wolf audio design - 32 Channel Mixer available

[wolf]

Hi,

as you may have read in the off topic forum, the 32 channel mixer is now finally available.

Basically it comes with the very same features as the 16 Channel Mixer, so please have a look here for more information :
http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23075
or here :
http://www.worldless.com/sfp/mixer.html

There are some small differences though:
- two additional buttons to switch between the channels 1-16 and 17-32
- adapted MackieControl / Midi support for the additional channels
-> four banks, this way you i.e. can view at channel 1-16 while controling channel 17-24 or 25-32 via the control unit. The selected bank is shown on the surface.

Internally I had to change a little bit more to assure usability.
Unlike with the 16ChannelMixer where two boards are recommended, at least two boards are now a requirement to use the additional channels.
For more details see here :
http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23702

Global presets are fully exchangable between both versions (of course just the master section and channel 1-16).
Channel & midi assignment presets are shared between both devices.

An upgrade for 16ChannelMixer owners is available for 30,- Eur and can be aquired here :
https://secure.shareit.com/shareit/chec ... 22366%5D=1
Both mixers are available for 129,- Eur and can be bought here :
https://secure.shareit.com/shareit/chec ... 02971%5D=1

Thanks,
Wolfgang

---

of course a pic to show it off is needed too :

[darkrezin]

OK I may finally have to bite, this looks amazing.

Is there a demo of the 32-channel yet wolf? I need to try it with a crappy BCF I have lying around and also see how much DSP it uses compared to the 24-channel STM.

What are the limitations of the demo? Beep every 10 secs or something?

Also am I right in thinking this has stereo aux sends? If so, that's totally kick-ass. I guess I should really go and RTFM.

[wolf]

Is there a demo of the 32-channel yet wolf?

There is one for the 16 Channel Mixer, which should suffice for demo purposes :
http://homepage.mac.com/wrueter/dev/16ChaMixer_demo.zip

What are the limitations of the demo? Beep every 10 secs or something?

a beep .. haha .. how nasty
No .. it's muting for about 5-10 seconds every 1-2 minutes.
Enough to mix an ad jingle ..

Also am I right in thinking this has stereo aux sends?

yep, full stereo through all pathes. And you can mix mono and stereo fx in one channel.

Thanks,
Wolfgang

[musurgio]

Dear Wolf,
Based on the sound of your plugins I am sure that you can come up with a killer analog tape emulator.
Something that can emulate a 30 ips 15 ips 7.5 ips tape with satuartion compression and noise perhaps !!
Not tube emulation, true tape is needed !!
Regards,
Dimitrios

[dawman]

I gotta hear that.

I still prefer the sound of tape over everything else. It's so evident especially when overdriven sounds are recorded, they just buzz. Who ever heard of clean distortion anyway, it should be dirty and grimy.

Mackie Control puts this mixer in another class actually. ProTools is losing more ground by the month here lately.

Great Work Wolfman Rueter.

[darkrezin]

wolf - thanks for the info

Can I assume the 32-channel simply takes double the DSP of the 16?

musurgio - maybe try not to hijack wolfie's mixer thread with the tape stuff

[wolf]

Can I assume the 32-channel simply takes double the DSP of the 16?

sort of .. parts of the master channel and aux/bus section weren't doubled, so it's a little bit less than twice the dsp if everything is enabled.

musurgio - maybe try not to hijack wolfie's mixer thread with the tape stuff

Well .. if it comes with a bunch of compliments at least I have no problem with it
Tape emu .. mmh .. it's 15 years ago I learned about tape heads .. some kind of hysteresis compression, if I remember correct. I think SoftClip with very gentle settings (~5) is already able to deliver this. Doesn't flexor include a tape drive, btw ?
I'm more into combining old & new techniques, i.e. right now I'm experimenting with beat-frequency oscillators .. an old radio transmitting technique and also used in the ondes martenot/theremin.

[dawman]

Just got it thanks.

Mackie and Modular.....................wow.

And people wonder why I like 3rd party mixers.

The fact that mixers like this eat DSP's is a testament to the other levels of power attained.

I will have fun playing w/ this.

Is there a good quality surface that supports the Mackie protocol that anyone can suggest.

[Tau]

I have a Radikal SAC-2k :

http://www.radikaltechnologies.com/Prod ... 2_2_0.html

It looks stunning, but it's maybe more suited for a mixing studio than for a live rig...

