No topic

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:36 am

On 2006-01-05 08:44, Nestor wrote:
When XTC came out, it was bezzare to see that about 80% of us, did not truly like the idea, we have always preffered working in the traditional mode, because it gives you much freedom and creativity than XTC. YOu can create some mad connections and of course, use the card at your maximum advantag, and also all the plugins available.

For Creamware, I am quite sure this luck of interest and even some level of rejection to the XTC mode, was a cold surprise... as they expected, all on the contrary, a great welcomed to the new way.

I think Creamware should revisit the interest in XTC mode. I have seen a lot of people talking about it around here.

While XTC is not as powerful and flexible - it is more simple to use and a more integrated way of working with software. You have to admit that much is true - and for the musicians that are not into studio engineering - simple and fast is a very important thing. Not everyone wants to worry about complex routing, etc.

I would make an argument that XTC mode allows me to be more creative than when using the SFP environment - because I just don't have to worry about the engineering things - I can just focus on creating music.

I truely believe focusing on making things more simple could open up the SCOPE cards to a whole new audience of customers (outside the studio engineer types and more toward the performance musicians - which really are the majority) - it could help them sell a lot more cards. And the SFP environment is still there for those who want a more advanced and flexible way of working.

Because there was not a lot of interest at first around here is not suprising (people usually don't like change) - but that doesn't mean new users would not be interested. Also, don't forget other DSP cards that integrate with software have had great success.

Tuccos · Post by **Tuccos** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:59 am

On 2006-01-05 09:51, Shayne White wrote:
I always thought XTC was a dumb idea and I'm glad they've dropped it. The whole point of getting Scope is to have the free-routing window and the zero-latency, hardware-like operation. There's none of that in XTC; it's just another set of latency-introducing plugins without the snappy convenience of software. I'd prefer them developing on the stuff that's really important than on stuff that isn't. CW always had a priority problem; they always were busy developing too many products at once without getting the first ones mature first. Thankfully they streamlined themselves with SFP 3.1, so hopefully by the time they start developing Scope again (after the ASB boxes bring in some cash) they'll know exactly what to work on.

Shayne

The problem is that they arent developing anything anymore for Scope systems. The updates are just software bundles with some older plugins given out for free.

Creamware seems to concentrrate more on their Hardware boxes than thinking about their old customers.

I love the XTC mode, i usually throw in a Master Verb or some compressors into my Mixes in Nuendo 3.2.

It works perfect with the little problem that the single Latency of the plugins is to high which forces Nuendo to do a lot Compensation, which leads to the result that if i want to let a Singer record in real time, that i get a few ms latency.

The other problem is that Direct Monitoring under Steinberg Software and XTC doesnt seem to work either.

The driver is damn stable, only one problem is that if HT Enabled leads to unexpected crashes under Nuendo or if working with Audio pool data, it will crackles while zooming the grafic.

HT disabled fixes all these Problems.

And guess what !! i got the solution to disable HT from this site.

I my biggest complaint is that CW still official sells the cards with alot advertisement for the XTC mode.

http://www.music-store.de
http://www.thomann.de

they all sell the cards with XTC mode advertised.

If they sell 1 Unit per month its still ripped of customer if he wanted the DSP power.

Btw i am a professional German Hardtrance Producer. I work with samples and maybe 1 extern source like a Singer or Gitar player. i never needed the SFP system for anyhting.
I just work in Nuendo with a 3.5Ghz Intel.
I dont want to put more cards into my PC like the UAD-1 or Powercore. I dont even need more DSP power if CW would work on the XTC mode.

Music is not just made in big studios with unbelievable equiptment. It also made im small living room studios, and guess what, it can even be sold and you can earn cash with it.

Creamware has one of the best drivers for me thats why i keep the cards, now if the XTC mode would get a little improvement in Plugin latency i could keep it until the Cards wont fit into any new Motherboards anymore

[ This Message was edited by: Tuccos on 2006-01-06 07:13 ]

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:08 am

Creamware seems to concentrrate more on their Hardware boxes than thinking about their old customers.

