Pro Flexor for Scope 5 - PETITION

[HUROLURA]

:shock:

In my mind, Scope Modular without the enhancement provided by Flexor would just be a NonSense : I did not really expect something from Scope 5.0 (maybe some bug fixed, Vista and OS X support but not more). As Scope 5.0 was announced to be free of charge for Scope 4.5 owner, I was not that bothered about that). In fact, I just thought the main goal of this 5.0 version was to change the activation keys management in order to prevent the bargain deal bundle offer that happenned once form use-audio (during the pre launch period of the plugiator...).
But I did not expect this Scope 5.0 thing to get other 3rd like Adern into trouble.
For a Scope board user this would just mean to have to choose between plug-in or Vista/OS X support (personnaly I would choose Plug-in and keep on using my "old" PC and Mac OS 9 PowerMaC both with flexor activited on one of their board).
The great news for me was that the Xite-1 would provide enough room for more advanced setup using Flexor or some other recent devices like COS and VOID.
If this is not possible, yhis would be a kind of return to the past...

A native version of Flexor wouldn't be of any interest for me as I just trust DSP solution more than any native computer solution. A computer is a great tool to set up user interface functions and manage files, and run a sequencer but I would not ask it to "calculate" sound as it is not a realtime predictive system as a DSP system can be.

Flexor is one of the rare plug-ins I bought as an extra for my DSP board (I tend to buy plug-ins with DSP boards to get extra DSP ressource together with new sound sources ).

The trick is I was thinking about getting the upgrade from Flexor 1.5 to Flexor 3 in the next months with the idea in mind to wait for a lower cost Xite sister to give it enough DSP-power afterward. The dream is now kind of going nightmare...

But calm down Man, I think we would soon wake up and realize it was just a nightmare.

PS:
This just looks like the kind of discussions that appeared with the time limited bargain offer from Use-Audio.
We all thought Holger and Frank should meet and have a beer together and try to setup a more coopereative business:
- The Plugiator is a cheap entry level solution to taste the sound of scope based plugins
- The Xite-1 is an high-end solution providing a much more powerfull and flexible solution
There is market enough for both systems and they should try to increase market share to other competitors rather than between them.
I think I guess from whom Red_Muse got the solution to be able to release Flexor 3 .

Let's just hope things will get better...

CheerZ

[cyril108]

A native version of Flexor wouldn't be of any interest

I agree because max/msp, reaktor and bidule is enough for me. What I want with Xite is a real good dsp modular audio engine I can control with Max algo. And Mod3/flex3 do that job!

[sonicstrav]

SC don't realise that the flexor stuff is of MASSIVE importance to their platform. Hopefully more of these posts will show them this is the case!

They can't treat Red_Muze like any 3rd party dev - it's a case of what he can offer them rather than the other way round!

[maky325]

coool! let's start another flame war! [/sarcasm]

mpodrug, check your ears and speakers...
of course i agree on the top quality developers you mention, but imho there are some more...nothing more to say

Apology if i sounded rude. I am just pissed on that flexor situation not on you of course. However i said IMO and i can say again. There is nothing wrong with my ears/speakers.

Crap exist in every software realm. You only have to accept it....Nothing to be shocked about.

Flexor....

[pling]

no worries. no offence intended. of course you can discuss your opinion.
i disagree with you (not in general, of course)
and i was in a bad mood, because of the current situation regarding flexor.
and yes i found it rude, but not against me of course.

peace

[Tau]

Personally, I think there are great sounding devices for Scope, especially in terms of synthesis. Analog models are fun, easy to grasp and sound familiarly good, but I always leaned more to modulars and semi-modulars like the BlackBox and Bowen's RD-synths, not only to experiment and learn about synthesis, but also to go beyond the limits set by the synth designer.

The "modular" Pro-Wave, for example, is the perfect example of what I'm saying, being, at the same time, a retro-inspired but extremely versatile synth that sounds great on its own, but which can then not only incorporate different modules and insert fx, but also be incorporated into a more complex modular patch, while retaining its personality and familiarity.

SpaceF's synths are also built with this in mind, allowing you to load your favorite modules into pre-configured structures, or use the filters and oscillators inside modular patches. Besides, they have quite unusual modulation tricks that are very interesting and useful - and groundbreaking stuff like the multisynth and the LBH.

But the point is: nothing sounds like Flexor, and nothing does what Flexor does.

