I didn't feel Grok was complaigning!
What a strange answer to his doubt !!!!!!
I totally agree with your point of view, Grok
The fact is (for me) CW seems " LOST",
but the wortihest is (for me...), CW seems
to be under-managed!
OSX and Linux status update
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hubird
Sure Grok was complaining, what else was he doing? 
Nothing wrong with complaining in itself, my problem (and I guess Samplaire's also) is the style of it.
Good complaining shows you take into account the facts (i.c. of the latest devellopments).
And the main fact was (for the newer members) that a huge insolvency had occurred by a discrepance between software and hardware devellopment of the Noah.
The hardware was payed already, but the software couln't be placed in it yet, and so sellings where blocked.
That, along with the global recession and the fact that Creamware still is a relative small company with restricted resources, caused the strain.
For those who are interested, it's all discussed on planetz, easy to find
I would call Groks post an eruption of frustration rather than a complaint.
It's useless this way, as it just says, I want this and that, and I want it now, and Creamware's policy in product releases sucks and frustrates the needs of many Scope users.
This needs further explanation, and it doesn't show any consideration of recent devellopments.
I myself consider the new products as an understandable move, I said that before, because these things were relative easy to create.
You may think different about that, the fact however is that CreamwareAudio has decided that that was the best move to do at the moment.
I can accept that, but it also inspired me to what I've posted above.
If there's one moment to do an 'official' announcement here that OSX has full attention now at Creamware, then it is now.
Waiting longer will undoubtly cause a massive loss of Apple users, as it's getting more and more problematic to stay on OS9.2.2 and on G4.
Only if we get a clear sign from CreamwareAudio that OSX support is the next new thing, most of us will be encouraged to wait for that.
That's why I asked mr Frank Hund to give us something, we've been brave too long
still argueing, cheers
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-01-02 21:27 ]</font>
Nothing wrong with complaining in itself, my problem (and I guess Samplaire's also) is the style of it.
Good complaining shows you take into account the facts (i.c. of the latest devellopments).
And the main fact was (for the newer members) that a huge insolvency had occurred by a discrepance between software and hardware devellopment of the Noah.
The hardware was payed already, but the software couln't be placed in it yet, and so sellings where blocked.
That, along with the global recession and the fact that Creamware still is a relative small company with restricted resources, caused the strain.
For those who are interested, it's all discussed on planetz, easy to find
I would call Groks post an eruption of frustration rather than a complaint.
It's useless this way, as it just says, I want this and that, and I want it now, and Creamware's policy in product releases sucks and frustrates the needs of many Scope users.
This needs further explanation, and it doesn't show any consideration of recent devellopments.
I myself consider the new products as an understandable move, I said that before, because these things were relative easy to create.
You may think different about that, the fact however is that CreamwareAudio has decided that that was the best move to do at the moment.
I can accept that, but it also inspired me to what I've posted above.
If there's one moment to do an 'official' announcement here that OSX has full attention now at Creamware, then it is now.
Waiting longer will undoubtly cause a massive loss of Apple users, as it's getting more and more problematic to stay on OS9.2.2 and on G4.
Only if we get a clear sign from CreamwareAudio that OSX support is the next new thing, most of us will be encouraged to wait for that.
That's why I asked mr Frank Hund to give us something, we've been brave too long
still argueing, cheers
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-01-02 21:27 ]</font>
Sure, I got no style and english is not my language. Would I'd wrote in french I could have been more stylish and detailed.
Yes, I'm utterly frustrated, and certainly not the only one.
Yes these delays for Linux and OSX aren't understandables from my user point of view. Especially when knowing it could have cost nothing to CW.
The loss of Apple users has already begun some times ago.
Noah was so (choose: stupid/fucked up/crazy/underpowered/technologically obsolete) that practically no one has bought it. Noah has cost some money to Creamware. And some very big delays for SFP4 and TripleDAT (!) that could have cost to Creamware some loss of confidence of its consumers.
Consider these elements, and you get a great feeling of absurdity. And you begin to loose trust in this company. So, the feeling is a little bit more than frustration, in this case.
Anyway, I will vote with my money, trying to be realistic and taking what I feel are the best options for myself. I consider Linux to be important for me, I will not give up the opportunity to use this OS. Since the begining of Pulsar, the question of Linux drivers was there, and until now I've seen nothing. If I have to put some money on an audio card that supports Linux, it would be unfortunate that this money would not for Creamware. What will happens will happens, so be it. Thanks for the good times anyway.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-01-02 22:11 ]</font>
Yes, I'm utterly frustrated, and certainly not the only one.
