OSX and Linux status update

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:32 pm

On 2005-08-22 16:32, phyx wrote:
...
I now have a rudimentary driver written, or rather a skeleton of a driver for FreeBSD.
...

no, you don't - you do not even qualify for that, since you're too ignorant (or unwilling) to understand what's written above...

to squeeze any fart out of that card, you MUST be able to load the DSPs - there's no hardwired routing afaik.
A software module in SFP provides exactly exactly that loading service.
But this module accepts only specially encrypted DSP code.

You don't have the alogorithm and CWA will not provide (or reveal) it either, so what ?

It has been explained more than a dozen times that a 'driver' is the least relevant part of a Scope port to I-dunno-what. It's no more than a little IO-glue.
If there are people who volunteer for CWA to do the Linux port for free (and also support OSX as good as they can) - and CWA first accepts and later refuses the project due to 'intellectual property issues'...
then it's very likely that the developers have to be informed about details that reveal how the protection works - or allow to guess it's mechanism.

why don't you implement one of Analog Devices prototyping boards in Linux ?
they are affordable and well documented with lots of possibilities for creative minds

cheers, Tom

phyx · Post by **phyx** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:12 pm

On 2005-08-22 18:32, astroman wrote:
no, you don't - you do not even qualify for that, since you're too ignorant (or unwilling) to understand what's written above...

to squeeze any fart out of that card, you MUST be able to load the DSPs - there's no hardwired routing afaik.
A software module in SFP provides exactly exactly that loading service.
But this module accepts only specially encrypted DSP code.

You don't have the alogorithm and CWA will not provide (or reveal) it either, so what ?

It seems you are the ignorant one or are refusing to listen... I am not porting SFP nor am I modifying it in anyway.

I do not need to know the encryption algorythms nor do I need the sources to SFP.

I am simply writing a kernel level driver for FreeBSD so that the "Authentic and unmodified" SFP 4.0 can access the hardware while running on the Wine layer under FreeBSD.

Wine will run all windoze applications (I got it to run Nuendo and Wavelab) but there isn't a driver framework, hence I must write a driver natively so that SFP will run under Wine.

gustav · Post by **gustav** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:00 am

Phyx : good luck - I hope it could work so tell us when you did some testing

Btw : Its amazing how emotional is the reaction of all this people here.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:01 am

On 2005-08-22 19:12, phyx wrote:
... I am simply writing a kernel level driver for FreeBSD so that the "Authentic and unmodified" SFP 4.0 can access the hardware while running on the Wine layer under FreeBSD.
...

this is pure nonsense - because if it would be true then Wine would outperform VMWare in that context (and everyone buying the latter be an idiot who throw his cash out of the window)

Wine can only provide (at least a part of) the Windows programming API and not the complete machine state.

any call to a single 'non-Windows registered' function will crash the system - and one doesn't need to be an expert to predict that in such a complex system there will be tons of such 'deviations' from the rule.

of course you (and no other programmer involved in a port) needs to deal with the encryption interface on source level.
But at a certain part of 'loading' the card this module is inevitable - and it's position and calling context possibly illustrate a lot about how the protection works - and that's why CWA is so restrictive (my guess)

@gustav
words read differently for everyone, and it's nice to put a little gas into the flame for entertainment sake, but there really isn't much 'emotion' involved (at least not from my side)

the item has been discussed almost to death, so some sarcasm may apply...

cheers, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-08-23 09:03 ]

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:25 am

Hmm Tom, you really need to sit down and spend some time with the BSD OSes, your *nix practical experience seriously needs to be updated =P.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:45 am

OMG, not really

you're kidding, aren't you ? I try to avoid that as good as it gets.

I made my way through an O'Reilly page of someone introducing some Wine hands-on... shudder.

that thing is capable to setup a complete virtual machine ??? including physical IO ?
the dude hardly managed to get a card game running and on a compatibility page almost any app I choose was either 'untested' or had flaws.
what point do I miss here ?

cheers, Tom

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:12 am

Yeah. I meant, like. Sit down in front of BSD. Not in front of some book or some page. That's what I meant.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:09 am

well, you could have a point there

counting pieces together...
there will be Intel based Macs, our office will switch to OSX early next year, my data processing front end is Prolog based, the language's manufacturer doesn't have (or plan) a Mac version, the native front end is Win32 API based, I'm currently condemned to web based Javascript coding

to let the Macs communicate ...
seems worth a deeper peek at (Dar)Wine

cheers, Tom

gustav · Post by **gustav** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:41 pm

sorry astroman
my words were misleading (my bad english)
I wanted to say that your words seem to me very insulting -
and there is an other aspect I can't tell you other than in french : peremptoire - take a look in a dictionnary if you can - I can't traduce it.

