News from Creamware - Status of the Company and Scope

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:12 am

@symbiote : when I talked about the G2 Engine , it was about the lowest cost as possible box solution : no screen, knobs, blinks ... etc. also like PoCo FireWire or Waves' APA.

Upon rethinking, if I were in their boots :

Only one box model to start with, having around 5 new but not newest chips aboard ( to reduce delays, costs, unforeseen problems ), ins - outs, RAM ...
Price around 1000 Euros if possible for the not soo rich hobbyists / semi-pros so that sales can start rapidly.
Then as money comes in, making SRB boxes without ins-outs etc to lower costs ...
Then making making SRB boxes with fresher chips, then putting the newest chips in the " Master Box "
Maybe some PCI cards later when the new standard will become established.

Concerning FireWire vs USB2, I guess it's quite a dumb idea technically and financially to have both onboard and be able to switch to circumvent potential problems with ones setup ?
Just to be sure !

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:49 am

On 2005-07-15 07:36, decimator wrote:
In the meantime, I still think the ASB sounds different than the Scope ( judging from the sounds files )
No shop around to test it though ...
And I'am still stunned there were no legal issues with Moog.

The only thing that would be an issue would be the name Moog, and CreamWare hasn't used that. Nothing else would be a problem except the 4-pole filter, which Moog patented but never enforced. Of course, everyone uses a 4-pole filter now, so it isn't a problem. The look and feel of the MiniMoog was never patented.

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:12 am

Thanks for the infos Shayne !
I thought naively he tolerated the various soft emus as long as they didn't became hardware and threaten directly his products.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:32 am

I love Scope but IMHO if an analogue synth is good enough, it can never be threatened by a digital version...

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:20 am

Agreed, but the wallet not !

narly · Post by **narly** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:23 am

On 2005-07-14 10:33, decimator wrote:
Concerning the Minimax ASB : I'am quite surprised by the sound demos since I don't see how I could reproduce this with the Scope Minimax, if the algorythms were modified...

I was just wondering what aspects of the ASB demos would be un-achievable w/ Scope MiniMax? They sound possible to me, but then again, I haven't tried to duplicate it either...

MikeRaphone · Post by **MikeRaphone** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:27 am

@AndreD:
nevertheless you'll have to go to PCIe sooner or later with the cards if you want to keep the product, right?

Post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:28 am

if PCIE is the upcoming PC standard late next year. Creamware won't have any other choice.

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:42 am

On 2005-07-15 11:28, antar wrote:
if PCIE is the upcoming PC standard late next year. Creamware won't have any other choice.

That's the ratio of my idea of an external box that remains the same , with a prprietary hyperfast connector to a series of different adapters for any type of interface, firewire, pcmcia and all the present and future pci and no-pci busses, that can be cheaply produced and bought, to move fast on any platform with the same "card".

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:54 pm

@narly : the sounds demos of the ASB are coming from presets from the Scope version ( scattered among the various banks ) and even with some minor tweaks I couldn't reproduce the ASB sound.
The sound is overall brighter / warmer / more detailed and the envelopes snappier ...
Well, A/B test the presets and tell me what you think.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:22 pm

@ alfonso: indeed, and I think something like MADI could such an audio interface:
"MADI, a multichannel audio interface, offers 64 channels of 24 bit audio at a sample rate of up to 48 kHz and 32 channels at up to 96 kHz. Transmission is done via a single line, either coaxial with BNC plugs or with fiber cable. In both cases, more than 100 meters in cable length can be achieved"
more on http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2003/MADI.html and http://www.rme-audio.com/english/madi/hdspmadi.htm
That's 3-4 MADI cables for a single Masterverb, if they'd made it boxed without onboard memory

narly · Post by **narly** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:09 am

@decimator

Out of the box I see what you mean. Sonically, these are the same patches but the spectrum is definitely different. I've only toyed w/ "Polyglide" thus far - running Minimax @ 96kHz and a bit of EQ makes Scope pretty comparable. However, w/ 18 DSP I can only get Minimax to 4 voices @ 96kHz! Apparently there is a lot of power in ASB processors!

But, at 44.1kHz (my typical) there's definitely a big difference in harmonic definition. Anyway, my short Scope Minimax mock of the Polyglide demo is <a href="http://users.adelphia.net/~b1114p/studi ... yglide.mp3"> here</a>. I haven't really looked into envelope timings or other variances based on the ASB demos. Just thought I'd offer what I'd done so far

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:07 am

Minimax' filter does not fit on a single chip of your dsp card at 96kHz, that's the reason why Minimax doesn't do 96kHz. Per documentation - or did you load it at that sample rate?

narly · Post by **narly** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:24 am

It loaded @ 96, afaik (maybe actually it wasn't?). Rendered output to project set to 96 and then exported 256k mp3. I was provided the DSP overload message w/ option to re-optimize project if I went over 4 voices though...

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:37 am

There's another issue here: Apple. Apple hasn't yet switched over to PCI-E, and we don't know when they're going to. If CreamWare came out with new cards, they might not work in most Macs. PCs have had PCI-E for a while now, and I think it's getting fairly popular.

This is, of course, provided that CWA is going to develop OSX software for the new "Scope"....

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:47 am

there's no point in pcie at this point. pcix is backwards compatible and pci is going to be supported for years. at this point, the only thing nessessary is a 3.3v version(currently the card is 5v). that would make is compatible with everything out there. i remind you that although we always want more power, there is still no comparable product if scope is used to it's full potential.

eventually, there will need to be a change if cards are still used to whatever the best and most standard bus exists as pci will have run it's course and may not be available in the majority of machines(like floppies). by that point however, the standard may be something that we have not been shown yet.

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:19 am

Hey good job narly !

Next challenge try it on chorused guitar, soft bell, repeater lead and such ...

The differences are less obvious in the pure bass department.
Yes, you can use Minimax at 96 kHz, even if the filter is not functioning as it should you can always get cleaner sound ( less spectral foldover ) but whatever they did based on enhanced algos or thanks to newer chips, I find that ASB has an edge ! ears open for the next to come !

I really favor a box for CWA since you can plug it anywhere : towers and laptops ... wide money rake !

Concerning connections : choose the one with the less problems / glitches due to other devices connected, gather stories and feedback ... which one will do best with even a good motherboard under load of both USB and FW heavy traffic ?

When the next PCI standard will become really widespread and PCI will be like dying ISA years ago on MOBOs, cards could be back.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: decimator on 2005-07-16 12:20 ]</font>

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:49 pm

On 2005-07-15 00:56, AndreD wrote:
(...)
..but don´t expect the total flexibility of scope..

...c'est dommage...

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:54 pm

My only very, very, very little problem with ASB boxes: no digital inputs/outputs...

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:00 pm

A CW dreambox:

- Scope Platform in the box
- Firewire 800 connection to the PCs...
- RAM expandable with DDR RAM slots...
- DSP expandable...
- Digital i/o expandable...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-07-16 17:01 ]</font>