Yes these delays for Linux and OSX aren't understandables from my user point of view. Especially when knowing it could have cost nothing to CW.
The loss of Apple users has already begun some times ago.
Noah was so (choose: stupid/fucked up/crazy/underpowered/technologically obsolete) that practically no one has bought it. Noah has cost some money to Creamware. And some very big delays for SFP4 and TripleDAT (!) that could have cost to Creamware some loss of confidence of its consumers.
Consider these elements, and you get a great feeling of absurdity. And you begin to loose trust in this company. So, the feeling is a little bit more than frustration, in this case.
Anyway, I will vote with my money, trying to be realistic and taking what I feel are the best options for myself. I consider Linux to be important for me, I will not give up the opportunity to use this OS. Since the begining of Pulsar, the question of Linux drivers was there, and until now I've seen nothing. If I have to put some money on an audio card that supports Linux, it would be unfortunate that this money would not for Creamware. What will happens will happens, so be it. Thanks for the good times anyway.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-01-02 22:11 ]</font>
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hubird
your seem to be unable to connect your private user point of view ('I want it because I want it and I want it now') to the facts CreamwareAudio has to deal with.
Let's say, they did what you want, and because of that Creamware went bankrupt, what would you say?
Would you be pleased to have linux support, knowing you'll never see any update?
Every step Creamware had to take last half year was extremely important, everything had to be focussed on surviving, true?
Less costs, new revenues, that must have been the ultimate device since the restart, and I hope CWA is at the point to be able to breath again.
If that is happening, I now hope that CWA is able again to make a next step, and indeed, it would be nice if that would be Linux/OSX support.
That's why I invited mr Frank Hund...etc.... etc...
My last word, cheers
Let's say, they did what you want, and because of that Creamware went bankrupt, what would you say?
Would you be pleased to have linux support, knowing you'll never see any update?
Every step Creamware had to take last half year was extremely important, everything had to be focussed on surviving, true?
Less costs, new revenues, that must have been the ultimate device since the restart, and I hope CWA is at the point to be able to breath again.
If that is happening, I now hope that CWA is able again to make a next step, and indeed, it would be nice if that would be Linux/OSX support.
That's why I invited mr Frank Hund...etc.... etc...
My last word, cheers
-
hubird
(edit, refers to pre-last post, Grok )
yes, and this thread has made clear that there's the apparently complicating factor of code leaking, Willie himself explained that, and you can't have missed that.
The weighting of both risks - as greatly described by Willie - is totally up to CWA, tho I like to read about arguments here, to get a better understanding of these things and so of CWA.
I myself as a user can just try to add horse power in the direction of OSX devellopment, and that's what I'm doing in this thread.
This doesn't mean I expect CWA to do an anouncement tomorrow just because I'm asking for it.
I'm just pressing
And I'll see what happens, the more we stay pressing together, the more CWA will understand it's time.
A meeting here, a discussion there, at CWA's, and suddenly Frank shows up here
Take it easy, but keep (helping) pressing
cheers:-)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-01-02 23:15 ]</font>
)yes, and this thread has made clear that there's the apparently complicating factor of code leaking, Willie himself explained that, and you can't have missed that.
The weighting of both risks - as greatly described by Willie - is totally up to CWA, tho I like to read about arguments here, to get a better understanding of these things and so of CWA.
I myself as a user can just try to add horse power in the direction of OSX devellopment, and that's what I'm doing in this thread.
This doesn't mean I expect CWA to do an anouncement tomorrow just because I'm asking for it.
I'm just pressing
And I'll see what happens, the more we stay pressing together, the more CWA will understand it's time.
A meeting here, a discussion there, at CWA's, and suddenly Frank shows up here
Take it easy, but keep (helping) pressing
cheers:-)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-01-02 23:15 ]</font>
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Shayne White
- Posts: 1454
- Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: California
- Contact:
Hey, I'm just glad CreamWare didn't go belly-up back in 2004!! At least we can continue to buy their cards and put them in PCs. They're still alive and I have access to my keys!!! I also needed a card replacement last year, and I'm glad they were around to help me! Thank you CreamWare for your help! I love your cards, and I make music with them!! 