ModIII without Flexor is just lame. useful, but lame in the face of other synths available. Flexor being exclusive to SC would be a great selling point for the platform, but that's gone now. What i don't understand is why SC won't generate a Scope5 key at least for existing users of Flexor 3 - after all, the software is still sold in their shop, and if it's only a key-generation issue, there really should be no question about this - even without added poliphony and new modules.

IMO, Flexor is THE TOOL for sound design in Scope - I never thought it could be dismissed so easily considering all the work that was put into it. Besides, 90% of my Modular patches have some Flexor module in there - what should I do? I will need to sell my current cards to buy XITE, so all this is very important.

I wish the best of luck to Assaf in native world, and I'm interested in hearing that, but I doubt it'll sound like what I have now. It's really sad that it has come to this.

In retrospective, I should have pre-ordered the Solaris, and leave my Scope rig alone. But Oh! the illusion of portability, great poliphony and faster loading projects tempted me and led me out of my path... again There's always something, if not magma, flexor... grrr


T

[dawman]

That is the best post yet Tau, totally informative and respective to the platform and it's developers.

You are responsible for my expansion of programability thanks to your tutoring and pics you sent me.

Mod. III is very basic and incomplete no doubt. Adern stepped in and took over for the lack of developement, at least we enjoyed it for a while.

We will probably have to turn the page and hope someone as talented as Assaf takes over, but those will be hard shoes to fill, I pity the person who trys.

I will only lose my Flexor III Hohner D6 Patch, and that unreproducable Sea Synth that Assaf himself made. I got off easy as you and others have projects full of these awesome creations.

I will be in mourning unless this gets arbitrated.....Hmmm..you'd be perfect for that.

[bill3107]

My thought (i am not saying I am right of course ... ) :

1) First of all it seems that most of well known developpers are following Soniccore's (new) rules and I just assume these financiel rules are necessary for a strong plateform/company. If Adern does not agree, that's their choice of course. I would say it is up to .... Adern now right ? (as Adern is "but" a 3rd party developper !!! They can decide, or not, to follow the Xite way)

2) Man, most of Scope plugins are quite cheap mainly for DSP-based ones (just have a look at UAD, powercore, digidesign ones..) so, yes, I definitly think that raising Flexor price would not curb sales at all.... Flexor is very appreciated, so .... come on guys just raise a little bit ! I would be very interested to know what price you are planning to ask for a native plugin considering crack problems .... Just think about that ! Soniccore can give you a very good protection. For that reason (i mean a vsti would be more expensive than a scope one), it is hard to believe (that's my humble opinion) Adern does not want to raise the price because they only believe in cheap plugins ... If Adern wants to keep its customers, they "just" have to rethink their price policy .... that's what I think. Or developp for several plateform + native (see Brainworx, sonictimeworks...). Damn, what's the problem ? Adern : it is up to you !!!! that's really what I think ...

3) I am not a Flexor addict because I am too lazy so forget points 1 and 2 ...

I hope all the best for both companies, period. For me it is rather a problem of strategy and Soniccore + J. Bowen can lead to many good plugins in terms of synth ... As for Adern, may be they are planning other things ? ... Hard to tell ? I am not asking Soniccore or Adern more answers as strategy must stay secret, right But I hope Adern will re-think about that just for Scopers that love this very good plugin ! As for xite, I have already 1U ready for it ... just because most of the good plugins form scope 4/3rd party will work on Xite. And if i have understood well Holger, current Flexor version should work too ....

[maky325]

My thought (i am not saying I am right of course ... ) :

1) First of all it seems that most of well known developpers are following Soniccore's (new) rules and I just assume these financiel rules are necessary for a strong plateform/company. If Adern does not agree, that's their choice of course. I would say it is up to .... Adern now right ? (as Adern is "but" a 3rd party developper !!! They can decide, or not, to follow the Xite way)

2) Man, most of Scope plugins are quite cheap mainly for DSP-based ones (just have a look at UAD, powercore, digidesign ones..) so, yes, I definitly think that raising Flexor price would not curb sales at all.... Flexor is very appreciated, so .... come on guys just raise a little bit ! I would be very interested to know what price you are planning to ask for a native plugin considering crack problems .... Just think about that ! Soniccore can give you a very good protection. For that reason (i mean a vsti would be more expensive than a scope one), it is hard to believe (that's my humble opinion) Adern does not want to raise the price because they only believe in cheap plugins ... If Adern wants to keep its customers, they "just" have to rethink their price policy .... that's what I think. Or developp for several plateform + native (see Brainworx, sonictimeworks...). Damn, what's the problem ? Adern : it is up to you !!!! that's really what I think ...

