequency readout for the pitch sequencers. You wouldn't necessarilly need one
for each step, just one which displayed the frequency whatever step you were
positioned at, from clicking on that steps control, or via tabing, or what have you.
:TonyR:

- Ability to program triplets into the sequencers. :TonyR:

5. An "Export to audio file" feature. :spirit:

6. A Modulator to Midi CC convertor module. So as to be able to
use modulators in a patch to modulate external mod patches, devices
or anything that can take midiinput (sequencers, external hardware, software).
Maybe a CC to Modulator module as well. :subhuman, MarlinSpike, castol:

7. Morphing Targets, like in the Nord Modulator.

And one control to rule them all!

We would need the ability to set the range, or start end of of modulation for each
parameter assigned to the morphing control.

Also, if we could say, have a module that does this, with actual
knobs, and mod inputs to control these "morphs" via modulation. :massus:

8. An Oscilloscope, for audio and mod signal sleuthing :wink: :castol:

9. The ability to load Modular patches inside of patches (nested) and in insert slots:

- Patches once loaded (modular) would need to look like normal modules
and they would need to have i/o for gate, frequency, modulation,
etc., multiple amounts even. These extra i/o would need a seperate
module that you could hook into, or output of. :alfonso,castol:

10. A Quad Crossfade Module, ala the Yamaha Tg33 (or vectron,
wavestation). It would have 4 inputs and 2 mod inputs for the x, y axis,
with something aproximating Defex's Joystick controller he uses a lot in
his devices for controlling the crossfading manually. :castol:

11. Filter frequency controls which display pop up value windows for the exact
frequency they are tuned to, when one holds their pointer on top of the parameter.
Maybe just ditch numerical values all together and go for "real units" instead.
:kensuguro:

12. Interface abstratraction -- like the control surface that is built with reaktor
patches. "add this knob to my quick control surface". Built-in controller scale, and
ranging of incoming and outgoing data. Perhaps a joint venture with some hardware
controller developer? :six_wax:

13. A basic Waveshaping Module. :six_wax:

14. Easier ability to "wrap" modular patches into devices for Scope developers,
and maybe just maybe, a Small development pack (soft only) for much less than what Scope DP
costs (for e.g. $200-500 -vs- $6000 usd) to enable modular patches to be wrapped into
devices, with some sort of of custom interface. There would have to be some
limitations here, to keep scope viable. Which would be understandable. A new breed of developer would be born!
:junklight, BIT01:

15. Modulatable Delays -- change time via modulation input....smoothly, without clicking.
:six_wax:

16. Something approximating a 4 part (or more) cross-over network (mono and stereo
versions should be provided). Which one could use to split up an audio signal into band
limited parts.

The cross-over points perhaps could be modulated via mod input, or at the least
by midi.

A simple Delay line could be introduced after each band limitation, so you could introduce
each frequency range individually until you built up the complete sound.
:joeka, MarlinSpike:

17. * Audio/Modulation Patchbay for e.g. 8x3 (needs to be explained a bit more, for
myself at least). :joeka:

18. More Forgiving .WAV reader:

- Stereo .WAV support.

- Stereo .WAVs supported even in MONO Wave players - upon loading, it asks "Use
Left", "Use Right", or "Mix".

- Loading .WAV files even with header information which is saved by almost all
popular .WAV editors by default - and these won't load into Mod2.
:subhuman:

19. An Invertor Module. :castol:

20. Mixer more suited for modulation mixing (though not limited to) that has on a per
channel basis the ability to invert, & rectify ( +- full and half wave). :castol:

21. * Sort of in a similar vein as the "Morph Groups" suggestion. Say a 2, 4, 8 channel
mixer type module, with range limiting, rectification, and inversion on each input -
direct outputs for each adjacent input - a single control (knob). The control part of
the modules would come from a Single Knob with a mod input which would offset or scale
each coming input, going out. :castol:

22. Waveform Drawn Oscillator/Lfo:

There could be a drawing window, which would allow freeform drawing with the mouse
(maybe the mouse pointer changing to the pencil tool) Standard wave shapes could be
selected or a clear button would give a blank drawing area. Drawing over or
correcting the waveform overwrites the displayed waveform. A frequency controller
knob (it would be grand if it enabled positive and negative values / forward and
reverse playing of the waveform). All the other functions of the Multi LFO A. A smoothing
function would be nice, as well as a line drawing tool. :MarlinSpike:

23. * 3d waveform window, which could be played across different planes of the 3
dimmensions. Perhaps the waveform plane could be rotated by three midi assignable knobs
representing the (x,y,z) axis. Again with all the functions of the Multi LFO.
(needs to be explained a bit more). :MarlinSpike:

