OSX and Linux status update

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:35 pm

Immanuel,

the Linux version would be _unsupported_, anyway. Send a support request containing the word "Linux", and be sure to get no answer...

Except, maybe, for integrators and such.

And that's common practice for Linux - RME did help writing drivers for their Digi and Hammerfall boards, as did SEK'D, if memories serve. But neither of those companies _support_ Linux - if you need help, ask on a forum, bug your distro supplier, or file an ALSA bug report, but don't bother the hardware vendor - we're used ot it, and that's a lesson every Linux noob needs to learn. Granted, there are companies that really support Linux, like ATI, Nvidia, Tyan, Adaptec and such. But that's mostly for high-end workstation and server systems, not for end-user products...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wsippel on 2005-01-09 20:28 ]</font>

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:03 pm

ok, one "problem" solved

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:30 am

Just got word from Frank, they'll talk to some Linux/ OSX dev they've already worked with at NAMM, and may come back to our first suggestion: _really_ open-source as much as possible (maybe everything except for Scope OS), and provide Scope OS as binaries+header (the second-best solution I can think of). That means, no private mailing lists and invitation-only membership, but true cooperation in the usual Linux way.

We'll continue investigating this option shortly after NAMM - I'll keep you updated!

Willie

Post by **hubird** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:58 am

Well, that's nice, things are moving at least

Thanks for keeping us informed

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:09 pm

3ms latency as reported in Scope is actually the ASIO latency *plus* the latency through the PCI card itself. The computer is going to report 1.5ms latency at the lowest setting. Of course, in Windows, that eats up huge amounts of CPU.

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:29 pm

Just made a few experiments regarding the latency on my machine: Using a single Opteron 140 on a Tyan Tiger K8W board, 1 GB Corsair RAM (the fastest 400MHz REG ECC modules available), and a Terratec EWX 24/96 soundcard (uses the same drivers as the MAudio Delta on Linux), kernel 2.6.9-gentoo-r12, latest ALSA drivers and JACK server, realtime-lsm 0.11 kernel module (gives realtime capabilies to specific processes), everything compiled in 64bit, using only save optimizations:

JACK is set to realtime, nice-level 0 (default, maximum is -20), 48kHz, 32 frames/period, 2 periods/buffer, full duplex, no dither -> maximum latency 1.33ms.
Using Hydrogen benchmark, I get about 450 notes polyphony @ 1.33ms (using no effects) 'till the CPU hits 100%, with not a single XRun (buffer underrun).

Remember, the system is still not really tweaked, took about 3 minutes to set this up...

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:46 pm

On 2005-01-14 12:29, wsippel wrote:
kernel 2.6.9-gentoo-r12, latest ALSA drivers and JACK server, realtime-lsm 0.11 kernel module (gives realtime capabilies to specific processes), everything compiled in 64bit, using only save optimizations:

You are a 100% geek

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: samplaire on 2005-01-14 13:47 ]</font>

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:49 pm

Like they say: Geeks are nerds with a life!

Post by **hubird** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:07 pm

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:49 pm

Good luck with the Linux. Now let's shut up and make music.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:58 pm

I really don't wanna spoil the party, but what are you're talking about ?
latency ?
a TransientDesignered signal is 0.8 ms late
0.1 ms is easily noticable if it's an (identical) signal pair and one half is delayed for that amount
so when it comes to precision, it's all in vain anyway - either it's sample accurate or not worth bothering

and probably the only thing that makes boys brag 'mine is smaller'

cheers, Tom
respect for Willi's setup, though

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:21 pm

Hey Tom,

don't destroy that nice illusion!

But really, JACK _should_ be pretty much sample-accurate. And my post was intended only as a small taste of what's possible with a Linux setup. It's by no means a real benchmark, as I have nothing to compare it to...

For the JACK specs, maybe you're interested in the design documentations:
http://jackit.sourceforge.net/docs/design/

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:38 pm

exactly - that's why I mentioned the 'brag' example

jules · Post by **jules** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:20 am

Right! that's it...

