SCOPE X-ite still VIRTUAL?

jdieks · Post by **jdieks** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:05 pm

lagoausente wrote:and to the "why should you need, convolution" or "why should you need..."

Yes, it´s true, but I ask, why should you need 140dsp?
So, it they make a exagerated machine, why not exploit it at the best? Would be ilogical, and not proportional with the power of the dsp it has.

my point was that algo reverbs, in theory, sound better then convolutions. because convolutions are samples and algos have variables in them which make them sound alive... so with enough dsp power you could make a reverb that sounds just like a real 960 in stead of beeing a sample of ONE moment of a real 960.

on the other hand it is true that convolutions atm sound better then all the cheap hardware reverbs of cource... but for instance the chorus feature on my pcm90 reverbs can't be done with convolution.. so you'll need real algos to emulate that.

but talking about other things then reverb, convutions could be good yeah

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:10 pm

hey you can use the gigastudio sofware with 500 gigabytes of samples and all their orchestral conundrum for what they are worth or build you own sts instrument drums to get precise. nobody is forcing you... but we do know xite-1/scope 5 will bring new stuff to us, like the gizmo

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:14 pm

lagoausente wrote: Well, what I don´t understand is why they use the PC RAM, since the devices that use it are working on the card, or in this case in the RACK. It seems more complicated to make things work like they actually do than to use a dedicated memory beside the chips.
I have read that on that moment could be because the ram was expensive that moment. If they leave all like it is, and continue thinking like they did in the past, there are posibilities that the same problems return (financial). Hope will not occur, but I think that the enviroment of this platform don´t like the masses needings. I respect it and understand it, but other companies think about building what the buyer want to buy.
SC could do it a little bit, at least.

Provided that the PCI-E connection works really fast and a good communication with the PC is consequent, I see some very good points for the use of PC ram:

1) Some tasks that require ram require very large amounts of it, and interaction with the CPU, using PC ram is much more effective.
2) Technology evolves and ram can get faster....a fixed amount and technology is a bad bet.
3) As the phylosophy oif the dsp cards is great, that is leave the specialized tasks to the technology that can do it better, why making things more cumbersome and complicated?
4) Most important: there is no benefit of any kind, to justify a massive rise of costs in the production of the card to have a technology on board that gets obsolete very fast, much faster than the dsp's, with the risk that at some point you don't find it anymore for replacement....

My 0,02 €

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:18 pm

please bring any doubts you might have to our attention, we will dissipate them

of course you'll have to endure a confessional wooden cabin ordeal but, ya undrestand we are a religion here heh?

Neutron · Post by **Neutron** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:40 pm

stardust wrote:
ignore on wrote:I hereby take copyright of the name xlite-1™
congrats that is better than plugiator

Chinese daleks say "extermiate! extermiate!"

kylie · Post by **kylie** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:45 pm

legros wrote:but, ya undrestand we are a religion here heh?

funny you mention it...
there was a time when pulsar geekdom levels were attached to the user profile, corresponding to the number of total posts.
I noticed that I just advanced from being a Pulsar Disciple (hear, hear!) to Guru Pulsarian this week

-greetings, markus-

Warp69 · Post by **Warp69** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:48 pm

jdieks wrote:On the other hand it is true that convolutions atm sound better then all the cheap hardware reverbs of cource... but for instance the chorus feature on my pcm90 reverbs can't be done with convolution.. so you'll need real algos to emulate that.

Just to clarity - The only algorithm in the PCM90 that use chorusing as modulation type is the Concert Hall - the other algorithms use different types of modulation.

A lot of information will be revealed tomorrow when the show is public by all the undercover agents from PlanetZ

Would it be possible to create a list of all the questions you like to get answered?

Cheers

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:49 pm

I'll Create a post in General Scope Discussion

Here it is... http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24703

jdieks · Post by **jdieks** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:28 am

Warp69 wrote:
jdieks wrote:On the other hand it is true that convolutions atm sound better then all the cheap hardware reverbs of cource... but for instance the chorus feature on my pcm90 reverbs can't be done with convolution.. so you'll need real algos to emulate that.
Just to clarity - The only algorithm in the PCM90 that use chorusing as modulation type is the Concert Hall - the other algorithms use different types of modulation.

