Dynatube Impressions

arela · Post by **arela** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:05 am

impressive pedal set - nice idea

powerpulsarian · Post by **powerpulsarian** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:19 pm

hifiboom wrote:
the native emulations without delay and reverb mostly sound like kiddy toy sound...

Not true at all.

I own GuitarRig and tried the Dynatube demo right along side it. The first thing I did was strip all the effects off GuitarRig so that I could get to the true amp emulation.

Side by side, I found GuitarRig provided a richer, clearer and more balanced tone in many cases. After some messing around and tweaking, Dynatube had a killer tone also, but it still seemed a little harsher to my ears no matter what I did. Maybe Dynatube is more like the real amps (I really don't know), but to my ears I just prefer the sound of GuitarRig slightly over Dynatube.

Both had a great dynamic response. For example, with light overdrive tones, I could get a very good reaction to how hard I picked.

The bottomline for me was that the pure amp-emulation sound from GuitarRig sounded better to me (even if it was very slight) - and it has a lot more versatility built in with emulations of many stomp boxes and guitar-oriented effects (if you want to add them). Another plus is that GuitarRig has a nice feature built in that allows you to reduce the guitar amp noise effectively (tailored to your guitar input automatically).

I know there is a lot of flexibilty with the Scope system and Dynatube - but this combination is not as streamlined and just takes longer to get to the tone you are looking for. One Dynatube advantage is that you don't have to deal with any latency issues. However, I am able to get such low and stable latency with the Scope card that using GuitarRig has no real issues in this area either.

The one thing I am so tired of hearing is people immediately discounting software plugins and spewing this crap about there being no possibility of them being as good as a Scope plugin. This is just not true anymore. Of course the software that is good will most likely kill your CPU, but it does exist and it is only getting better and better.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:53 pm

interesting - I have used guitar rig (the demo) with a much appreciating mood to start from, as it's very affordable and comes with that hardware stuff.
I did the same as you - stripped everything down to the basics and what was left was clearly the sound of the Reaktor engine, artificial (in the sense of analog gear), big round bottom, overemphasized high mids and a generally 'slim' sound.
It is exactly what separates Native's (original) B4 (which I have bought btw) from CWA's B2003 - or Prodyssey from GForce Oddity.

I would never say that guitar rig sounds bad - in fact it sounds pretty 'good', but not in a sense I'd expect from a trustworthy analog amp emulation - in that context it fails - and that's what's printed on the box, isn't it ?

Cpu and (Sharc) DSP processing DO SOUND significantly different - don't ask me why - but obviously not all math is created equal - yet it's easy to verify by listening.
The STW Ambience is for sure an excellent sounding reverb - I could easily rebuild an identical setting on a native counterpart .
Both will generate excellent responses and you may prefer one or the other (depending on context), but their basic sound is entirely different - though they probably even use the same algorithmic approach.

I don't care much as I have native programs in my collection, too - but isn't it usually the 'native' users that diss the DSP idiots as wasting their money on anachronistic gear ?

cheers, Tom

Atomic Marshmallow · Post by **Atomic Marshmallow** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:19 pm

Well, some interesting reading here. I will experiment more with Dynatube during the Christmas period when I have more time on my hands and report back any changes in opinion (if any).

Though, correct me if I am wrong, but I think the metallic sound I was complaining about could be due to the fact that my PC tower is made of aluminium ( a Thermaltake tower) and I wonder if it is interfering with the pickups from my guitar (a Fender Strat). Maybe that is a totally ridiculous theory, I have no idea.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:39 pm

that theory is indeed pointless, as aluminium has no magnetic features whatsoever...

...but if your Strat would not sound kind of metallic I'd rather guess there's something awfully wrong with your guitar

(you have single coils on it, don't you)

cheers, Tom

Post by **hubird** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:27 pm

alu mac...

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:22 pm

Damn, they did some cool stuff with aluminium

valis · Post by **valis** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:50 pm

Actually the speakers, and to a certain degree the EMF released by the cpu/ram etc DO affect the pickups, especially speakers in line of sight. The case is only an EMF radiator in the sense that it has all the components inside of it, and in many cases it acts as more of a faraday cage type shield than radiator.

powerpulsarian · Post by **powerpulsarian** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:08 pm

astroman wrote:interesting - I have used guitar rig (the demo) with a much appreciating mood to start from, as it's very affordable and comes with that hardware stuff.
I did the same as you - stripped everything down to the basics and what was left was clearly the sound of the Reaktor engine, artificial (in the sense of analog gear), big round bottom, overemphasized high mids and a generally 'slim' sound.

I agree on both Reaktor and B4, but I don't agree you on GuitarRig.

I used to use Reaktor a lot (before I purchased my Scope card) - and after playing Minimax, ProTone, etc., I couldn't stand the sterile sound of Reaktor anymore (and I really was never interested in some of the gimmicks it offered). But GuitarRig is a different story. If I knew how to make Reaktor ever sound that good, I would be still using it all the time.

Stripped down to just the amp and cab only, there was very little difference between Dynatube and GuitarRig. Just a sublte, more clear and defined tone from GuitarRig, as I already mentioned. (I would love to get the Dynatube demo again to do some recording with both to see if anyone here could pick out which is which.)

Now, with that said, the tones I was mostly experimenting with our those slightly overdriven sounds that provide a lot of dynamic response to my picking. Maybe the high gain settings are a different story.

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:43 am

I think that Dynatube is better but raw: a sound to be tweaked and finalized (just as real amp+mic).
NI Guitar Rig is more "mix friendly" and "pre mastered" sound... it's a clever and frequent trick from some software houses for a fast solution of the lack of resouces of native enviroment.
Creamware's choice (because the huge possibility of easy routing) is for a simple but powerful amp+cabinet emu.
Maybe was a better choice for the creation (instead only one dynatube dev) 2 different devices, one for amp and one for cabinet... sometimes I need only cabinet emu with other devices.
Anyway I've tried some more complex setups with CAPO SE-70 and I must say that the sound was VERY realistic and powerful!
Guitar Rig 2 (and Amplitube2) are a slighly less "full-bodied".

