SCOPE X-ite still VIRTUAL?

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astroman
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Post by astroman »

you're correct that it has to be confirmed officially...
but then it would be the most strange decision to not take advantage of the multiple-connectivity-feature ;)
it is an invaluable advantage (in critical situations) that you could have a backup machine ready to boot in the rack, if for some obsure reason your main OS disk crashes.
unplug-replug-boot :D

cheers, Tom
moxi
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Post by moxi »

moxi wrote:
Quote:
Wow, you've already got an Xite then moxi? Didn't know anyone had used it long enough to know that it STILL crashes.


that was a question.. the little "?" indicates that...


Yes, but how can you say something STILL crashes when no-one's tried the final version yet? That was my point.
again, that was a question...as now the box exist, I suppose it's not so difficult to test such a thing, as it's not difficult to mesure the S/N ratio, the Harm. distortion and so on, (the price let suggest it's a pro gear, so that is something usual to do).. nor to communicate about that.

or all is theorical, so when SC say it's 10 times the 14DSPs power inside, does this is theorical?

do they go to the music messe to present a new product or a new conceptual thing?

I suppose the dev know how are defined midi buffer and other technical things like that.

even if I have been disappointed by the last update of this stuff, I'm pretty interrested in this new one, so I have to know more about, that's my point, dude..and from my side I don't plane just to use it to emulate a complexe hall loading 45 masterverb...
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Mr Arkadin
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Post by Mr Arkadin »

OK moxi i think i'll leave it there - it's an English point i was making. The word STILL implies that the Xite has a previous history of crashing. The Xite has no previous history of anything yet, that was my point.
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kylie
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Post by kylie »

astroman wrote:you're correct that it has to be confirmed officially...
but then it would be the most strange decision to not take advantage of the multiple-connectivity-feature ;)
although that is another suggestion what they'd better should do or not, I still second that in this case :)
it is an invaluable advantage (in critical situations) that you could have a backup machine ready to boot in the rack, if for some obsure reason your main OS disk crashes.
unplug-replug-boot :D
that would be another but nevertheless important reason.
--
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
jdieks
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Post by jdieks »

lagoausente wrote:
voidar wrote:
lagoausente wrote: With such power, and cost, logical would be to can access to make convolution for it, and have no limit for the pci bandwith before the own dsp limit.
why would you want convolutions if you can remake the original algo's with enough power?

convolutions are static... real algo's arn't.
voidar
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Post by voidar »

I.m.o. convulutions are more hype than practical. I'd rather use a high-quality reverb algo. Even for "real" spaces.
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next to nothing
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Post by next to nothing »

I hereby take copyright of the name xlite-1™ ;)
lagoausente
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Post by lagoausente »

jdieks wrote:
lagoausente wrote:
voidar wrote: why would you want convolutions if you can remake the original algo's with enough power?

convolutions are static... real algo's arn't.
Static is relative, don´t you think? Since you can load any impulse in a convolution soft it opens a wide range of posibilities, not only reverb, but also impulses from a guitar amp cabinet, a hardware compressor, or anything you like. The good point is that there is a lot of impulses out there of many spaces, devices etc etc, and most free, and even you can make your own impulses and share it. So from this point of view is not very static, otherwise it´s very open.
I haver read that native convolution soft sounds worse than some dedicated hardware out there. Why not exploit all the posbilities? It´s a nice dsp hardware very promising. Many guys don´t need such power, don´t need many things, true, but since this devices it´s not finally developed yet I think it´s time to SC can tune it in the best direction.
Today, RAM is no so expensive, and maybe in the future SC may want to develop a sampler that can load big Gigs, that would attract many guys.
The Xite-1 has near all the posibilities of a pro Studio in a little 1u rack, so why not put there "all them" ? Giga, Synths, mixing, convolution, routing... just all.
That would be the best marketing avaible, and if Xite-1 could do on DSP all a computer can do on Native, there would be much reasons to go from Native to Xite-1, and no reason to not go (more if they sell a lower price version).
Since my point of view, it´s better to develop without any knock bottle, and time will tell if finally exploit all or not, but the best is that there is no "but" at all.
In the other hand, I have seen some photos of the first Pulsar card prototyes in a thread some week ago. Some of those prototypes had RAM slot. So they have already done it! , and so they know how to develop it and make it work, and so why not put 2 or 3 of this slots. They could sell it without the RAM, as an option of upgrade, so the cost would be the same, and if anybody or the future make the needing of them, who wants, just buy some RAM at put it on the slots. Why not?
I have no knowledge about the posibilities that brings the chips own memory so can´t tell, but anyway the RAM would be a good point for loading GIGs in the future. It seems not very logical such amount of data traveling to and from the PC, just because using the RAM on the PC.
And in the other hand, you may want the PC ram free for any other uses.
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Post by lagoausente »

and to the "why should you need, convolution" or "why should you need..."