24. A bank of 8 sine waves, with a built-in mixer and frequency multiple per
oscillator, mixed to a single output. :castol:

25. The ability to Shift-Select Modules for movemant, and or select modules with a Bounding
Box. :castol:

26. The ability to scroll the modular when a module is dragged around

27. The abilty to like Opt-Ctrl click on a module (or group of modules), and
navigate to where one wants the module(s) to go and just click there. The
module(s) would be moved to this new location, or in the case of a group, the top
most left module would be placed at the point where one has clicked, and all the
rest would follow. :castol:

28. The ability to insert a label/name into the module, where the module name is. SpaceF's "text
modular" works great, but it takes up precious space. :castol:

29. Logic Modules. And, Or, Not, XoR....etc. :castol:

30. A Flip Flop module. Which would take two signals (or more) and switch between them via
a gate signal (logic on), maybe with the ability to change the behavior of the switching.
:castol:

31. Multisample Module with 2-3 velocity switched (or other) layers. :castol:

32. Sampler Module with ability to modulate via mod inputs and midi; loop start, end, and both
start and end together (slipped). As well as sample start, and end. :castol:

</pre>



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: castol on 2002-04-14 06:20 ]</font>
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alfonso
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Post by alfonso »

and what about modular frames that can be loaded in insert slots, to build custom insert effects, to load in every insert slot, from the mixers' ones to other patches' ones? (monstrous sound matrioskas would be available :lol: ). seriously.
ciao, alfonso
subhuman
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Post by subhuman »

Long threads are good... :smile:
BIT01
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Post by BIT01 »

I just like to have the chance to edit interface like in reaktor with bitmaps and maybe compiling my modular 2 stuff to have a .dev like a small devpack that would be killer.
This platforms lacks in some way developers so what about letting us cool ppl njoy some of the goods ?
castol
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Post by castol »

alfonso: i added your 4th suggestion. it fits in with the modular module patch loading, so i just tacked it on to that idea.

bit01:

what you suggest would be nice, yes....but i highly doubt creamware would give users that much power. i can't put my finger on why exactly, but it just seems highly unlikely.

now, the suggestion to make it fairly straightforward for scope developers to "wrap" modular patches would be along these lines somewhat. it would undoubtly mean a massive influx of new synths, effects, and devices - with clean interfaces and small footprints.

scope dp (which everything is developed in) from my understanding is just one great big fun modular :lol:, of course at 6 grand to join the club it is clearly not aimed at a very large percentage of users.

what creamware MAY do....is figure out some way to scale back the price or offer a "smaller" developement package (as you suggest) without such a heavy investment so as to attract more developers....

how they would do this i don't know.

i would willing to pay upwards of $200-300 i think, for a modularII .dev development pack (depending on what could be done with it of course).

i don't think it would be free...never know however. i find its best not to just expect things for free, although i like the free stuff all the same :wink:

i think i could swing 2k for scope dp, but 6k means i won't ever consider it, really.

good idea, more ideas people!
castol
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Post by castol »

added BIT01's idea to the 14th suggestion, "Easier ability to Wrap modular patches, for Scope developers and a new breed of developers, which would be born".
castol
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Post by castol »

new idea for a module.

a 12 input rotary switch, with the ability to modulate the positions on the switch via a "smoothable" mod input as well as manually....the switching would be of a continous, crossfaded between postion type. it would be nice to be able turn this behaviour off and just have the module work as a norml sticky 12 position (or whatever amount) switch.

oh, yah :grin:...and a better method of matrixing mod sources to mod inputs. right now i can't think of anything fancy schmancy, but a 12x1 module that took up the same area as a 4x1 would make me happy. maybe ditch the slider and instead introduce a mouse scrollable data display selector.

i want the ability to select any mod source to modulate a mod input (for flexibility). i guess in all fairness modular synths don't really work this way (the hard ones) very well. maybe i ought to rethink my want for matrixing so much...hmmm.






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: castol on 2002-04-15 04:23 ]</font>
JoeKa
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Post by JoeKa »

How about a modular frame that has, say, 4 additonal mod-signal I/Os so that two independant patches can exchange modulation, too? This would give the chance to build sets of special modulation-only and a nother one of sound-only patches, which can be easily recombined.
Alternative this could be done by a pair of audio-modsignal translator modules (or a switch on the audio-I/Os) and then use the frame´s external audio connectors for interchange.