Don't forget the importance of a good and huge professional preset supply with a software product! Creamware really lacks with this in Dynatube, maybe because they have not thought about creating a multieffect device as NI & IK

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:42 am

powerpulsarian wrote:...Stripped down to just the amp and cab only, there was very little difference between Dynatube and GuitarRig. Just a sublte, more clear and defined tone from GuitarRig, as I already mentioned...

oops, I should have mentionend that I referred more to the general CPU versus Sharc processing - in fact I compared Guitar Rig to Celmo's Bassamp Sim (with guitar settings) - never used Dynatube myself.
The latter is probably built with internal oversampling circuitry (similiar to CWA's synth filters) featuring algorithms of those Swedish folks - at least that would be my guess from the examples and people's reports.

cheers, Tom

Atomic Marshmallow · Post by **Atomic Marshmallow** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:39 am

astroman wrote:that theory is indeed pointless, as aluminium has no magnetic features whatsoever...
...but if your Strat would not sound kind of metallic I'd rather guess there's something awfully wrong with your guitar
(you have single coils on it, don't you)

cheers, Tom

So much for my theory then and excuse my lack of scientific knowledge. Yes, my strat is single coil. I am pretty sure there is nothing wrong with my guitar. It works fine in other situations.

katano · Post by **katano** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:08 am

hehe...

tom meant a strat HAS TO sound metallic, else it isn't a real strat! so, nothing's wrong with your guitar. have you tried another git with humbuckers?

greez
roman

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:37 am

exactly Katano - I bought me a G+L Strat for it's pure, crisp and transparent metal twang in a kind of love-at-first-sight-affair right out of the shop.
An incredible amount of nuances depending on how you caress, tweak or bang the strings - always a clean cut-through, but still enough of sustain (for a 500 Euro plank)

cheers, Tom

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:35 am

Maybe you better could change your DI preamp, and AD converter.

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:53 am

Yeah, I've found a substantial difference between cheap solid state preamp (built in Boss SE-70, mixers preamps like i.e. Behringer (sic!), Yamaha, Soundcraft...) and good tube preamp (and good A/D converter).
If U use guitar plugins, U MUST use something that gives "body" to the incoming signal!
This is valid for NI, IK and Dynatube.

remember: "In the DAWs = shit in -> shit out; gold in -> gold out, don't matter how good are your plugins..."

My 2 cents.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:20 am

I can second that - having 'overmodded' my cheapo MAudio pre...

with some 'distance' to judge with fresh ears it's rather muddy now on guitar (I was entirely focussed on bass), but actually the record/line out of my Ibanez Valbee is much more transparent and punchy on both guitar and bass... learning by doing... so to say.
Imho single coils need a lot of transparency to live up to their character, but a good pre doesn't hurt on humbuckers either...

On the other hand I have to admit that I'm rather impressed about the sound the Valbee makes with just the CWA stock compressor on bass...
I also fell in the 'well, it's just stock...' trap and relied on the compressor in the amp simulation - at least for my current bass I'm not sure if the amp sim is needed at all. Eventually it turns out to be just listening - without prejudice and fresh ears...

since it was mentioned further up: I'm not sure which 'engine' my guitar rig demo had - if the current version makes use of what's in the FM8 then it's for sure a serious device and it could even explain that it was perceived as 'more analog' than Dynatube (both sims on 'pure' settings). At least that's how the difference between FM7 and FM8 could be described.

cheers, Tom

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:10 am

Adding to what have been told, note that even a diferent preamp will sound diferent, even they are all high end.
The converter when is good, must give an uncoloured sound, and transparency and no jitter.
But the preamps are other story, you can get such diference with diferent preamps as with diferent plugins, ones gives more "valve", others a thin sound, others colour.., and the combination with your instrument may give very diferent result.
Would be needed just a forum section just for this. IF you want dist, is diferent the if you want clean. Is diferent if you plug a Fender guitar than if you plug a Gibson. Depending on what you want you may need a diferent preamp.
Take a look at www.prodigy.com forums, a DIY forum where you can find a lot of info about preamps and characteristics of the sound depending on the components and circuits used, (transf, IC, valves, Mosfet... etc).
It´s not as easy as plug anything on any soundcard and get all you want.

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:08 am

lagoausente wrote:Is diferent if you plug a Fender guitar than if you plug a Gibson. Depending on what you want you may need a diferent preamp.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that my old Fender Telecaster america '73 sounds A LOT better than my crap Maison Strato (my first very, very crap&cheap electric guitar) (actual value 10-15€) in Dynatube!!!

The strange thing is that this difference is less evident with native plugs like NI & IK, then I can easily realize that these softwares are less good than Dynatube. Because they are "pre mastered", blurry (optimized for the average of the destiantion of use), and CPU optimized (always a bad compromise...), etc.
Dynatube almost exactly involves as a real amp+cabinet.

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:52 am

Dynatube almost exactly involves as a real amp+cabinet.

yes, much more like a convolution process, like convolution reverbs or like some hardware emulations of the UAD1 card.
The disvantage of this, if really can be considered as it, is that require more work to get the final result. That means, select the DI preamp good for that style and guitar used, select the correct effects to insert on the amp, or even put before it (infinite posibilities reallly). And don´t forget play with the settings of the amp like the mic distance, etc
I think it requires experience and knowledge.
The advantage is that can get nearly all you may want. It the depends more on the ability to set all those paramaters than on any other native amps.