A smaller, but tough unit, the Bitstream 3X includes a Mackie emulation mode, but no motor faders: http://www.waveidea.com/

Both work well with wolf's mixer, as I have tried it myself. And wolf's mixer works well with both.

I think the Behringer BCF things also "do" Mackie, and there was also a nice one from M-audio. Then, of course the Mackies themselves, the Digidesigns...

probably many more...

[dawman]

No need for live, recording only.

That was the one I was trying to remember.

Thanks Brotha' Man Tau.

[ChampionSound]

Wow, finally a scope mixer with mackie control and stereo auxes!
This is definately my next device to buy, after saving up for a Mackie Control Universal Pro in the coming months. [thumbs up]

[Funky r]

This device is great, I both the 32 channel mixer.
But I think it can be much better. In fact, it will be great if they are direct out. If you are in mono mode you can insert mono plug, and that the device have for example in1 in place than in1L & in1R. And if you can drop plug. When I want to drop plug in it the mixer disapear. But it 's a great device. But if you can do this modification i think it was one of the best mixer for scope. Chears and good luck for future.

[wolf]

This device is great, I both the 32 channel mixer.

thanks

But I think it can be much better. In fact, it will be great if they are direct out.

well, I found no possibility to hide the outputs (like the STM series is able to). So there would be lots of usually unused outputs, which clutter up overview and make the device too big to fit a 1280x1024 resolution. Because of this I decided to sacrify direct outs, but also because we never used them here the last years.
Depending on how many direct outs you need you could misuse a bus or an aux, as these come with separate outputs.

If you are in mono mode you can insert mono plug

Maybe you meant "can't" ?
You can even mix mono & stereo inserts in one channel !
Just open the channel settings, where you specify the order of the plugins. There's a mono/stereo switch, too.

and that the device have for example in1 in place than in1L & in1R.

Same as above: I cannot hide inputs as well in a dynamic way.

And if you can drop plug. When I want to drop plug in it the mixer disapear.

That's strange .. you're the only one so far with this issue. I'll have a look.

But it 's a great device. But if you can do this modification i think it was one of the best mixer for scope.

At least the mono&stero issue should be clear now

kind regards,
Wolfgang

[Funky r]

Thanks a lot, I will look that .

[irrelevance]

I could certainly use the other 16 channels! But at 27 DSP i'm not sure if OI could run it?
Wolf's mixer is now the beating heart of the studio

[bcslaam]

This looks great wolf!

You mention 32bit integer signal path...is the scope 4896 mixer less bits? Are you able in increase to 48bit or 80bit to compete with Metric Halo, ProTools etc?

Are you going to do a 48 channel version? I sum completely in scope; 7x adats plus large internal gigastudio projects.

Your demo download link doesn't work, I couldn't test the mixer, so...

I cant see how busses work. Am I able to...say, assign drums to their own bus plus assign them directly to the mix, compress the drum buss independently and blend it with the main mix again like you can with 4896. I wouldn't want to use up all my aux sends as busses, is there another option?

One thing you cant do on the 4896 is quickly move ALL faders as a group when levels creep up. You have to assign fader group# for every channel, move them and take them all off the group again. Is there a way of doing this on your mixer?

Cheers
Ben Chase

[wolf]

You mention 32bit integer signal path...is the scope 4896 mixer less bits?

No, but the STM series hasn't adjustable headroom (it's fixed at -24 dbB afaik). The more headroom the less bit depth in mixdown.

Are you able in increase to 48bit or 80bit to compete with Metric Halo, ProTools etc?

This needs to be supported by the scope system -> SonicCore.
Beside I consider an audio interface claiming to do 48bit bithdepth pure nonsense. There's no converter out there right now which can do 32bit, most can't do even 24bit although they claim it.
For mixdown inside a mixer it is shurely a different thing .. although I think 32bit is already very, very sufficient even for classic recordings (or other musical material, which uses a big dynamic range).

Are you going to do a 48 channel version? I sum completely in scope; 7x adats plus large internal gigastudio projects.

uhm, no .. 32 channels are already quite challenging, if you wanna use additional fx beside mixing.
If it's only about summing some parts without aux-interaction, you could use the great routing possibilities scope offers and use a submixer

Your demo download link doesn't work, I couldn't test the mixer, so...

