A16 Ultra Faulty

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:58 am

garyb wrote:well, depending on how you ship, customs could be a problem. there is a correct way to do it when sending out repairs so that you don't get charged duty on your own gear. after that, the shipping itself is not that much, at least in the usa. it shouldn't be much more than $80 both ways to ship by air.

on the issue of the cable, i just suggested trying another because on a rare occasion, they can fail. because your repair tech(yes, i know they're trustworthy, i didn't think you were stupid. i know that the tech with the documentation is the most effective.) had it working, so maybe it's the cable. stupid, i know, but if a cable fixed the problem, then happy days! the reason i mentioned a GOOD cable is because it seems that not all firewire connectors are the same, and i have seen strange behavior from some generic cables because of poorly fitting connectors. this is not necessarily the cable's fault or the card's, but the combination of connectors....

Actually, if Gary remembers... I had a similar problem when I upgraded my old Pulsar II card to a new Scope card not too long ago. For reasons I was never able to fully understand, the original firewire cables started magically not working properly. These cables worked fine with the original Pulsar card but I was losing sync back to my A16 Ultra so I replaced them with new cables and everything magically started working again. Completely clueless as to why this would happen, My system has never left the studio and the orignal cables for all intents and purposes were never moved. I originally suspected a bad IO card but the new cables cured everything. I guess they just get bad with age or something. No other explanation. A better explanation (as Gary hinted) was that not all connectors are created equally. I suspect still that there were small differences in size or connector design such that the cables weren't making proper contact inside the new IO plate. I bought a new pair of cables from these guys and they work fine:

http://www.granitedigital.com/catalog/p ... cables.htm

If you haven't tried it already, try a new set of Z-Link cables. Good luck!

PS - one other comment - I have what I believe are one of the first A16 Ultra's off the assembly line. I bought my unit when the word first came out about them (in fact I had to wait a few weeks before my unit arrived). It has literally been "on" almost 7 days a week, 14-20 hours a day since I first bought it (has it been 4 or 5 years? I don't remember anymore). Amazing! Simply amazing that this thing is still rockin after all these years. One of the few pieces of gear in my studio that hasn't let me down. Maybe I got lucky and got a good one (not built on a Monday)

AudioDan · Post by **AudioDan** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:48 pm

Hi krizrox,
I appreciate the response, but as I detailed to garyb, this is nothing to do with cabling. Of course, the cables were one of the first things I eliminated from the equation - as anybody who knows anything about fault finding should - as I am quite aware of cabling issues with Z-Link.
I don't really want to write it all down again 'cause it's all in this thread. Suffice to say, this is a REAL issue with my A16 Ultra and with another one belonging to someone else who booked his in at the repair centre at the same time I did, and apparently the same problem that kyunghwee had. I get the feeling that the problem is not isolated to these three units.
Thanks anyway,

Cheers,

AudioDan

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:30 am

I understand AudioDan. I wish I could be anything other than a shoulder to cry on. But I'm with GaryB on this one - I would have never let some local schmuck try to fix mine. No matter how painful a process it might be to get it shipped back to SonicCore. I don't mean to be an armchair quarterback here but it seems like you have two options:

1) send it back to SonicCore and deal with the inevitable time lag and cost

or

2) Find a good used one on Ebay. Perhaps even GaryB can get you a good deal on a new one

In any event, I hope you get it resolved without too much headache. Good luck!

AudioDan · Post by **AudioDan** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:56 am

One of the main reasons I cannot and will not send the unit back to SonicCore is that I've already replaced it with a MOTU 2408mkIII. No fancy routing, but the simplicity and stability of it is quite welcome. Not to mention the forward compatability. It's become increasingly worrying to me that I would very soon not be able to build a computer that my Creamware gear would work with, and so having options of PCI cards for PCI-32, PCI-X and PCIe is quite a comforting thought. No more scouring the internet for the one-in-a-hundred motherboards that covers my needs and that will work with my Creamware cards. Now I just pick the motherboard I want and I know my card will work with it. MAC or PC, XP, Vista (not that I'll be getting Vista in the next hundred or so years) or OS whatever. Finally some GOOD SUPPORT!!!
I will miss the routing, the mixers and some of the FX in SFP, but really, nothing more. My A16 Ultra was destined to become an ADAT converter if I could get it fixed. Now it's a $1600 gap filler.