Yes, it´s true, but I ask, why should you need 140dsp?
So, it they make a exagerated machine, why not exploit it at the best? Would be ilogical, and not proportional with the power of the dsp it has.
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Post by moxi »

The word STILL implies that the Xite has a previous history of crashing. The Xite has no previous history of anything yet, that was my point.
I agrre, I choiced the wrong english world, I was reffering to the old hardware, I'm sure none will be confused..
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Post by petal »

voidar wrote:I.m.o. convulutions are more hype than practical. I'd rather use a high-quality reverb algo. Even for "real" spaces.
That's a very one sided view of the possibilies in convolution. Other uses than putting a guitar into a lush room can be done with convolultion.
Convolution is very good at doing special effects by matching odd impulses with samples.
You see, it's not all about high end sound, it's just as much about creating new sounds.

Cheers!
Thomas
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

lagoausente wrote: ...Today, RAM is no so expensive, ...
the chips are el cheapo, as usual it's the man power driving costs up.
Someone has to write the code handling the local memory versus external while maintaining 100% compatibility with existing stuff.
There aren't so many unemployed dudes experienced on that level of coding who are waiting on exactly that job offer... :P :D
...The Xite-1 has near all the posibilities of a pro Studio in a little 1u rack, so why not put there "all them" ? Giga, Synths, mixing, convolution, routing... just all.
That would be the best marketing avaible, ...
you cannot sell possibilities anymore today - maybe 15 years ago it was a catching buzzword.
There have been experiences, meanwhile...
People investing that amount expect a job or functionality fullfilled.
when investment versus functionality balances - they will buy it, at almost any rate, if it's presented in a convincing way. ;)
a couple of new synths is a nice bonus, but in not really an essential part - functionality is... :D
..., but anyway the RAM would be a good point for loading GIGs in the future. ...
just in case it's already forgotten, giga was designed to barely need any Ram at all. ;)
The original only requires a significant amount of physical memory if an enormous number of samples must be handled, as in those hyper orchestral libs.
to convert giga stuff to static is a piece mental deafness imho, but that's just me...

cheers, Tom
lagoausente
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Post by lagoausente »

to convert giga stuff to static
What do you mean with "static"?
I know that Giga loads from hard disk, and GSIF has no drops, but has bigger latency then STS, of course not too high to canno play ok, but higher.
Xite-1 with the laptop conection would be a good replacement of the most modern AKAI hardware samplers. Compatibility with giga libraries would open another source of posible buyers.

is a piece mental deafness imho, but that's just me...
I do not use Synths, but that´s me.
Many guys here don´t use STS, but I do.
Many guys here don´t see convolution interesting, but there are lots of guys that do.
There are Scope fanatic users that use Gigastudio (instead of Scope STS).
There are Gigastudio users that could be interested on a Giga dsp based workstation.
There are AKAi hardware sampler users that like stabiliby of their machines, but miss the big libraries.
etc, etc etc.
I mean, it doesn´t matter a lot what you, he, or me likes or see as useful. What matter, from my point of view, is to embrace diferent user needings.
I understand the dificulty of the compatibilty of PC RAM vs onboard RAM.
But would not be avaible for new devices that could work only on the onboard RAM? Like a new sampler or a convolution host coded to be used with that RAM?
Or why not just use "only" the onboard RAM for any Scope needing...
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Post by lagoausente »

http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=336 (loads VST plugins like the convolution Reverb IR1). As told before, the posibilities of convolution are very high, not only reverbs.


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jul02/a ... akaiz8.asp
This already does with STS, but Z4 has onboard ram and no "pci bandwith issues".

http://www.tascam.com/products/gigastud ... 55,18.html
Giga libraries have become a standard today.


things that Xite-1 could do, what I think would make the platform more attractive to the guys that are not on it yet.