3) I am not a Flexor addict because I am too lazy so forget points 1 and 2 ...

I hope all the best for both companies, period. For me it is rather a problem of strategy and Soniccore + J. Bowen can lead to many good plugins in terms of synth ... As for Adern, may be they are planning other things ? ... Hard to tell ? I am not asking Soniccore or Adern more answers as strategy must stay secret, right But I hope Adern will re-think about that just for Scopers that love this very good plugin ! As for xite, I have already 1U ready for it ... just because most of the good plugins form scope 4/3rd party will work on Xite. And if i have understood well Holger, current Flexor version should work too ....

Thus i will say again you can not:

- compare Adern with the rest of so called 3rd party. They invent almost whole new modular platform. While most of others(not all) are just playing with stock atoms wrapped in fancy GUI.
- compare prices quality ratio from UAD, powercore etc. For example UAD DOES NOT HAVE 3rd party at all and EVERY new release of their products is really breakthrough in emulation. (Just look at 33609 reviews). While even today you have pretty much overrated plugins at SC shop(3rd party).

Adern pseudo policy is ...well i will quote him so you can judge by yourself:
the rich and poor should all have access to musical instruments and the edge of technology. if doing business with soniccore means flexor costs twice as much, i pass. flexor is meant to make music. not to amuse lawyers doctors and stock brokers (altho its not a bad thing it does that as well, its the meaning that counts) flexor has cost less than a $ per module, and it will stay that way.

- IMO pretty fair policy if you ask me.

Think twice about. Do you really want that kind of 3rd party policy for your plugin platform(xite)??? This can stop some great ideas and developers right from start. I will say again that there should be some rigorous kind of level quality/category for 3rd party developers. Better one will have better offer from SC. Badly one will have 50% even worse until they are proven to be top quality.

I see better use of small portion of really quality plugins then from a lot of bad quality plugins (which seems to be current situation/image if SC does not change something).

[bill3107]

I do understand your position and I do not pretend to know the truth.

What I meant is that it is up to developpers to accept or not soniccore's stategy. Whether it is right or wrong. They own the hardware !

1) you cannot compare Soniccore's financial strategy with that of 3rd party developpers. This latter spend time whereas Soniccore's products imply transport, goods, manpower, etc ... That's why i understand their policy may have to change (prices, 3rd party agreement) ; and I assume Holger D. has to focus on what will bring money, fame and will help future developpement ... We must face the truth : Flexor and other 3rd party developpers have not succeeded in boosting Creamware so much ! Since Soniccore decided not to follow the Plugiator option, we all knew a new strategy was to come.... Xite may become a killer in 2008, believe me. Sooooo , I do not think Xite depends on Flexor's future. Soniccore has changed and their products too. Developpers have just to follow or not ... and i am happy most of them do (DAS, Spacef, Bowen, ...). Furthermore, it seems that scope 5 will offer more plugins too.

2) Indeed, may be you are right as for Adern's philosophy. If yes, that's great to see in 2008 people looking for a world offering great products at a very low price. Will it last ? Can a small company survive with very low prices ? remember the P100/a100 start : a low price did not lead to huge sales. DAS plugins are cheap too but remember these guys have a big studio too. I mean, a company needs money to pay wages, taxes and gear, etc... When it comes to hardware (Soniccore), things are even worse and your work depends on investments, suppliers, rates, etc ... Soniccore's strategy is, may be, very different from that of Adern.

3) as for Soniccore's plugins, I do believe that a host of 3rd party plugins should have a better GUI to attract more people. Things are getting better and better on this aspect you are right. As for the sound itself, I have already used UAD (I had an expert one) and powercore (great Sonnox plugins mainly) and all I can say is that you can get a killing sound with Scope, period... Just compare your mixes with that of ther musicians... As for emulations they sound very good ! I have read a recent review about Plugiator (KR in France) and as a summary ... the review put emphasis on the very good Creamware's synth sound ... that's almost funny !