Cheers,

AudioDan

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:41 am

If you're gonna just throw in the towel - I'd be willing to pay for the cost of shipping at least - send it to me and I'll get it repaired and sell it on eBay.

Post by **garyb** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:46 am

likewise.
i'll give you a hint about the AD/DA you had(figuratively) and the one you have....BOSE corp LOVES the A16 and bought a number of them from me because it's the ONLY 8 channel converter under $1500 which is phase coherent across ALL the channels. it has been reliable as well. i'm not saying that you haven't had terrible problems or that others haven't, but i am saying that the problems are no more than other products and less than many.

yes, the computer setup is crucial, but it's really not hard if you are patient.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:37 pm

well, apologies in advance about a couple of ideas because I don't know the Ultra from inside - I have the predecessor which is most likely a completely different beast. But I've been dealing with sound electronics since I was a schoolboy plus 20 years of computer service on my record

first of all these boxes are simple - if there is anything that a local service can repair, then it doesn't exactly need detailed tech specs.
If the latter would be required, the local service couldn't handle it anyway as most likely non standard parts had to be replaced.

the box has a powersupply, possibly divided in 2 sections for conversion and digital supply
the 'audio-channels' are easy to identify as they exist in groups of 8 or 16 items
there's a logic-clock-communication section next to the respective connectors

3.3 5 12 and 15V cover 98% of all supply cases. Easy to measure at the respective parts or connectors.

the most common items to fail are electrolytic capacitors - a simple dried out cap buffering the digital clock supply will make the latter fail.
Sometimes it's just a (gone) bad solder joint.
If visual inspection doesn't reveal a suspect, cold pressurized air or even knocking with the backside of a screwdriver will.

But since this is a FireWire Device (ZLink is just a name), there is one special case of problem (imho)
you can fry such a circuit accidently just by inserting the cable plug.
I've verified this at 2 external harddisks in the office - another 2 failures (sudden death of the interface) are highly suspective to have the same reason.

It's obviously due to tolerances in connector plugs - and there even exist connectors which you actually can insert the wrong way.
I've seen a girl in the office do right that, but the disk survived the treatment.
The damaged interfaces were correctly plugged in though, and the short-circuit was easily smellable.

So you should carefully inspect the interface around the FireWire chip regarding traces of smoke or burned SMD parts

if you live close to the sea-side, the aggressive air may age solder joints quicker than usual.

cheers, Tom
- just waffling a few (pretty standard) rules of thumb - a qualified engineer certainly should be able to handle at least 80% of possible failures this way

AudioDan · Post by **AudioDan** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:54 am

