Some basic general questions about scope

the19thbear · Post by **the19thbear** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:11 am

eliam wrote:
I have a luna box, it's very useful but don't expect great conversion. This is fair conversion, but compared to my lucid unit the luna box is blurry and noisy. It's night and day. The box is not a big improvement over the on board converters. If you want serious conversion, buy 2-4 channels of the last generation of converters, like echo, tc konnekt or something like that. Things evolve at each generation and prices drop as quality rises, generally.
end quote:

is there any difference in converters on the ultra and luna boxes?? I didnt know that they werent that good. hmmm... i'm gonna keep my ears open!

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:17 am

well, that's a source of frequent confusion

there is a 16 channel converter called A16 with Adat only connection (no Z-Link aka IEEE1394) with 18 bit converters (afaik) using the most significant 16 bits.
and the A16 Ultra with additional Z-Link, which is the successor of the previous box and features 24bit converters.

the original A16 is still pretty sought for it's special sound, but of course it starts sufferering from age today if the unit was on as the typical studio workhorse it used to be. $200 is a fair price for that box - I've seen them for upto 400 Euro on eBay

cheers, Tom

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:20 am

the19thbear wrote:...is there any difference in converters on the ultra and luna boxes?? I didnt know that they werent that good. hmmm... i'm gonna keep my ears open!

I remember something was mentioned about the exceptional clock quality of the Lucid devices and (possibly) an improved analog stage...
afaik the converters in the Creamware/SonicCore boxes are the same as onboard

cheers, Tom

Mike Goodwin · Post by **Mike Goodwin** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:22 am

I am very happy with my Firestudio, it sounds very good and I will just use it to do my conversion. I assume that Scope being what it is in the way of routing sound it will not be an issue bypassing the audio outs on the Pulsar2 card and going straight to the firestudio

Ben Walker · Post by **Ben Walker** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:01 am

Ben Walker wrote: The list of cwmodular modules on that page is woefully out of date

I've now brought the cwmodular module listing up to date. Enough to make your mouth water?

Ben

bill3107 · Post by **bill3107** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:33 am

damn it is time i enter the modular world .... great website ! I tend to prefer the COS/VOID philosophy to get the sound but your website gives a very comprehensive and simple information. Thanks !

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:40 am

Mike Goodwin wrote:I am very happy with my Firestudio, it sounds very good and I will just use it to do my conversion. I assume that Scope being what it is in the way of routing sound it will not be an issue bypassing the audio outs on the Pulsar2 card and going straight to the firestudio

If the Firestudio got ADAT, and your Pulsar II does as well, i guess you're home free. You wont be able to route it via firewire, and even if your pulsar has an out/inlet which looks like a firewire connection, DONT try using it for anything else than an A16/A16 Ultra!!!

Post by **garyb** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:48 am

you can't just bypass the audio outs if the card is being used for asio, and there's no way for scope to connect with the firestudio directly inside the computer, it just the way computers are made. scope can access it's drivers, but not another interface's, since a driver connects between hardware and software, not hardware to hardware. the firestudio CAN connect via the external analog, s/pdif-aes/ebu, or adat connectors. an A16 and the scope card will be an improvement over the firestudio and be less convoluted to operate than two interfaces at the same time, however. there's nothing spectacular about the firestudio, anyway(not that it's not a good product, it's very good, just not amazingly outstanding), so i suggest selling it to help finance the transition(you can always keep using it right up till it sells).....

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:30 am

would that go for both non-ultra and ultra, sound quality wise? i mean, its different converters or am i wrong?

Mike Goodwin · Post by **Mike Goodwin** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:40 am

garyb wrote:you can't just bypass the audio outs if the card is being used for asio, and there's no way for scope to connect with the firestudio directly inside the computer, it just the way computers are made. scope can access it's drivers, but not another interface's, since a driver connects between hardware and software, not hardware to hardware. the firestudio CAN connect via the external analog, s/pdif-aes/ebu, or adat connectors. an A16 and the scope card will be an improvement over the firestudio and be less convoluted to operate than two interfaces at the same time, however. there's nothing spectacular about the firestudio, anyway(not that it's not a good product, it's very good, just not amazingly outstanding), so i suggest selling it to help finance the transition(you can always keep using it right up till it sells).....

Dam that is a problem. As for the Firestudio, what are you basing your opinion on? It is working with the same internal clock as the Konnekt products from T.C. very low jitter. I have talked with people that have worked with it and RME and said that there is little difference. That ranks pretty high in my books. It may not be as tight as RME or Lynx but I think it would most likely beat out tech that is many years old. I don't know though as I have never listened to the a16. Eliam was saying things like blurry to describe the conversion. That did not exactly get me excited. I may just pick it up anyway for ease of use at the price I can get it for.