I don´t imagine a guy that could not be tempted on running all that, moreover all sofware that already exist in the platform on the slim 1u nice http://www.sonic-core.net/en/home/xite.html
Last edited by lagoausente on Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fluxpod
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Post by Fluxpod »

lagoausente wrote:http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=336

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jul02/a ... akaiz8.asp

Two things that Xite-1 could do, what I think would make the platform more attractive to the guys that are not on it yet.
Ähhm..have you ever used a waves apa? I did...wasnt impressed.I own the platinum bundle and the api bundle...the apa is a piece of junk to be honest.
If you want an akai z8 >e-bay they are dirt cheap.
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Post by lagoausente »

Fluxpod wrote:
lagoausente wrote:http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=336

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jul02/a ... akaiz8.asp

Two things that Xite-1 could do, what I think would make the platform more attractive to the guys that are not on it yet.
Ähhm..have you ever used a waves apa? I did...wasnt impressed.I own the platinum bundle and the api bundle...the apa is a piece of junk to be honest.
If you want an akai z8 >e-bay they are dirt cheap.
Sorry, I was editing.
I never have used the waves at all, and probably will not buy the Xite. For now it just the same as before plus more dsp, nothing new, and too much for my budget.
My coments are not for myself, or at least not in the near future. I have to say that most comments here seem to be a little self-centered, so anybody tells about some features of desirable or not considering their own needings.
So, just understand my point. I just consider that SC will not take new users since will not offer nothing new. Just my point of view.
I don´t need an akai, but there are guys that have bought them, who could buy the Xite.
I don´t need the WAves, but there are guys that have bought them and could like the Xite, the same for Receptor, etc etc.
Call me negative, but I suspect that the enviroment of the platform is quite conservative. If you think it coldly, only already Scope users would need more DSP, and only a part of them, so if financial problems came in the past, I don´t see much reason of change. Most guys claim they have enough with 45 dsp.
So I don´t understand you guys, really. When someone claims for posible things to change, that Native enviroments has, and Scope not, everybody tells "bahh, that´s not interesting".
Well, maybe for most users already in Scope, who based most of their own production on synths. But there are more world out there.
Just for putting the example of the user Scope4live. He uses Gigastudio4 because of the libraries and the realism of some piano gigs. Well, it´s not important because he issues Scope anyway for synths, but there are many other guys out there who use Gigastudio and convolution a lot, and don´t need synths at first, but could find interesing if have a gig sampler, convolution plus the mixing, routing studio setup.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by moxi »

..so no one know more about the beast, even after the musikmesse showcase..?
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

lagoausente wrote:
to convert giga stuff to static
What do you mean with "static"?
...
is a piece mental deafness imho, but that's just me...
...
I understand the dificulty of the compatibilty of PC RAM vs onboard RAM.
But would not be avaible for new devices that could work only on the onboard RAM? Like a new sampler or a convolution host coded to be used with that RAM? ...
well, to divide my quote into 2 statements doesn't leave much of it's content... ;)
Samples in the Giga format are divided into attack and sustain parts, so they can be played from a small disk buffer. An efficient solution.
To convert them into a single program that's loaded into memory is a stupid approach - imho. Use Giga if you want to use those libs. Period.

if Scope4Live uses that stuff because it fit's his taste, then it's perfectly ok.
But it's not for realism sake, at least regarding the piano.
We may completely disagree about that specific item, no problem.
Instead of a 2 DVD monster piano I bet a GEM Realpiano expander for $500 beats it hands down in that domain, and that thingy has probably no more than a 128 MB sample set onboard.
We may discuss it in a separate topic (if there's any need) to not distract this one too far from it's Scope context.

the major use of Giga libs is postproduction in film scoring or orchestration, where the 'no latency' aspect is almost meaningless.

imho the (quite common) method to convert Giga libs to other formats is a misjudgement of quality in relation to size. People expect 'better' samples, because the data set is larger, which is plain nonsense.
As an experienced sampler user you know that the quality of a program hasn't much to do with it's size ;)

At least there's still a serious amount of work to be done in the domain of convolution based processing - and I'm not too convinced by that Italian product of which I just can't remember the name, but you probably know what I mean - the plugin that comes in a 'free' and a commercial variant.