Hi krizrox,
With the trouble and expense I've gone to so far with this debarkle, I wouldn't quite think of it as "throwing in the towel". Sorry, but for now I will not be off-loading the unit. It will stand as a solemn reminder that I should do my homework or at least know what I'm up against before I buy products such as these. I'm just about to take delivery of a Radikal SAC 2, but I'm quite aware of it's past niggles and it's current production status. I know what I'm getting myself into but I'm willing to take the risk (and seeing as how it's been reduced from $3995 to $750 it's a sensible risk).
Hi garyb. One of the main reasons that I bought the A16 Ultra was that I was aware of how classy the conversion was for the money. Another reason was that I assumed, 'given that it's a German made product I can't go wrong'. I'm not suggesting that other products don't break down. I too work in a music shop so I know what breaks and what doesn't. I see that percentage-wise Mackie mixers (although fantastically better sounding than Behringers) have a higher failure rate in Australian conditions, than Behringer mixers. Not something that most people want to hear, but it's true. The issue is not whether the things break, it's more what the parent company wants to do about it and what methods they have in-place to get it done. Getting a Mackie mixer repaired here - up till a week or so ago (new distributor) - has been somewhat of a difficult task, warranty or not. Behringer Australia, on the other hand have been known to replace the unit with a new one up to 10 months out of warranty. It's attitudes like that which make market leaders out of companies with outrageously sub-standard product.
Creamware / SonicCore is a small-ish company - I understand that - but if they want to maintain a good reputation then they have to offer solid support to all their customers. Word spreads quickly in this industry when people have a bad experience with a company / product. It took Terratec a very long time to clear their name of ONE faulty driver release.
Patience is indeed a virtue, but unfortunately it cannot hold out again progress indefinitely. The fact is that there will come a time very soon when motherboards simply won't be made with PCI-32 slot son-board. I imagine it's one of those ghosts which is haunting motherboard manufacturing companies at the moment. One thing that working in a low-end music shop has taught me is patience. With the morons I have to deal with it's a wonder I didn't flip out years ago. I'm very selective about motherboards, and the peripherals I surround them with, and hence I do a lot of research before I settle on a system that covers my needs. The last one I built presented a serious challenge. There were worryingly few motherboards that covered my needs (CPU, expansion etc) would last for more than a year or so, and that would still work my Creamware cards. The one I settled on had only one slot that my Luna II would work in. The 2408 system on the other hand would work happily in all six slot son that board. Patience is one thing, progress is something else.
The reason that the long-time Australian distributor of Creamware dropped the product was because they couldn't wait any longer for Creamware's support to catch up with progress. Instead they took up the MOTU agency and they've been kicking arse ever since. SonicCore now has only a half-hearted import of their synth and Klangbox line in Australia and probably one in 500 people I talk to actually know the name Creamware, let alone SonicCore. Even A16 Ultras are now a special order from the new importer.
Creamware have certainly taught their customers to be patient, and I have no doubt that there are thousands and thousands of users out there who are all patiently building dated computers or patiently problem solving on their new computers that their Creamware cards don't like. All the time, patiently waiting for SonicCore to get on-board with new drivers and new support that the shiney new name/image/website seemed to promise. Meanwhile, as I waited patiently with all the other faithful out there, I watched the reality of my main audio system collapsing underneath me. No amount of adjustments to cset.ini can fix the problems I've had with the gear. I was one of the first ones to fall (unwitting) victim to the dual processor issue. After everything I went through with that, the failure of one of my favourite bits of gear just concretes the feeling that I'm an idiot for waiting faithfully.
I think I've come to the conclusion that impatience cost money, but patience costs more.

On a less melodramatic note, astroman, thankyou for your information. You're obviously very knowledgable in this area and I appreciate your input. I have had other firewire devices fail as you described and it has hance been an issue I was aware of. Although firewire is spec'ed as a 'hot-pluggable' connector, but it's a good idea to avoid it where possible. With the 1.5 amp power supply spec. firewire has it could certainly give six pin devices a real kick. I honestly believe with the self repairing (mostly) intermittent nature of this A16 Ultra problem, that it's a capacitor issue, which is why I find it a bit insulting that SonicCore won't release the information on how to fix it. If I'm wrong I appologise to SonicCore (maybe...) but I can't see an I.C. or a transistor presenting these issues the way they have. It seems to be completely unrelated to heat or length of operation. Infact it seems more related to length of time that power has been disconnected from the unit.
Anyway, thanks again,

Cheers,

AudioDan

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:53 am

Dan, you're probably right regarding mainstream-supermarket-gamer-office motherboards - that stuff has (intentionally) quick turnaround times.
But you can rely on the fact there there will be industrial strenght boards with PCI slots for at least the next decade.
The last time I visited my local PC seller, the (brandnew) Supermicro mobo with 3 PCI slots still was on backorder - not available yet.
There is simply too much stuff outside to dispose of that slot.

Who cares about a few musos ?
Analog Devices is selling several thousand times as much DSPs into the telecom market, which is still expanding, and all that stuff is PCI based
It got to be simple, cheap and reliable - no bliss or bells 'n whistles

You can still order boards with ISA slots and recent chipsets.

I picked a TCom example, but there are millions of PCI cards working in industrial environments which are simply not known to general public.
But they do exist - and those folks do not really want to system-hop every couple of years.
There's a software investment on those devices that exceeds the hardware costs by at least 2 decimals (on the left side)

honestly, that 'outdated' talk is marketing blurb - it's as legitimate as it's pointless
why bother if there is no real choice anyway, as everyone uses identical chipsets - Asus or Microstar or Tyan or even Apple recently

there may be only 3 suppliers for boards with PCI slots next year, and 97 brands offering boards without them - but in the end all chipsets originate from the same trio of suppliers.
For good reasons you don't pick the most cheapo today, whatever you plan to do with it, don't you ...

cheers, Tom

Post by **garyb** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:54 pm

there are some factual anomolies here.
the main one to address is this: Scope cards work very well indeed with the latest processors and motherboards.

