New Apple Powermacs -- no PCI

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:49 am

Apple's just announced new PowerMacs. They include two dual-core CPUs -- giving you four CPUs -- and PCI Express. As we all know, PCI Express eats up legacy PCI bandwidth, so Apple's not including PCI at all (as far as I can tell from the specs). I'm not exactly sure what this means for CreamWare. PCs are moving onto PCI Express, thus disabling Scope, and Apple is ditching PCI altogether. CreamWare's going to have to start working on PCI-E cards or a FireWire box pretty soon, or else new computers are going to leave Scope behind forever.

I just hope that whatever new thing CreamWare comes out with is backwards compatible with Scope devices!

Shayne

Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:35 pm

[quote]
Apple's just announced new PowerMacs. They include two dual-core CPUs -- giving you four CPUs -- and PCI Express. As we all know, PCI Express eats up legacy PCI bandwidth, so Apple's not including PCI at all (as far as I can tell from the specs). I'm not exactly sure what this means for CreamWare.
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Since the release of G5 and the 3.3 volt slots and the OSX. Creamware is not really into the picture of this type of setup.

for the future of things (minimax ASB/Profit 5 and the extended family of boxes) there should be no problem with any MAC or PC
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[quote]
PCs are moving onto PCI Express, thus disabling Scope, and Apple is ditching PCI altogether.
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Apple is around 20% of the pc market so creamware should be content with the remaining 80%.

it will be few more years before PCI slots are completely replaced. You can still buy brand new motherboard with ISA Slots (2 or 3 slots even) after 5 years of ISA cards are off the market.
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CreamWare's going to have to start working on PCI-E cards or a FireWire box pretty soon, or else new computers are going to leave Scope behind forever.
I just hope that whatever new thing CreamWare comes out with is backwards compatible with Scope devices!

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If you have the right computer now. It will serve your existing creamware setup for the next 4-5 years.

Whatever creamware decide to do in the next 2 year I am sure it will comply with the standard motherboards of the time. And I am hoping it will not be confined to a any of these (PCI/PCIE/X ) and the smart thing will be to put the new scope generation card in its own box that will work along with your next generation MAC or PC. like the ASB now

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: antar on 2005-10-19 13:40 ]</font>

wolf · Post by **wolf** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:31 pm

btw , is a pci express audio card with 26 outputs available today ? Seems I'm in need of one, as my intention was to get the quad g5 ..

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:34 pm

i wouldn't bother about all this, PCI-Xtreme is just round the corner.

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:45 pm

On 2005-10-19 13:35, antar wrote:
If you have the right computer now. It will serve your existing creamware setup for the next 4-5 years.

Except when I wanted to upgrade my CPU. Finding out that the PCI Express boards are incompatible with Scope, I had to get an AGP nForce3 board...but the old AGP boards aren't compatible with AMD x2 except with a BIOS upgrade, and then things got complicated. When AGP boards are no longer available, we're going to have major problems.

What I'm saying is that CreamWare has to release, sometime within the next 1-2 years, a new generation of Scope cards/boxes that are compatible with new computers AND with older Scope devices.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:54 pm

I guess we'll have to keep an old computer. I use my laptop most of the time these days.

AndreD · Post by **AndreD** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:39 pm

On 2005-10-19 12:49, Shayne White wrote:
As we all know, PCI Express eats up legacy PCI bandwidth, so Apple's not including PCI at all (as far as I can tell from the specs).

That´s not true!
(At least with ASUS P5 AD2 E Pr)
I´ve never had a faster system.

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:36 am

After a quick search on Google, I haven't found anyone else who has released a PCI-Express soundcard either. Even Creative won't do it:

http://www.guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=3005

"Last week we published our review of the SoundBlaster X-Fi Fatality soundcard from Creative Labs. One of the questions that remained to be answered was why Creative decide to go for a PCI only based soundcard, we found out that in the near future there will not be a PCI-Express version of the sound card. Steve Erickson, vice president for Creative's audio products was kind enough to answer this particular question specifically, here's his take:

As far as PCI Express (PCIe) is concerned, which is the next bus, what we found is that the performance of PCIe is truly bad for audio. We are seeing four times degradation on the bus for audio.

PCIe is designed for graphics and high data transfer, but audio sends very small packets and the overhead can be very big! Moving the data across PCIe is much, much higher than PCI. So what we have to do is go back to the drawing board and work on the transport part of the chip and re-design it to add more silicon to overcome some of the problems we had with PCIe. So for us to come up with a PCIe solution is going to take a while because we have to overcome the problems we're facing with that bus."

[Dated August 30th 2005, so it's not like it's a 2003 thing either.]

So if it's complicated for a simple soundcard like a Soundbastard, imagine the fun it'd be for something like a Scope card.