Then there comes a mixer module to mind, a joystick or a X/Y point slider in a quadratic field of which each corner means panning the input to that output only. With this, we could build real surround capable synthpatches! Or this could be done by a similar module, but handling just modsignals instead, so four seperate ampmodules (one for each output) can be triggered. This device should as big as possible so the pointer can be moved very smoothly. Maybe handling could be even finer with mouse-movement scaling, so you can even draw in a larger field than just within this module?
castol
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Post by castol »

hi joeka,

seems you didn't catch my note in the other thread.

i asked if you could expand upon your mod matrix idea, it wasn't clear to me what exactly you were getting at (i/o, selection....purpose). i mean it sounds pretty obvious, but your description just didn't give me any bright idea of anything exactly.

your first idea can basically be summed up to the 9th one that alfonso and i worked out.

a quadratic panner would be interesting. i would think it would be possible to do with a collection of modules now but it would be rather complicated.

its the same sort of deal (and idea) with my quad crossfade module suggestion

there is a a <a href="http://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~clark/nordmod ... k_toc.html"> nord modular tutorial</a href> which shows how to do this (want to try it, but haven't just yet yet). the tutorial is called vector synthesis.

i'll add this one to the 10th suggestion.

also, if your interested in multi-speaker setups have you checked out that plug being sold in the 3rd party cw shop. <a href="http://www.creamware.de/en/Products/plu ... t.asp">the z-matrix surround panning tool</a href>

looks pretty cool if a bit out of my league. my idea of a humungous multi speaker setup like that would be in like a live situation. or if i were working with someone on a installation type thingy (which i haven't).

its definetly different.

best.
castol
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Post by castol »

found this <a href="http://home.wanadoo.nl/falcon/altpnl/in ... l">link</a href> on ben's modular corner.

some good ergonmic ideas. i completely overlooked this aspect although i find myself battling space constraints quite a bit.

the page is pretty old (00") but hey what the heck.

paul van der valk btw is the one who created those two awesome (if not a little confusing) physcial modelling patches , python and mini python and subsequent device origination which john bowen is working on (forget the name).

and on second thought, adding popup labels into ALL the modules would be a bit much work i'd think. however, paul's suggestion for small 2 and 4 channel mixers (switches too) with popup labels (like the micro mixer?) would be a pretty straightforward thing to do.

i'll mail paul and see what he has to say.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: castol on 2002-04-19 07:35 ]</font>
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Ben Walker
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Post by Ben Walker »

Hi,
just wanted to say thanks for your valiant efforts in trying to summarise the outstanding requests for new features needed for the Modular.

I think there is no point in posting this request to CW just yet - I think anything not directly related to getting v3.1 (SFP) out the door asap will get put to one side right now, but I'm confident that once SFP is out, CW will be able to concentrate on issues like this, and I'm sure we'll see more developments for the Modular in due time.

For me, I think the most important change/improvement that could be made would be for CW to open up the development of Modular modules to 3rd party Scope developers. I can't think of any good reason why they would not do this, so I think this must also be a matter of time.

If 3rd parties can develop for Mod2, then all sorts of new modules will appear, I'm sure. Here's hoping, anyway.
And thanks again for your hard work - you've managed to condense a very long thread into a very concise and manageable list of requests,

Cheers,
Ben
castol
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Post by castol »

thanks ben, spirit unknowingly gave me the push to do it.

he did the first iteration, i the second, gave me some helpfull commentary.

we agreed it was best to wait. hopefully we catch them in a stage of development of the modular where they can really give these ideas some substance.

i agree, openly acknowledging that the modular is open to 3rd party development would be a very big plus.

i mailed cw a month (or two?) back where i addressed this issue and a few others, no word back though.

i think for me the most exiciting thing would be alfonso's & my idea for being able to load modules into patches themselves (and inserts, as efx). and for these module patches to have all manner of i/o availible on the outside of the module. well...just a subset of i/o which could be hooked into and taken out of a specific module(s) within the patch. not everything in the patch so to speak.

the list still needs a bit of work, and i'd like to add the most current suggestions and maybe reorder it, but for now i'm just going to leave it as is until sfp comes to bear.

best.
castol
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Post by castol »

working portamento for sample modules.
Spirit
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Post by Spirit »

How about a pop-up surface for the sequencer modules ? This would enable us to get rid of the ridiculously small interface and slider grab handles. The pop-window could also be applied to the 16-step drum pattern sequencer so we could go to 32 or even 64 steps.

How about MIDI note input for the pitch sequencers ? Instead of using the mouse, input notes from the keyboard.

A "publish" feature where you can nominate which modules will be visible in the published file. This would lead to much smaller surfaces and (preumably) allow a degree of "ownership" on the device since not all the functions would be editable on the published file. This aspect is open to debate about its usefullness - perhaps all modules should remain open to all users. Maybe a "show hidden modules" function ? This idea is prompted by some of the HUGE ModV2 patches where it's hard enough to just scroll around the devices, let alone know which knobs are the vital ones to tweak.