6 to 12 month (according to my mood): that's what I'm giving to CW to do something about OSX, or to show some ACTIVE interest.
After that, bye.... I will sell my card with regret, but I'll move on. G5+OSX, period.
I'm fed up to be stuck in "OS9 stone age" (I'm very nasty, I know). Switching back and forth between systems and applications is not a possible option anymore if I don't want to waste the little time I've got to make music.

That's my point of view, but all the CW users that I know are thinking the same (or have already moved on).

That's evolution: adapt or die

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:59 am

I'd rather call it the way of the Lemmings...

cheers, Tom - sometimes even more nasty

jules · Post by **jules** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:59 pm

!!!

Yep, but the for lemmings, there's an ecological reason. When the rodents population size have dropped significantly, it allows surrounding environemental ressources to go back to balance.
Unfortunately, softwares grow more slowly in the meadows if you've go less "rodent-users-developers"

Population genetics of "rodent-users-developers" is something tricky... Especially in the creamware ecosystem...

Ok, I'm loosing it...

MBSound · Post by **MBSound** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:51 am

All rodents aside, any news from CWA towards the OSX/linux-developers. I must say, i'm not depending on the CWA products for my income. But what if you would be in that position, having logic pro software running on a mac. Not being able to update to OSX and not being able to update to logic pro 7. All because a few years ago you bought a very nice peace of hardware, Pulsar II, with luna 8 in 8 out breakout.(my setup) Already looking forward to OSX from 2001 and on. I'd say that really SUCKS. And what's most anoying is that CWA is not particularly informative on the progress of the process. The website still says 'no firm release date, we're working on it'. If there'd be some activity-monitor for the creamware users who want to switch to OSX, that would at least build some confidence, that there is actualy something being done for us mac-users. So I have to agree with Jules. Maybe I won't even be able to sell my Pulsar and it ends up in a closet. To bad because, I really think it has great potential to grow with the mac-view on music/film-production software. Time for some serious action, i'd say. Grow with industry and stay alive!

Cheers anyway.

MBSound · Post by **MBSound** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:39 am

Sorry about the rodents, man.

cheers

CroNiX · Post by **CroNiX** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:05 pm

Im not sure why any company who is trying to rebuild itself would enter into new os domains. Linux is a nightmare to support because there are so many different versions of it. Can you think of how difficult it would be for tech support to guide everybody through this process? Dont get me wrong, I love linux (Slackware v10 here), but I would say that most people hacking around in linux dont know what the hell they are doing. Im sure the people reading this in here know what they are doing, but most people playing with linux dont.

Im glad that Creamware has revamped itself and I hope they are on their way to prosperity. I hope they dont have to waste resources trying to support a technical nightmare.

Creamware would have to release their source code so each flavor of unix can compile it for its kernel. Why would any company do this? Would you release all of the individual tracks on a song you composed so that the end user can reassemble them however they want? I dont think so. Your song that you want people to hear is the final mix that you intended to be heard.

The other way for Creamware to do linux would be to have SFP precompiled for each flavor of unix (and there are more and more everyday being developed) which, again, would require more and more resources.

Just my opinion,

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:37 am

On 2005-02-05 21:05, DementiaT wrote:
Linux is a nightmare to support because there are so many different versions of it. Can you think of how difficult it would be for tech support to guide everybody through this process?

I think I have understood that CW would put nill time in supporting Linux, except for the development to get started.

I would say that most people hacking around in linux dont know what the hell they are doing.

It's starting to dawn little by little. Have no clue what I'm doing, but hey it works. (Isn't that how mac users do it usually;) Oki, I had to do a lot of reading to get it all to work, but after a month on the platform it's workeable. So I'll stick to Demudi for some time now, this is fun

I hope they dont have to waste resources trying to support a technical nightmare.

Wasn't the Linux community self-supporting? To my knowing, Wsippel would coordinate the project in his free time, and he seems to be quite close to Frank Hund, merely reducing the work for CW to putting the rules on paper.