SonicCore is a handful of people, maybe 25-30. they will never act like behriger, a huge operation, or MOTU another big operation. there's nothing wrong with using those products if you prefer. why still post here? an attempt to poison the operation? if you hate the product, say your piece and move on with the new gear. no need for flames.

patience costs more money? never.

the dual processor issue was short lived, about 2 months long and quite a while ago. i have built dual processor(dual p3 even!) and dual core machines that made the owners very happy indeed.

AudioDan · Post by **AudioDan** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:08 am

Hi Tom,
You're quite right. I'm sure there will be more industrial motherboards for years to come with PCI slots (not from Apple though). I tend to buy server-boards myself. I want my audio systems to last more than a year or so. I grudgingly moved from an Asus PD-DL Deluxe Dual Xeon board - an exceptional board - classed as a workstation board, to an Asus DSBV-D which is literally classed by Asus as a "Server Board". It has some much more 'industrial strength' BIOS options and the potential to use Quad Core 1333FSB Xeon processors. It was the most powerful board I could find that wasn't horribly expensive, had room to expand and that actually had a slot I could put a reasonable graphics card in. But...only one PCI-32 slot. There certainly were other boards I could have got with more PCI-32 slots, but none of them had a decent graphics slot. There was in Intel board which totally suited my needs, but was only available in The States and wouldn't be coming into Australia any more. Australia is actually quite cut off from the real 'world-market' in these products. I probably shouldn't base my arguments on the status of the Australian market. We really can't order special boards with ISA slots on them.
As usual your response is informative and useful.
Much appreciated.

Garyb,
The issue I refer to is still very current and still unresolved. Creamware eventually admitted themselves that XTC mode (the way I want to work and the function that I bought a good portion of my gear to utilise) does not support multi-thread processing. I have the error messages to prove it.
Why still post here? Because I have a legitimate issue with a one of the many pieces of Creamware gear I've invested in and I'm not satisfied with the solution I've been offered. I'm seeking an alternate solution by means of a forum which was put in place for seeking solutions to problems that Creamware did not have the resources to attend to. I give detailed responses to justify my posts, and some of those have to include information about other products. I also judge products (both subjectively and objectively) based on their merrits. If I've had a bad experience with a product I will not omit bad feedback for the sake of the company's reputation. If you are offended by that then why do you keep reading?
If you doubt my commitment to helping people on this forum read this thread:
http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23214
I have been a great supporter of Creamware for a long time, but I've had some really rotten experiences with the product and I don't blindly swear allegence to the brand. My intention with this thread was to determine if I could find an alternate solution or whether to move on. I now have my answer.
Finally patience means waiting, waiting takes time and time - as they say - is money. How many jobs would you be willing to put off while waiting for your system to catch up to its full potential? Patience does cost.

Cheers,

AudioDan

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:17 am

AudioDan wrote:... Australia is actually quite cut off from the real 'world-market' in these products. I probably shouldn't base my arguments on the status of the Australian market. We really can't order special boards with ISA slots on them. ...

well, you can't buy Cuban cigars in the US either, and that wouldn't be half around the globe...

I'm pretty sure to have seen them with CoreDuo, too, but here's an example by Supermicro
can't believe that it's impossible to order that thingy

Bifop · Post by **Bifop** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:12 am

astroman wrote: I'm pretty sure to have seen them with CoreDuo, too, but here's an example by Supermicro
can't believe that it's impossible to order that thingy

Where is it impossible ? I've done a machine based on this model not so long ago (the guy was using a Sadie 4 system with an ISA sync board). Ordered it from a french supplier.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:03 am

Audio Dan, i'm not making light of your troubles or suggesting this thread shouldn't exist. i'm not against you, although i suspect shipping is not as bad as you think. for parts, there are a number of internet suppliers who will ship to Australia, although i realize that import duty can be obnoxioous. even here in the States, dealers are woefully understocked and i must usually order online. i will remind you that XTC mode is not supported and hasn't been for quite some time. as you know there is very little info on it. if you were sold on XTC mode, then i'd be mad at your dealer...as to your other problems, if you don't want to ship to germany, you'll have to do something else, obviously....as stated before, if you are going to trash the A16, i'm willing to pay the shipping to germany and have it fixed....

Dewi · Post by **Dewi** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:07 am

garyb wrote:i suspect shipping is not as bad as you think.