Sorry, PCIe really isn't going to happen for audio.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: symbiote on 2005-10-20 04:41 ]</font>

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:21 pm

Well, no matter what Creative says, DigiDesign has just announced a PCI-E version of Pro Tools. DigiDesign is infinitely more high-end than Creative, as we all know, and obviously they got the platform to work. So if it can work for Pro Tools, it can certainly work for Scope.

When Apple endorses something, that's what everybody else is going to adopt. PCI is out; PCI-E is in.

Shayne

Post by **garyb** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:03 pm

pretty funny for the fools who bought pci-x macs......

it'll all sort itself out.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:09 am

It's not such a bad thing to stick with what works, is it?

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:25 am

On 2005-10-20 13:21, Shayne White wrote:
When Apple endorses something, that's what everybody else is going to adopt. PCI is out; PCI-E is in.

Sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep

Your not meant to count those or you may fall asleep. It's meant to signify playing follow the leader (not that appaul are leaders)& also severe lack of self contained cognative thought processes.

Anyone going out to buy a new apple right now is throwing away their money IMO, as it's a messy state of affairs in the puta world right now. It would be like buying a brand new car with a new type of petrol engine, when petrol is running out & engines/cars will be forced to change. Computer hardware lifespans are running out. Keep your money (under your bed & not in a bank) & make music with what you have (while it still works)

Computer upgrade paths set out by the Computer industry itsself, stink of everyone being ripped off just to TEST a generation of hardware, while a generationn or 2 are still sitting waiting to be tested BY CONSUMERS

helldriver · Post by **helldriver** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:22 pm

i guess that there will be pci x to pci converters in the future.
but in case creamware develops something new i hope for a portable pulsar with headphones out and all the prettythings pulsar already has.
please make a future pulsar portable because i want to have a mobile studio for live things and recording in different places.

MBSound · Post by **MBSound** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:43 pm

Firewire or LAN???? I would invest in that (having a mac/logic setup)

cheers Marius

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:14 am

On 2005-10-21 09:25, Shroomz wrote:
On 2005-10-20 13:21, Shayne White wrote:
When Apple endorses something, that's what everybody else is going to adopt. PCI is out; PCI-E is in.
...
Anyone going out to buy a new apple right now is throwing away their money IMO, as it's a messy state of affairs in the puta world right now. ...

I can't help, but to me Shayne's quote read with a certain degree of irony - dunno if it was intended...

regarding the 2nd part of the quote I doubt that it is of any relevance, as is the choice of slots in those Apple machines.
Apple's 'consumer' segment is the iPod cashcow and recently those Mini's featuring the PC world's barebone paradigm.
The new fact is that Apple is competetive in the price domain (opposed to earlier years).

All other machines (either servers or workstations in publishing and media production) are nothing but industrial gear that serves an economic purpose and are written off the tax balance.
Either there is a return on investment or not - no more, no less.

in this context the availability of a certain type of slot for a certain type of exotic processing board is less than marginal - even if we love our gear

for each Sharc or Motorola DSP board in audio they sell at least a hundred for telecom purpose...

cheers, Tom

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:09 am

On 2005-10-19 20:54, braincell wrote:
I guess we'll have to keep an old computer. I use my laptop most of the time these days.

Moved my scope cards into a 2nd box over a year ago now. While this isn't as elegant for those who are mixing entirely in Scope (I mix in analog) I have to say for my needs this really opened up the power of my Creamware cards for more specific tasks.

However, I definately agree the Scope line won't be nearly as viable for NEW users if its required to run it in a 2nd PC (changes the nature of the 'soundcard' aspect quite a bit) even if this is a great way for people who already own the cards to continue to leverage the investment and use the Scope tools they know & love. Its obvious that *eventually* Creamware will need a new product, but is the time right NOW?

Keep in mind though that PCI-X was nowhere near *new* when Apple decided to incorporate it, it just wasn't found outside of server class motherboards before then. It is a shame that voltage conversion for our boards isn't as straightforward as it is for other audio card makers, but PCI-X on Apple definately didn't "kill" Scope, and now PCI-e...

The only stated use for the extra slots on Apple's site is to allow the installation of "a PCI Express graphics card in any PCI Express slot — enabling a single Power Mac G5 to support four, six, or even eight displays." Digidesign HD is nowhere near the price of a Scope card (or three), so suggesting that since they have gone PCI-e so must Creamware is a flawed argument. People who purchase new HD systems tend to invest in an ENTIRE system at once. And while there are gigabit networking PCI-e adaptors and SATA & SCSI RAID PCI-e adaptors on the market, this is hardly something intended for mainstream or even (DAW-class) workstation consumption so it doesn't really point to mainstream adoption yet.