A lot of information will be revealed tomorrow when the show is public by all the undercover agents from PlanetZ

Would it be possible to create a list of all the questions you like to get answered?

Cheers

yeah, i know... but i just wanted to make an example so he understood what could be done with real algos that's almost imposible with convolution...

although nebula claims they can do it all... havn't tested that one enough to see if it's true

nightscope · Post by **nightscope** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:49 am

Wrong thread!! Just got up.

ns

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:45 am

alfonso wrote:
lagoausente wrote: Well, what I don´t understand is why they use the PC RAM, since the devices that use it are working on the card, or in this case in the RACK. It seems more complicated to make things work like they actually do than to use a dedicated memory beside the chips.
I have read that on that moment could be because the ram was expensive that moment. If they leave all like it is, and continue thinking like they did in the past, there are posibilities that the same problems return (financial). Hope will not occur, but I think that the enviroment of this platform don´t like the masses needings. I respect it and understand it, but other companies think about building what the buyer want to buy.
SC could do it a little bit, at least.
Provided that the PCI-E connection works really fast and a good communication with the PC is consequent, I see some very good points for the use of PC ram:

1) Some tasks that require ram require very large amounts of it, and interaction with the CPU, using PC ram is much more effective.
2) Technology evolves and ram can get faster....a fixed amount and technology is a bad bet.
3) As the phylosophy oif the dsp cards is great, that is leave the specialized tasks to the technology that can do it better, why making things more cumbersome and complicated?
4) Most important: there is no benefit of any kind, to justify a massive rise of costs in the production of the card to have a technology on board that gets obsolete very fast, much faster than the dsp's, with the risk that at some point you don't find it anymore for replacement....

My 0,02 €

You have convinced me.

Legros, I know about the religion feeling. From my point of view, it would be good for the company (not necesary for the platform), so get new users coming from the Native field.
I´m safisfied with what the platform gives me, no problem about that.
But I wouln´t like to hear more the word "solv..."
So even just would be unuseful for already Scope users, I think that the platform is missing comparing with it mains competitor (Native) a modern sampler and the convolution toys. I think that specially the sampler. Even it works rock solid, and I use it always, seems to be no much attractive. Most Scope guys even use Native samplers, and you just need to have a look to the STS Talk thread, and will see that is totally dead. I think the sampling is bad exploiting have in account the advantages of dsp and low latency.
I believe that a Giga type sampler on Scope would attrack users, not only for the sampler but for the "all in one" setup.
Most people that doesn´t know if depth the platform think that Scope=synths on dsp.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:14 am

You certainly have a right to state your opinion clearly, that's what a forum is for and I respect your point of view. The product is still not perfect and there are bugs left behind, but I'm amazed at what speed SC organized itself and came up with such promising products in a year.. who knows, maybe they will address your wishes in near future, anyways, cheers man

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:34 am

legros wrote:You certainly have a right to state your opinion clearly, that's what a forum is for and I respect your point of view. The product is still not perfect and there are bugs left behind, but I'm amazed at what speed SC organized itself and came up with such promising products in a year.. who knows, maybe they will address your wishes in near future, anyways, cheers man

I was not criticizing, I try to suggest future changes. It´s not only my wishes. I think that SC will not win nothing pleasing the guys that already are happy with what the Scope does, for example with a new "synth". There are lots and lots of synths already. That will not call a new user.
Look at the Poll: http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24624

Only 12 guys would buy it now.
25 when save up (that´s a maybe)
28 when there is a cut down version. ( at least this ones would not pay the full 3,2k ).
I´m not economist, but it seems not very high numbers.
Regarding to the "religion" actitude, I have to say that in my opinion, make be far away from being objective.
All you guys just defend like if the guys who propose changes are attacking the platform. I think it´s a distorted point of view.
I think there is not much debatable that this platform to compite with Native, would must provide all the wide range of posibilities that Native already does. If we put features of both in the same league, and then put in a balance the cost/performance ratio that DSP "adds" , then platform would make musicians think about that.
But since the platform will continue in a overstated development of what already has (synths) while forgeting other posibilities considered not worth, that limits the range of potencial users.
I would like to make a question. Is technicaly posible to make the platform compatible with NAtive VSt plugins? I have read some guys asking for that out of this forum.

chriskorff · Post by **chriskorff** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:10 am

Without a full-blown Scope Sequencer, I don't really see the point...