If you're right you can say you were right, but
if you're wrong about all this winthings, I would appreciate to read a long post about your feeling about writing many posts for nothing.

Bye

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:46 pm

indeed Gustav, those words even were intended to have a 'sharp' sound - but I don't think I've crossed a certain line of respect that should be kept in any kind of discussion.

read the previous page for reference: Phyx even admitted (written and in public) to have broken his SFP license agreement, made a couple of statements that can only be interpreted as a lack of knowledge how the card and it's software operates.
He gets some additional information which he ignores and comments 'what are you talking about?'

this style doesn't exactly qualify someone as a developer (imho) and hence that sarcastic note - it's no big deal.

Checking the french word I probably know what you want to express - it's not uncommon, but nevertheless misses the point.

My 'position' is as questionable as anyone else's.

I have exactly given the reasons why I'm convinced that the idea will not work - and to assume something as complex as SFP will run under Wine, while other people are happy to start a single application is at best adventurous

I will always try to work out arguments as good and convincing as I can, sometimes even against my own belief - it's in a buddhism tradition.
even if they turn out to be wrong those lines are not wasted as they will provide a background information to the question.
as you can see above that simple sidenote by Symbiote even triggered a useful chain of thoughts beyond the scope of scope

I just downloaded a FreeBSD.iso...

cheers, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-08-23 14:55 ]

Post by **hubird** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:24 pm

a bottle of Wine on the table?
if I only knew what Wine is...

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-08-23 21:30 ]

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:41 pm

Awesome!

Post by **hubird** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:17 pm

yeah, it reads quite different if you don't know that

phyx · Post by **phyx** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:30 pm

On 2005-08-23 05:00, gustav wrote:
Phyx : good luck - I hope it could work so tell us when you did some testing

Btw : Its amazing how emotional is the reaction of all this people here.

Thanks, ... What I am doing isn't that hard, it's just time consuming because I need to learn more about hardware programming... I only know the basics of C, php, and perl

---

Yes, most noobs are very emotional online. It's the disembodied effect that impersonal communication has. ... or a lack of nature's subjective reality and an overdose of the Modern World's objective reality.

phyx · Post by **phyx** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:39 pm

On 2005-08-23 16:24, hubird wrote:
a bottle of Wine on the table?
if I only know what Wine is...

http://www.winehq.org

W.I.N.E = "Wine Is Not an Emulator"

[ This Message was edited by: phyx on 2005-08-23 19:39 ]

phyx · Post by **phyx** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:45 pm

On 2005-08-23 09:01, astroman wrote:
this is pure nonsense - because if it would be true then Wine would outperform VMWare in that context (and everyone buying the latter be an idiot who throw his cash out of the window)

Wine does out perform VMWare.

Wine is not an emulator. Windows programs run no faster nor slower then they would natively on windows.

Nuendo 3.0 runs great on Wine, so does Wavelab 5.... I havn't gotten VSTi to work yet... but that isn't a loss.

Even Rome: Total War runs perfectly, and thats a fairly hefty directX game.

Post by **garyb** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:44 pm

and still no music made.....

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:25 pm

Not true. This thread *is* music.

But it's encrypted, so you need some WINE to find it melodious!

hands the banjo to garyb and the harmonica to hubird and starts singing "oh my Linux left me for another OS, my Mac done got sunk in a pool of cess, oh yodel-odel-odel-oh I'm so lonesome I could lay my head down and reboot the kernel and die..."

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:24 am

On 2005-08-23 22:44, garyb wrote:
and still no music made.....

maybe - but if the sh*t really works, I got a pretty cool solution for my developement system that even spares me a machine and a Win2k license...

cheers, Tom

Post by **garyb** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:41 am

i.m no programmer, but quotes like "But for those applications that do work and from a purely subjective point of view, performance is good. There is no obvious performance loss, except for some slow graphics due to unoptimized Wine code and X11 driver translation performance loss (which can be a problem sometimes, though)." and "Now to be frank, performance is not yet a Wine priority", from the wine faq, i'd almost bet money it won't work. period.