And why do you think that is? To generate cash - then they might be able to spend some money/time on a new SCOPE.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:31 am

'thinking' about someone doesn't pay the rent or the wages or the credit fee at the bank account

those little boxes seem to be appreciated by customer demand - as can be observed with other manufacturers as well.

people are stupid by default
- Scope IS hardware (as has been mentioned countless times here) yet it's often considered 'software' like a VSTi
- an Access Virus is sold as an 'analog synth', just because there are some knobs on the surface (not by it's manufacturer, but by previous owners)
- UAD and Powercore cards are bought for bringing famous names into your box and not because they are convenient or 'good'

Windows Vista is 'ante portas', OSX has changed it's flavours faster than one's favourite girlfriend, there are 3 other Windozes to support and a suffering classic MacOS...
that is tons of work that can NEVER return it's investments at the low sales rates and/or rock bottom prices.

may I remind on the sellout resonance NOAH caught ?
Of course it's the buy-of-the-century for the lucky owner in spe. But a NOAH EX for 598 to 998 Euro with 6 or more world class plugs that would EACH sell for that amount on PT is beyond belief...

it's that kind of (or similiar) customer behaviour that makes this platform suffer, and XTC in particular.
Unfortunately CWA CANNOT compete with UAD, because the latter has the famous vintage name - loop back to above - people are stupid...

honestly, I can remember a time where your wishes would have been gladly fullfilled by the (any) respective company...
It was 17 years back in time and we sold Powermacs from $5k up, a graphcard with 4MB of dedicated memory was a mere $12k and 40 MB HDs were state of the art at $1k.

cheers, Tom

ps after your edit:
if your needs are that humble (in processing power context) and you do it professionally, then why the hell don't you just throw the Scope in a Win98 box for 100 Euro (or a little more for a pro 19" case) and connect it by a Marc8 or RME ?
I've done exactly that and was so amazed that I even invested in some 133MHZ Ram and a Tualatin to make the ASUS Tusl2-c happy as can be

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2006-01-06 07:43 ]

Tuccos · Post by **Tuccos** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:55 am

On 2006-01-05 05:38, fra77x wrote:
The latency could get better if you "refresh" the plugin list in cubase. (you must also have set a different Ulli setting through the cset.ini)

Best hint !!

i set my cset.ini values to 64 and let nuendo rescan all XTC plugins.

they went from 642 Buffer to 128 ! Cheers !

this helps alot because the plugins buffer adds up and the latency compensation has to equal that out.

Thnx alot

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:21 pm

On 2006-01-06 05:38, Shroomz wrote:
...For substantial progression to be made, knowledge & information must be shared. You must be willing to share, teach & be unselfish in the name of progess .. oh & trust plays a part too. An example would be the 'nix developement of SFP drivers. ...

a quote from SonicState regarding information share, trust and .nix

The enterprising hacker went on to comment on the "interesting" boot scripts.
"You can see how Korg loads everything behind the scenes. Some parts of the code is commented. As time allows, I'm interested in looking at the Linux underpinnings in more detail."

see original post in <a href=http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... m=31&3>off topic</a>

btw I agree on the information share principle - if the team is thoroughly selected and/or there's a good vibe, (hopefully even more talent) - then it will rock

cheers, Tom

ps: the SonicState article referes to a post on the Karma Labs Forum (partly quoted above)
this is from the same post - reads familiar somehow
I've done some other minor analysis of the Linux code on the Oasys. It's interesting how Korg uses loop-AES to load all of their proprietary software, which implies it is encrypted. It'll require more research to understand the mechanism exactly, but it seems Korg has made a smart move in encrypting their Intellectual Property so no one can de-compile it.

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2006-01-06 14:50 ]

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:18 pm

Sorry Tom, unfortunately you're not making any sense again

maakbow · Post by **maakbow** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:45 pm

Tuccos

I too brought my creamware card to use in xtc mode though the HT issue never popped up for me as i have luna II card with zlink extention and a16.

The way of having all one project is great [though i use logic]

I since have sold my hardware mixer and replaced with scope mixer so it necesitated a change to scope mode.
loading 2 separate projects for each song is not that much drama... it maybe taks 30 seconds....just dont forget to do it!!!.

The versatility and lack of latency issues in scope mode is worth it even though i never had a real problem in those areas.

I was not looking foward to dropping xtc mode... but it was the best thing i did.

BTW...HT does seem to make a reasonable difference to how you puter responds to the 2 different apps running [at least in my experience]...I have tried with and without HT and more than just increased performance...the stability switching between several apps is greatly improved.

Maak

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:22 pm

Ahhhh... Planet Z just wouldn't be the same without these threads which come up from time to time.

I know it's satisfying to spew your anger onto a forum (well, who are you going to piss off but a bunch of people who just enjoy using what they have to make music), but please do us the courtesy of searching the forum first... then you might realise that your opinions are not so groundbreaking and revolutionary after all.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:56 pm

On 2006-01-06 15:18, Shroomz wrote:
Sorry Tom, unfortunately you're not making any sense again

fortunately not all people share your difficulties

Tuccos · Post by **Tuccos** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:42 pm

On 2006-01-06 17:22, darkrezin wrote:
Ahhhh... Planet Z just wouldn't be the same without these threads which come up from time to time.