There's only the 16Channel version available as demo :
http://homepage.mac.com/wrueter/dev/16ChaMixer_demo.zip

I cant see how busses work. Am I able to...say, assign drums to their own bus plus assign them directly to the mix, compress the drum buss independently and blend it with the main mix again like you can with 4896. I wouldn't want to use up all my aux sends as busses, is there another option?

yeah, the above is possible (beside other routings).

One thing you cant do on the 4896 is quickly move ALL faders as a group when levels creep up. You have to assign fader group# for every channel, move them and take them all off the group again. Is there a way of doing this on your mixer?

This would require multi-selection via mouse click on a surface. Unfortunately multiselect via mouse only works in the routing window, but not on a surface.
However if it's just about lowering levels of all channels, the headroom comes into the game -> just lower it for the amount needed

I could certainly use the other 16 channels! But at 27 DSP i'm not sure if OI could run it?

Try the 16ChannelMixer demo and load it twice, this nearly corresponds to the dsp usage of the 32 channel mixer.

thanks,
Wolfgang

[bcslaam]

Thanks wolf,
I shouldn't have said data path. What I meant was internal calculation bit depth. Within the device itself. Similar to the same concept of the minimax upsampling internally....not possible? If it was, surely it would improve the sound of a busy mix. Everyone seems to be talking about summing at the moment. It seems to be a big selling point of the higher end DSP systems. It cant all be just hype, surely there's some truth in it.

About the moving of all faders at once easily. This could be done with more comprehensive grouping than the 4896. Like in protools you could have multiple grouping and you could disable the group with a master switch. Even without multiple group assignments, if we could enable disable a group with one switch instead of having to individually assign all the time this would solve it.

Anyway thanks to your quick response by email I have downloaded the 16trk demo a will be trying it soon.

Cheers
Ben

[wolf]

Hi & sorry for the late answer.

I shouldn't have said data path. What I meant was internal calculation bit depth. Within the device itself.

yeah, that was what I was refering to as well.
But you also mentioned Metric Halo, which is an audio interface. In fact the whole path needs to be taken into account as well.

Everyone seems to be talking about summing at the moment. It seems to be a big selling point of the higher end DSP systems. It cant all be just hype, surely there's some truth in it.

Well, as already said in my opinion 32bit integer is already very sufficient for material even with high dynamics.
You can see this from different views angles.
For one the technical:
32bit integer resolution means ~184 dB theoretical system dynamic, the input signal has a maximum of ~104 dB dynamic range (due to the converter limit). Adding two signals with the same (hot) level will add 6 dB. There'll be lots of high power input signals needed to fill up the residing range of ~80 dB. Even if you have a headroom of 24dB (thus lowering system dynamic to ~160 dB), there are still 54dB range left for the most silent signals.
To make a relation to tape recording systems: these usually have a system dynamic of ~54 dB.

Another point of view beside the max. dynamic range is the one fom the mixing side :
You do not only want to avoid clipping, when mixing loud signals. Also quiet signals should blend into each other nicely without quantisation errors. On digital systems the upper range limit is always zero dB. Given the numbers above and the fact that even most trained musicians use a max. dynamic range of ~100dB, there's still lots of room left for quiet signals - even if you add headroom internally.

Shurely when mixing signals together you'll need to take care about your levels, this need isn't removed when using higher bit resolutions. You just can relax more because the need to "squeeze" loud and quiet signals into a narrow dynamic range is more and more removed with raising bit resolution. However the "relax" factor of 32bit integer is already very high imo

FInally the content of the material is very important. The used dynamic range in popular music became less and less the last 60+ years. Halligalli-House or Kirmes-Techno might even get along with 8bit resolution, let alone ringtones
And as long as consumer electronics - the final target - doesn't go 32bit, there won't be a need to raise bit resolution, imo.

cheers,
Wolfgang

[dawman]

I would really appreciate a project window pic of one of your projects w/ some Modular stuff attached, as well as some explanations on their uses.

I am starting to record with Reaper in this virtual world of ours and eventually would like to incorporate some of your ideas.

I look forward to using Scope just to mix audio tracks of Scope synths, hardware analog, guitar and vocals.

It seems that I could use tons of plugs w/ the 3 x card Pro DAW.


Thanks In Advance,