Pitch modulation on the drum synth modules. This would allow a bpm-synced LFO to produce (for example) precisely timed tom rolls.

Sample mangling. This is what Reaktor does brilliantly. Can there be a module that allows for stereo wav loading, slicing, replay and rearranging. I'm not sure how this would work but it seems to me that the ModV2 environment should be a good place to mangle samples and loops. Suggestions ?

XY controller pad. (Has this been mentioned before ?) An XY surface with assignable inputs.

--------

ps: When we've finally compiled this list how can we submit it ? If it just comes as an email from one of us it will not carry much weight (do I lack faith?). I wonder if one of the heavyweights here with "personal contacts" might present it for us ? :wink:
castol
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Post by castol »

hi spirit,

some ideas on your suggestions.

i really have no comment on sequencer module improvements, its one of many areas of the modular i haven't given attention to...yet. i've been reading up on hard modular sequencers and all the fun stuff you can do with some of them (features permitting), which i'd like to experiment with some more.

i don't know about this publish feature you reccomend.

speaking for myself and the patches i've made. arranging the non-tweakable stuff (vca's, math stuffs...etc.) below or off to the side of the tweakable stuff (where one can shrink the size of the patch window, thus hiding) works just fine ime.

besides these elements, the rest of the modules are meant to be tweaked. and yes, the visual area can still tend to be quite large.

i think people just have to get used to the idea of a modular patch being large (which true to life, they are) if they want some more esoteric or feature rich stuffs.

BUT!!! cw could do a lot to optimize the space all the modules take, and to make labels an integrated feature of most or all modules.

i agree on a more fully featured sample implementation. being able to turn loops on/off, supporting stereo files, less picky about sample loading, sample start/end and loop start/end with the ability to slip both ends (sample and or loop, defiently loop) together modulation. maybe with just two mod inputs where you can choose what parameters to modulate. support for building keymapped multisamples.

i don't know about built in sample editing though (if i am understanding you correctly), reaktor lets you do this? sts has it as well i think, but....really unless cw could do better than a dedicated audio editor or something like recycle i wouldn't use it. in fact i find programs that do have these facilities mostly inferior to the dedicated stuffs.

the x, y controller pad thingy was sort of mentioned by myself earlier, but i took it out because i figured out how to do vector crossfading (which is what i asked for in a single module, with an x, y joystick) fairly easily with a collection of 10 or so modules.

anyhow, yes...it would be neat to have a joystick module all the same, with x, and y mod outputs :smile: maybe to spice things up a bit they could implement some kind of "record" functionality where you could twiddle the joystick and have it play back your twiddling single shot, or looped :smile:, that would be very cool. you could choose to use it 1 of 3 different ways; as an x, y realtime joystick, as a recorded envelope as such (with gate in, vel level in, key time in, and key vel level in), or as an lfo. i allways thought this was a real novel feature in the tg-33.

lastly, yes....great idea! i bet subhuman would be more than happy to mail out the list, with a few encouraging words :wink: hes got quite a bit of gusto i reckon :lol:.

best.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: castol on 2002-05-10 07:14 ]</font>
Michu
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Post by Michu »

sidechain on compressor...
small thing and lots of joy
BIT01
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Post by BIT01 »

I'm curious to know how at cream they will reply and consequently act :smile:
SFP is out and is not so buggy so maybe is about time to send the list and wait for action from them...before they copy some other Behringer hw device and come up with something the likes of psyq or optimaster way too overpriced :smile:
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kensuguro
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Post by kensuguro »

It would be great if many of the devices had a stereo counterpart, filters in particular. Or atleast some way to link the LR pair together. This would be very effective for building your own effects.

And of course, I wouldn't mind a "smoother" of some sort that smoothes out numbers, kind of like portamento, but can also be used to blend control data without having jittery jumps.
castol
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Post by castol »

well, since an enumeratus, a.k.a Klaus Piehl from creamware <a href="http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... >posted</a href> here, mentioning that they HAVE seen the list here and WILL take a large note of it when they do start development on the modular v3. i just sort of lost interest in redoing the list, and adding to it, sending it out. probobly still wouldn't be a bad idea to do, but it needs some work still, and i'd like all the later suggestions incorporated.

kensuguro:

someone else brought up the wish for stereo devices like filters and whatnot in another thread (i think a topaz). i don't understand why, really...if just to link controls? which can be partially done by using mod inputs.

smoothing of mod signals can be done now, with the envelope follower. but it only works correctly with unipolar signals. if you feed it a bipolar control signal the bottom half of wave is folded up into the top half (full wave rectification). maybe they could just add a switch to change the input behavior and subsequent output?

well, those are my thoughts...anyways.




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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: castol on 2002-05-20 11:24 ]</font>
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