I can't even tell if convolution can take advantage of (hardware) DSP based processing at all - I simply lack the math insights - but for shure you cannot make a not even fully released product dependening on something that 'might' work in the future.
Audio is a pretty slow type of signal anyway - if they can handle > 50 masterverbs over the PCI-e bus, there may indeed be few reason for doing it onboard.

cheers, Tom
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Post by Gordon Gekko »

c'mon astro, just get your ass down to the frankfurt mess and tell us more about it :D they are playing the 'lets retain information for fun' game. I say fuck them, they are the best, noone denies it (except maybe braincell, but thats irrelevant), they have the components sitting on a plastic test board beside the computer?? I want to know!!... just go there and don't tell them you are astroman from planetz; GO THERE ANONYMOUS tell them you just bumped into their booth and that you are james bond or the saint or something.. just snatch as much information as you can and become our most valuate underground informer!! and if you hafta, post back using a proxy as a newbie here

yes thats what I would do if I lived near frankfurt (only I would post as legros but thats also irrelevant)... do you give a fuck?
lagoausente
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Post by lagoausente »

well, to divide my quote into 2 statements doesn't leave much of it's content...
Sorry, I supposed that anyone would read your whole post before, but I agree that the best it´s to quote the whole content.
Samples in the Giga format are divided into attack and sustain parts, so they can be played from a small disk buffer. An efficient solution.
To convert them into a single program that's loaded into memory is a stupid approach - imho. Use Giga if you want to use those libs. Period.
Interesting, Halion also loads the first part of each sample "preload to ram", that seems the same method. The "preload to ram" can be adjusted to the user like. Maybe would be a good solution for the STS memory limit bug.
if Scope4Live uses that stuff because it fit's his taste, then it's perfectly ok.
But it's not for realism sake, at least regarding the piano.
We may completely disagree about that specific item, no problem.
Instead of a 2 DVD monster piano I bet a GEM Realpiano expander for $500 beats it hands down in that domain, and that thingy has probably no more than a 128 MB sample set onboard.
Well, I have no idea about how sounds GEM, but in the best case, it´s another big piece of hardware. If those 128mb sounds so fantastic, I would like to have that on my STS-4000, be sure.

mho the (quite common) method to convert Giga libs to other formats is a misjudgement of quality in relation to size. People expect 'better' samples, because the data set is larger, which is plain nonsense.
As an experienced sampler user you know that the quality of a program hasn't much to do with it's size
I´m not an experienced sampler user at all. In fact I think that most users don´t have idea of how to get a good sounding program with low size. what a musician wants is to make music, not to make good sampler programs. So it´s more practical to be in the format that allow you work with diferent libraries, just load and play.
Well, I suspect what you are thinking at this point. Most people is lazy and ignorant on this purposes, but what´s better, sell to ignorants? or bankrupty with computer nerds? Do you understand me?
I don´t want to be negative, but be realistic, Xite-1 don´t offer nothing new, just more dsp power, that will not attract new users.
I understand your point, but the market is where it is, even most things are not the most logical, like big size libraries, that´s what people think, and you will not convence them to buy a Xite to run an STS with a 128mb piano.
Moreover, the power of the Xite-1 it´s simply as exagerated as the 2DVD for a piano, and you must agree that can be made better music a guy that knows how to with a 14 dsp, than a guy that doesn´t know with a Xite. But the fact is that people pay for 140dsp, and most for using 2DVD pianos.
I can't even tell if convolution can take advantage of (hardware) DSP based processing at all - I simply lack the math insights - but for shure you cannot make a not even fully released product dependening on something that 'might' work in the future.
Audio is a pretty slow type of signal anyway - if they can handle > 50 masterverbs over the PCI-e bus, there may indeed be few reason for doing it onboard.
I don´t think that giga and convolution are things for the future. Are things that are used a lot just now, independently they are a good or not choice from a technical point of view.
Audio is a pretty slow type of signal anyway - if they can handle > 50 masterverbs over the PCI-e bus, there may indeed be few reason for doing it onboard.
Well, what I don´t understand is why they use the PC RAM, since the devices that use it are working on the card, or in this case in the RACK. It seems more complicated to make things work like they actually do than to use a dedicated memory beside the chips.
I have read that on that moment could be because the ram was expensive that moment. If they leave all like it is, and continue thinking like they did in the past, there are posibilities that the same problems return (financial). Hope will not occur, but I think that the enviroment of this platform don´t like the masses needings. I respect it and understand it, but other companies think about building what the buyer want to buy.
SC could do it a little bit, at least.
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