I know it's satisfying to spew your anger onto a forum (well, who are you going to piss off but a bunch of people who just enjoy using what they have to make music), but please do us the courtesy of searching the forum first... then you might realise that your opinions are not so groundbreaking and revolutionary after all.

oh well with this kind of people Creamware wont change anything in the next 200 years.
This is a very weak comment, and either you have to much cash that you dont try to fight for what you bought for your hard earned money, or your really dumb enough for companies like creamware that rip off, cheat their customers like they did with the XTC business.

Cheers !

Sorry i am no Money Cow to milk, at least new customers of CW cards that were happy to get some DSP power in form of the XTC mode will see here that they arent alone, and maybe they can get their money back if they are clever enough and dont believe all this SFP crap.

Why arent you SFP guru´s accept that your arent the only CW customers ?? Who the heck do you guys think you are ???

I payed almost 1000 Euros for my whole CW setup, should i be quiet now ??

Should i be quiet after i talked to Andre@creamware ??

NOOOO ! i am not quiet !! i show CW my anger in form of this Posting, and i have all rights to complain.

I dont care about SFP, i didnt care about any routing possiblities. I trusted Creamware that i will get a super extra DSP power Farm for my Nuendo/Cubase/Logic sequencer.

I am waiting until today for this.

I cant see it, i only see stupid Updates, that are no updates.

i see Drivers with the Date of 2002, i see nothing good that creamware did to the Hardware i bought.

NOTHING.

And you defend this ??????

Either you guys are mostly on drugs or Creamware employees. Maybe bribed or blind.

I dont know what is going on here, but its unbelievable how Peaceful this community takes all the Bull S. CW tell them and accept it.

I for my part wont ever suggest any of my Music colleges to buy anything from Creamware while this Planet Earth exists.

PROBLEMS from day 1 !

Installation > Missing Files everywhere ! Phonecall Creamware > We know about it, copy the files manually.

Why do i need to use the install routine if i have to copy all the files Manually later ????

Crackling pops, CPU spikes unexplainable, Crackles when scrolling Grafics in Steinberg Sequencers. Phonecall Creamware > Disable Hyperthreating ! FIXED !! but what ??? where are new drivers Andre ?? no answer !

Cant enter Numbers in VST wrapped PLugins, no way to enter BPM into delay or MOD effects > Phonecall Creamware > We know about this but we have no fix for it. Dont use the functions or try with Copy Paste. WHAT ???

GO AWAY creamware with your false advertising.

If any Creamware employee ever reads this. STOP advertising for the XTC mode before your Boss gets his butt up and fixes all the problems it has.

Creamware are a bunch of liars for me. If they continue to do commercials on the XTC mode i will SPAM all Music Boards i know with the truth in the hope that they wont sell one card in future.

goodbye have a nice one.

I have the feeling that some people here smoke to much weed and take things damn cool and easy.

But i had to work for the cash i payed for my CW cards and i wont accept a bunch of peacefull weed smokers that isnt able to wake up Creamwares sleeping developers that are only able to make False Updates that are just EURO/Dollar/yen/ earning Ghosts.

Start smoking less weed and start to fight for your rights as customer.

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:09 pm

yep its too bad it doesnt work.

bye.

Post by **garyb** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:31 pm

xtc mode doesn't work?

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:06 pm

Lighten up mon!

RichElam · Post by **RichElam** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:30 pm

Wow, this is turning out to be quite a rant!

Funny thing is I agree with the original poster, probably because I bought my XTC card under the same pretense, yet I have a very different attitude. I thought it would be a vital, supported part of Creamware's product range. Didn't work out that way, and I honestly don't know why.

The UAD-1 and Powercore do the same thing as my XTC card; provide hardware assisted processing of effects and synths. For some reason their users seem content with those products. I own one of each, and I can say that the forums don't have the schism seen here. The reality is that SFP users and XTC users were buying into two very different products.

I would think that XTC as a product has the greater potential mass appeal. All it requires is that people use the CW plugins in the familiar environment of their existing audio software. You can use whatever other plugins or cards you have while you're at it. This fits my needs exactly. SFP requires a larger investment of time and results in a lot of overlap in functionailty for people who intend to keep using their other software. Yes, it's more powerful, but in a way that doesn't mean much to some users.