If you consider the competition (PT HD, anyone?), you'll see that a lot of the complaints about it are that they tie your hardware to a specific bit of software, and vice versa. The unique selling point of Scope is, I think, its ability to <i>add</i> too your sequencer of choice, rather than replace it...

Granted, it replaces your audio interface (but not your sequencer!) rather than 'adding' to it, like UAD or Powercore does, but since it does so much more than they do, I think it's a fair compromise.

IMHO

Cheers!

Chris

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:42 am

If the XITE-1 has 18 chips, a PCI-E card with 6 chips would have the most power you could stash on a single computer previously ( 45 old chips ) with of course a roughly one third price ( 1 000 euros ) that should quite broaden the market !!!

The quite weak number and type of ins / outs doesn't balance what you could wire / rout / process virtually, the new gear screams for a range of plugs boxes ( hobbyist - medium - pro ) either multi whips or direct plug, I was thinking again of 8 ins + 8 outs whips of MIDI / XLR / Jacks ... etc that could replace a *lot * of hardware both in space and price ! MADI between the plugs boxes and the XITE ?

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:45 am

lagoausente wrote: I would like to make a question. Is technicaly posible to make the platform compatible with NAtive VSt plugins? I have read some guys asking for that out of this forum.

Nope - apples (buffer-based CPU instructions) vs oranges (sample-by-sample dedicated DSP processing).

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:54 am

lagao - I think a lot of the time people make quite silly suggestions which imply a lack of knowledge about the platform. Your question about VST plugins is a good example (don't take it personally). I think for someone who uses the forum regularly this is a bit annoying - it's easy to use the search function first of all, and secondly the people who post here do it out of their own time - they aren't support staff so if they're treated like a support guy (yelling, angry, wanting blood) then maybe they are going to get a little touchy.

By the way, your figures about potential sales don't include the many people who *stay the fuck off the internet*. This is generally people who are busy earning money getting real work done.

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:42 pm

stardust wrote:lagoausente you are right.

It is very often the case in here that the people are too much defending their baby.
The motives to do that are manifold.

Sober views are hard to get through.

But I still give the bonus to SC.
They made a move.
It has the potential to be a good one.

The price is justified when it is the Uebermmaschine as it can be from the currently known specs.
All of us are interested now in where the limits are.
Compatibility, roadmap, upgrade xgrade policies, use modes etc.

All this must be answered to make a final judgement.

It is as I expected. There will be the 'when it's done' and we don't know yet answers also tomorrow when there is the public day.

so this is natural in this phase.
Up to now I am still looking forward to it.

I will defend the baby aswell, out of this forum. Here I´m not trying to attack, just to suggest what I consider features that could attract new users.
It´s often that who makes enphasis of what Scope not do, instead of what do is seing like a "negative" attitude.
I agree with you that the Xite-1 opens a promising future. So that´s why I would like that after the release of Xite-1 and Scope 5, SC make an effort on some features not so well exploited like synths have been.

darkrezin, sorry, I usually use the search a lot, and often try to not make silly questions, but I confess that today didn´t. Everybody has a moment of weakness, and I was saturated of webs that moment.

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:54 pm

Finally Xite-1 has Onboard RAM!
Well, I was not so bad oriented.

Look: http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24714

Post by **hubird** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:04 pm

ah...you used the search function

guys we must admit, we are close to a nervous breakdown, deep crises are followed by unexpected or sincere apologies, and everyone feels he's thrown on his own.
We are lost, and there's still half a day to go.
Only Nestor can save us yet with an überpositive speech