Post by **garyb** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:50 am

blurry was the description of the luna box and that was compared to lucent, a 2channel converter that cost more than any of these other boxes.

i base my opinion on my experience in a shop that sells used gear, i've heard a LOT of gear. the newer converters are NOT better or worse than old ones, although the newer converters that are cheap are generally of much higher quality than older models that are cheap. the high-end has not necessarily gotten any better.

as to clock, it'd better be low jitter. the clock in the firestudio is low jitter like almost every other good interface. in fact, if you look inside these boxes, you'll find the same chips in most of them. it is not apogee, neither is rme. none of the clocks in these "prosumer" converters are going to rival a mater clock that costs more than the entire converter itself, bnc is always going to be better and most people can't tell the difference.....ad men can say whatever they want.

also, fwiw, as i said, i've sold 5 or 6 A16s to Bose Corporation, specifically based on quality. every couple of months, they buy another, because they work. the Sonic Core devices are at least even with everything else in the market that is anywhere near comparable in price, and some might say better than most. again, i point out the movie "gladiator"(made in what this world considers ages ago). go rent it, the audio was done in scope before many of the best devices were even developed. listen to it and tell me that that's not good enough.

scope is "mature", but it is not "old". it's not tubes or anything. real gear never goes out of style.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:53 pm

Mike Goodwin wrote:... I don't know though as I have never listened to the a16...

here's a handful of stuff from the music section made by Wayne
he uses an old A16 for all analog stuff, i.e a lot of acoustic instruments and Bass
imho it pictures perfectly why people love this unit

Sometimes, crab & turtle, Timewasting, Little Martin, banjo & microtonic, some tuba & banjo

sorry, didn't cross-check the files
something survived on my disk, it's only the first half of the track
I'm sure Wayne doesn't mind me post it here temporarily

cheers, Tom

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:17 pm

.deleted

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:02 pm

Actually the Lucid box which I have is the 2488, with 8 i-o, which I paid 1000$, compared to the luna box (250$), both used. The sound is pretty proportional with the price. I've never heard the A16-whatever version- but my impression is that they are much better, plus they have balanced inputs (as far as I know), so they must be much less noisy than the luna box.

Mike Goodwin · Post by **Mike Goodwin** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:16 pm

garyb wrote:blurry was the description of the luna box and that was compared to lucent, a 2channel converter that cost more than any of these other boxes.

i base my opinion on my experience in a shop that sells used gear, i've heard a LOT of gear. the newer converters are NOT better or worse than old ones, although the newer converters that are cheap are generally of much higher quality than older models that are cheap. the high-end has not necessarily gotten any better.

as to clock, it'd better be low jitter. the clock in the firestudio is low jitter like almost every other good interface. in fact, if you look inside these boxes, you'll find the same chips in most of them. it is not apogee, neither is rme. none of the clocks in these "prosumer" converters are going to rival a mater clock that costs more than the entire converter itself, bnc is always going to be better and most people can't tell the difference.....ad men can say whatever they want.

also, fwiw, as i said, i've sold 5 or 6 A16s to Bose Corporation, specifically based on quality. every couple of months, they buy another, because they work. the Sonic Core devices are at least even with everything else in the market that is anywhere near comparable in price, and some might say better than most. again, i point out the movie "gladiator"(made in what this world considers ages ago). go rent it, the audio was done in scope before many of the best devices were even developed. listen to it and tell me that that's not good enough.

scope is "mature", but it is not "old". it's not tubes or anything. real gear never goes out of style.

That is all very fair. I take what your saying to hart. I work full time in Canada's largest music store and deal with audio interfaces all day every day so I hear pretty much what ever comes through the door. Are you saying that movies are being recorded through the A16 converters? Regardless I am thinking that I will buy it after all, your stand point is pretty accurate I think and has pushed me in that direction. Very good gear is always really good gear. Bottom line. I am thinking that for the price of $200 bucks I will sell off my Nord Micromodular as I have a feeling that I am not going to be needing it that much with a scope card in the studio

Post by **garyb** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:23 pm

actually, Gladiator was in the days of the old 18bit A16(not ultra), i believe... the current A16 ultra is much better. but to answer your question, yes, there are real productions done with the A16(don't ask me to list them though....

)

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:25 pm

here's another example I found back - original A16 on analog sources
by Wayne & Simon

cheers, Tom
yes, I'm a fan of their stuff...

added another track of them to the post further up

Mike Goodwin · Post by **Mike Goodwin** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:24 pm

Well folks I bought a Pulsar 2 card tonight

Only problem is that it came with software version 2.1 and I cant even install it on XP

I had a feeling when I noticed the version number but I figured it would at least get me going. I can't even find where I can buy the upgrade on the sonic core site. *sigh*

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:59 pm

contact Ralf, he always helps out ....

Mike Goodwin · Post by **Mike Goodwin** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:05 pm

hifiboom wrote:contact Ralf, he always helps out ....

Ya sent him an email, now I try to wait patiently. I'm not very good at that unfortunately

. Was there a scope version 3? or did it just go straight from 2.4 to 4.0?