Having said that, I'm OK with XTC as it works now. Version 4.5 essentialy bought my loyalty with all of the extra toys (The S&S package is worth way, way over 98 euro). I wish I didn't have to delve into SFP stuff just so I can use Modular III though.

XTC works fine ,and I think the originl post is partially burdened with the false premise that CW is somehow obligated to suport new operating systems for the lifetime of not only the product, but of the buyer himself.

Post by **garyb** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:34 pm

exactly, but i'd add that scope mode does NOT require that you stop using what you already have. in fact, imho, it makes what's already there more effective and productive.

valis · Post by **valis** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:18 pm

Everytime XTC is discussed, it is pointed out that XTC would seemingly "serve a larger market" since it is VST based. By this logic if Creamware dropped their DSP cards and just made VSTi's they would "serve a larger market" yes?

However its not *their* market.

XTC, much like Noah, was Creamware's attempt to explore an emerging trend at the time. It proved to be a smaller portion of *their* overall market and much like Noah a costly diversion. XTC can be functional if you are willing to do a few things, but as others have pointed out its no longer marketed nor fully supported. Many companies won't even return emails personally for products that are end-of-life, and yet Creamware will not only respond to XTC questions but has even released something new for Noah.

And yes, Creamware doesn't have a large development staff to fit the needs of the XTC userbase at the moment.

If you really want a dsp card that works as a 'VST' accellerator and integrates into your sequencer and XTC isn't working for you, there are 2 companies with currently supported products on the market. As a consumer you exercise your choice with your wallet. Flaming us for stating the obvious isn't changing a thing.

RichElam · Post by **RichElam** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:38 pm

Are you responding to me, or the original poster? It was I who mentioned the potential market appeal of XTC, but I certainly didn't flame anyone.

As to your assertion about CW making native VSTi-s, yes I think they would make a boat-load of money. But they would be swimming in the same piracy riddled waters of every other native developer.

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:11 am

My comment about Creawmare and Vsti's not being *their* market was because that's exactly what Ralf has said in the past...that they were pulling back from Noah and other such ventures to focus more on the core strengths of their product. I think that's quite relevant to the discussion here.

Oh, and my response wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, and I certainly wasn't accusing you specifically of flaming. Rather it was a response to the topic in general, and the many threads that have cropped up about it.

No hard feelings I hope

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:19 am

On 2006-01-06 18:42, Tuccos wrote:
...or your really dumb enough for companies like creamware that rip off, cheat their customers like they did with the XTC business.

I got exactly, or to be precise 'more' than I had expected, honestly.

...Why arent you SFP guru´s accept that your arent the only CW customers ?? Who the heck do you guys think you are ???

what makes you so confident that YOU represent the majority of customers ?

I payed almost 1000 Euros for my whole CW setup, should i be quiet now ??

I spent more than 3k, almost half on 3rd party stuff and I don't regret any - which I cannot say about my other software purchases...

...i see Drivers with the Date of 2002, i see nothing good that creamware did to the Hardware i bought.

in our office an Oracle network database driver written 1988 served well from MacOS 7 to OSX 10.3 - there is no need to update something that works.

HT isn't exactly considered a groundbreaking and 'must have' technology - it certainly will NOT bring performance to the front as advertised.
I bet that Steinberg's fiddling for a few benchmark points is the true source of your problems (but that's me personal).
The CWA driver has to work WITH the sequencer (which it obviously did for years) - someday the sequencer maker changed conditions for an obscure 'advantage' (read marketing).
That's why I mentioned the database driver - you CAN write complient code, if you qualify...

PROBLEMS from day 1 !
Installation > Missing Files everywhere ! Phonecall Creamware > We know about it, copy the files manually.
Why do i need to use the install routine if i have to copy all the files Manually later ????

what else can they do ?
It is a Windows 2K/XP feature and has nothing to do with SFP.
If I install my 3.1 under Win2k I experience some of this, too - the same installer under Win98 works flawless.

I have the feeling that some people here smoke to much weed and take things damn cool and easy.

you can bet on the latter - that way I've saved more deadlines than you have VSTIs, but I prefer to smoke cigars, favourite brands are Punch from Cuba (hey - I support the last true communist system on this planet...) and Macanudo* from the DomRep

*they've an amazing vintage series with tobacco from 1997

cheers, Tom

ps I understand some of your points regarding marketing, but that's what marketing is about. It's not CWA specific (you may look for what's suggested about 'multiclient' drivers in ads and what those finally can do...) - and afaik XTC was a pre-HT release (but don't nail me on my memory)

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2006-01-07 04:21 ]