Sorry Gary but overseas shipping costs are truly hideous here in Australia. Dan's story has me a little concerned as my A16U is only syncing in master mode now, after having the unit for about 5 years. I've tried the usual cable swapping etc but no luck. I can live with using it in master mode but I just hope this isn't a sign that I will soon lose functionality altogether.

As far as the Scope card goes, I still think it's the best piece of gear I've ever bought. It runs more stable than ever on my new DAW, which didn't cost very much to build. I suspect that most of Dan's troubles were brought about by XTC mode, which I've never bothered with.

bill3107 · Post by **bill3107** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:37 am

i do understand that technical problems always tend to emphasise the truth : even a very good gear can fail.

I know at least 5/6 person around me with A16 ultra and they are very happy with them. The price of this item has always been very fair ! Of course living in australia makes things expensive, i agree. Remember that it would cost you a lot to send back a good english preamp too ! I remember few years ago Creamware repaired one of my boards and they even checked it up for a very fair price. One of my friends has got problems with M-audio projectmix and support is very bad. As for sonicCore, they ask you to send the unit, i would say they just do what they can ... Should you live a Groenland and things could be even worse. I am sorry for you and i of course understand that you are very desappointed. If you could find the problem (the part responsible) i am sure soniccore would be ready to send you the part for replacing...

good luck !

Bbw · Post by **Bbw** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:29 am

Hi everyone.

AudioDan, I stumbled across this post because of a problem I was having with my A16. I read your initial post and it was EXACTLY - to the letter - the problem which has just developed with my unit.

Unfortunately, I have no solution yet but I will add some of the circumstances surrounding my scenario in the hope that the pooling of information will result in solutions for all.

(btw I use the unit via optical - not S-Link)

I also tested different power units - no solution.
I removed all connections prior to power-on - no solution.

Here is my set of circumstances.

For around 3 years, I had been using the Scope card with the A16 without one single problem. It was as stable as a rock with all programs - and still is with everything except SONAR. I have used ABLETON for years and the machine never crashes with ABLETON. Over the last few versions of SONAR, it crashes ( and i mean spontaneous power down - not program freeze ).

I needed to use SONAR for an old rekindled project so I installed an old FIREBOX as (what I thought would be) a temporary fix. Naturally, all apps (including SONAR 7 Producer) worked fine with the FIREBOX - so I had solved my problem of an unstable system. (Note: I disabled Scope software while Firebox was working so it did not appear as an available device in any application). In all the time I was using the FIREBOX, I had no need for the A16 to be operating so it was totally disconnected/unpowered.

Well, when I finished my project and removed FIREBOX from my system, I re-established Scope - just like it was before - ONLY TO FIND THAT THE A16 WOULD NOT BOOT. Actually, it initially took a while for it to fire up (which I thought was a bit odd) Without me doing anything at all - apart from standing there with a confused look on my face - the sync light went GREEN and I thought it was all fine. Then a few minutes later, the input lights all started flashing randomly green on all 16 channels - just the bottom row ( ie the -60db row). It had done this a bit in the past year or so but it never interferred with its operation.

After about an hour of successful operation, there was a loud click though the monitors ( you know the one which makes you think "What the F### was that???") and the sync light was now orange.

A few days later, it is still the case

So, I don't know if that means anything to anyone but - like I said - my problem is exactly that as outlined by AudioDan.

cheers

TRMP8R · Post by **TRMP8R** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:43 am

At least your A16 shows something. Mine was in my rack for 6 years happily sending audio to my desk, when I decided to save the planet one night, and turn it off. Next morning, it flashed it's led's briefly on startup before doing it's power-up sequence, as it normally does, and then died. PSU not a problem - tried 2 different ones. I suspect a startup relay or cap, onc that is close to the DC power input.

But I thought I'd ask Sonic Core for a circuit diagramme or service manual.
I got this from back:

"sorry, but we cannot offer the electrical diagramms of our products.
All i can offer to generate a RMA-number for customer repairing."

If you think shipping from Australia is expensive, try New Zealand!
I'm gonne see about fixing it first without the manual.
I'll let you know my results.

CarvinGuitarFreak · Post by **CarvinGuitarFreak** » Sat May 03, 2008 11:04 am

Hi All,

I just came across this thread... Is this a common problem with the A16u?

CGF

Post by **garyb** » Sat May 03, 2008 12:37 pm

not in my experience, but.....