Its possible that Apple intended to future-proof current Powermacs but I consider it more likely that their X-Serve boxes are selling well enough to warrant a move from PCI-X to PCI-e because it will make a difference in the corporate server market. Having a shared motherboard layout across the entire Powermac & X-Serve line makes too much sense financially. The statements in this thread stating that Jobs & Co. intend the 'Powermac' user to rely on networking, firewire and usb2 for their expansion 'card' needs seem right on the mark to me. They'd rather you build a Logic-node network than invest in Creamware (or Powercore)...

In my opinion, we'll have to wait for a few more ASB boxes to enter the market, and a few financial cycles to occur before we'll see hints of whatever exists in Creamware's R&D office. Even if they do have working prototypes at the moment, given another few years of R&D things could change quite a bit both for Creamware's offering(s) and for the general lay of the computing world.

edmann · Post by **edmann** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:53 am

IMO the whole Apple thing has been in the process of dying for a while now...actually beginning with OSX. I was a die-hard apple fan - now I would never ever purchase one again. It is just a vibe thing - they are manipultaing their customer base bigtime - many follow along just because of brand name, and they know that. I am no PC fan either - but with XP I softened a lot on that. Apple is a gadget company that's keeps its customers in a form of kidnap as long as anyone wants to play along (which is often for good reason - to protect their recent large investment in apple product). When you have (1) company that is the sole source of both the hardware and OS - that is bad news., as in this PCI/no PCI thread. At least in Windows one has a huge variety of manufacturer options.

1 example really stuck out for me last year when apple staged a joint effor with pepsi cola to sell their pods...jesus god rewind back to those 1984 "introduce the apple.we are not part oif the system" ads and then FF to the obesity epidemic that is well documented with high fructose cord syrup being sighted as the primary culprit (and primary calorie ingrediant in pepsi)

perhaps you get the picture - I certainly do.

(this is written on a mac g4 in OS 9.2.2, housing a SCOPe card)

best wishes

Ed

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:07 pm

I certainly do remember those ads from 84 and in fact it was that cute little beige box that dragged me into the Apple business.
I've sold and supported Macs for > 10 years until I switched to developement and freelance consulting services - still 90% Apple stuff.

I kind of agree with your basic sentiments, but it is completely beyond any question that this company wouldn't exist anymore (in competetive form) if they'd kept their old strategy.

There was a time Apple pumped 30% of their revenues into R&D, and it was the time we made (at least) a 30% profit with each Apple system, my personal share on each sale was 10%.
Go ask your next PC dealer, afaik today they have about 8% average...
Times (and customers) have changed, as the Hartmann story shows there's neither support for quality nor respect for outstanding creativity.

It's not Apple but those with the wallet who finally define a product philosophy.
Bill Gates (w. heritage from a business home) knew this from the beginning - Steve Jobs had to learn it, partially the hard way.

In the early 90s we've discussed it up and down with top executives from both Apple and customers and noone had a clue why such a superior product had such horrible sales in the corporate domain.

Today I know it... (or at least I guess)
Macs were as you liked them - easy to understand, reliable, almost no education and service required. The Intel world suffered under Windows 3...

But would you expect that an executive from a corporate IT department supports a system that makes 90% of his (or her) staff superfluous ?
THAT's the true story behind Apple's early financial 'problems', which were not exactly frightening, but at least present to a degree.

I'm not writing stories here - we never sold any courses to our customers (one of the sales arguments was that no more than a couple of hours training on the job per employe would be required) and we did support at least 150 systems in a radius of 30 miles with just 2 support people, no kidding.

honestly, the majority of customers doesn't even want a solution - they only need someone who listens to them, shares their sentiments and gives them some feeling of importance or power - THEN they'll sign any contract you present to them...
it's that simple and that stupid

on the other hand I recently heard that (a significant part of) one of the local newspapers is still produced on Macs running OS-7 (!)
and I might add that I just aquired an ASUS TUSL2-C Intel815 board as it runs the old Pulsars best.
The latest isn't always the greatest and 'true' innovations are completely out of sight imho.

nevertheless Apple did a remarkable job on it's version of a 'unix-like' OS.
Simple enough for the average user and enough complexity to make the consultants happy - with growing demands on hardware resources to keep the factory running...

cheers, Tom

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:22 am

On 2005-10-28 15:07, astroman wrote:
on the other hand I recently heard that (a significant part of) one of the local newspapers is still produced on Macs running OS-7 (!)
and I might add that I just aquired an ASUS TUSL2-C Intel815 board as it runs the old Pulsars best.

Been trying to locate one for under $80 for a while now.... (they're all overpriced on ebay due to people needing replacements for legacy systems). I'd rather keep my Scope cards on that than a P4 system anyday (since my scope box is secondary to my main DAW).

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:16 am

I paid 60 Euro including 192 MB, Celeron 1200 and a ATI Rage MB...

but while looking for it on eBay I repeatingly found the same bidders on whatever offer included THAT mobo

cheers, Tom