Soniccore just need more fame, really. Fame will bring money ... money will bring strength and developpement. I just think Soniccore just follow this logic and yes, Holger may have not enough time to spend for every other strategy .... but that means all the staff is very busy. Great news to me

Flexor's addicts will be able to run their current Flexor under scope 5 (i think so ?) and will be able to buy next releases as a vsti. If you do not like it as a vsti, who takes the blame ? To me : Adern's philosophy. Damn, ADERN (not Soniccore !) can decide OR NOT to change their price or curb their income. The same rule applies to every developper. I am not saying they are wrong ; I am just underlying the fact that THEIR startegy (selling good devices at a low price ?) may not be compatible with that of Soniccore as Adern's income would be too low.

But of course, I hope they will find a way out. That would be great for eveybody. But that's business. Adern needs DSP or CPU so they will have to chose. As for Soniccore they already have the hardware, plugins and many 3rd party developpers...

Again, that's just my opinion (that's but a forum !) ...

[erminardi]

Interesting and condivisible point of view.
I'm very happy if Flexor III will run on Scope 5.0, then I don' think that a Flexor 4.0 is very very necessary (I refuse every thing native/VST apart few like FM8 and some free wanted "aliased" stuff)
I agree: a company needs a lot of taxes and money movements!

Personally I'm ok if Flexor 4.0 for scope will be twice in price. It worts!

[MayN]

And if a regenerate keys from Flexor3 on XITE that users who has already bought keys Flexor3?
I to have Flexor3
and I do not see complexity in it
Can it is necessary write Holger about such variant?

[Tau]

The simplest solution, to my eyes, would be the following:

- Sonic Core BUYS "FlexorIII for Scope" -the product- from Adern for a decent price, and then takes care of sales, compatibility and keys. After that, they could set the price as high or as low as they like and, at the same time, reach an agreement about future release of Flex 4 for Scope. This should cause no harm to Assaf's intellectual rights or to the possibility to continue developing his work under the same name if he so desires.

Another option would be for Adern to lose the key registration procedure, and use some other mechanism for copy control - I'm sure it won't be as secure, but when you consider that the options are no more Flexor for us scopers, or a vst version (which will be cracked one day, you know), it doesn't seem so silly. If it runs on XITE dsp, of course.

Whatever happens, I still hope there's a way of at least having FlexIII in SCP5.

T

[xite knight]

Whatever happens, I still hope there's a way of at least having FlexIII in SCP5.

+1

[dawman]

By the time this thread reaches it's 100th post, there will probably be a statement released from SC / Adern.

It has certainly got everyone's attention by now.

BTW, as far as that polyphony restriction goes, I have certain presets from patches that allow 12 voice polyphony. Sea Synth being one of them.

With a Grand Piano in Gigastudio, 4 different Seagull SFX, an Expression Pedal and Mod Whl. tied to the Swiss Knife and Sine LFO rates, I have an astounding unique solo piano sound that is so good, if need be I will make a seperate DAW just to continue using Flexor live.


As Captain Spock Once Said........................The Needs Of The Many, Outweigh The Needs Of The Few, Or The One......................From The Wrath Of Khan, 1975.

[Mr Arkadin]

From The Wrath Of Khan, 1975.

Wow, really Jimmy, two years before Star Wars?

[HUROLURA]

The wise users should may be keep their old Scope 4.5 system with flexor and buy the Xite-1 for extra DSP power and all other plug-ins.

By the way just thinking the fee for 1 plug-in transfer is 35 € and 1 set of plug-in from 1 board to another transfer is 55 €, would this just be an important part of the 50% ?

CheerZ

[Gordon Gekko]

flexor rulez
others drool
find us some waaay
you can port-eh?

i mean portrait
at least some date
or they will miss me, and kiss me
i'm bringing down the house

flexor rulez...

how 'bout a song eh

[katano]

signed

[Mary Mungo]

I agree with the subject title

Flexor should continue to be designed to work in Scope

I use Scope sound cards. They were an expensive layout of my cash. I want applications that work on it.

If future releases of Flexor do not support my sound cards, thats well mean as I have supported Flexor since its inception.

But if the upgrade price is right, I will still tinker with it in another form. (maybe I'm a sucker but I like sound!)

I won't be leaving Scope, they are well good sound cards and an ace sound engineering platform et al and leaving would be just plain crazy after spending that money.
Scopes got me man and there's no going back.