Melodious Synth Radio
http://www.melodious-synth.com
Melodious synth music by Binary Sea
http://www.binary-sea.com
http://www.melodious-synth.com
Melodious synth music by Binary Sea
http://www.binary-sea.com
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samplaire
- Posts: 2464
- Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Warsaw to Szczecin, Poland
- Contact:
Agree, not agree - this was not the case. But Grok's waords don't build any good reaction, don't stimulate to workOn 2005-01-02 17:53, melenko wrote:
I didn't feel Grok was complaigning!
What a strange answer to his doubt !!!!!!
I totally agree with your point of view, Grok
Belive me, they do their best in their situation so saying that doesn't change anything.but the wortihest is (for me...), CW seems
to be under-managed!
Sir A while ago, on our private mailing list, I suggested to completely split Scope. Have a full, open sourced development model for the drivers, and user-visible stuff (governed by CW, of course), and CW provides Scope OS closed-source for several platforms (eg Win98, Win2k, OS9, OSX, Linux/ x86, Linux/ amd64), with a clearly documented API. That way, the CW devs could concentrate on the OS and plugins.
That would help protecting CW's critical IP, while adding lots of additional ressources to the Scope platform in itself, to fix small bugs and improve performance of the open parts, as well as develop additional features like I/O interfaces (stuff like JACK, ALSA, DSSI and Ladspa plugins on Linux - don't know about the other platforms, maybe AU for OSX and such things).
Maybe they'll get back to that idea now, I think it would be the best way for all of us...
That would help protecting CW's critical IP, while adding lots of additional ressources to the Scope platform in itself, to fix small bugs and improve performance of the open parts, as well as develop additional features like I/O interfaces (stuff like JACK, ALSA, DSSI and Ladspa plugins on Linux - don't know about the other platforms, maybe AU for OSX and such things).
Maybe they'll get back to that idea now, I think it would be the best way for all of us...
Hi Sir Samplaire Copernicus,On 2005-01-03 07:45, samplaire wrote:
(...)
Belive me, they do their best in their situation so saying that doesn't change anything.but the wortihest is (for me...), CW seems
to be under-managed!
As you ask us to believe you, it should mean that you have some sources of informations that we don't have. Could you explain yourself further, for us to get some reasons for a hope in some positives evolutions?
Anyway, I noticed that you too agree for a Linux port of SFP.
As Creamware being able to take proper decisions, I explained how the Noah story has put an awful doubt in the mind of many CW's consumers. It's not me, Grok, that have created the facts and their negative consequences, be them on the Creamware status or in the consumers minds. Creamware has wanted to conquer new markets with the Noah (as Mr Frank Hund wrote here some time ago), and in the same time has forsaken its user base (SFP, TripleDAT), with the final result being the crash of the first Creamware company, the dismissal of its employees, and an unattractive Noah. These are awfully serious reasons to doubt.
And no communication on a Linux/OSX port doesn't arrange this, you'll agree on this too. Especially after the big hope that has arrived last spring with Wsippel and friends. Right now, there is no communication and thus no hope. And it is more than communication that it is needed to restore trust and hope: it is acts and facts.
Regards,
Grok
Hi,
1st, Noah is an awful piece of hardware and runs with OSX and Windows. I don't understand the bashing of it. Has anyone, who bashes a) used it and b) realized that there are only few units left (speaks for some success, doesn't it ?) and c) knows the background of the insolvency ? I'd say no.
2nd, the majority of people still don't use Linux or even Mac. Pro audio guys do use both Mac and Win in the meantime.
3rd in my case I use scope on a separate win98 box as the heart of the studio. Connected to it are several other pcs/macs. If you want to use Linux, put a box with a cheap adat card into your studio/machine room/whatever and connect it to the old pc. Scope is not just a soundcard, in fact I don't use it as soundcard in the classic sense, but as mixer/fx rack/synth/routing environment between my other comps. If you use scope just as soundcard, sell it.
4th creamware never promised a scope OSX version
5th you should never rely on promises of any company, but instead rely your decision on what is there now.
I agree completely with stardust, that there is no point in ongoing moaning here. I agree as well, that an OSX version should be released asap.
just some cents from me
best
Wolfgang
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wolf on 2005-01-03 14:07 ]</font>
1st, Noah is an awful piece of hardware and runs with OSX and Windows. I don't understand the bashing of it. Has anyone, who bashes a) used it and b) realized that there are only few units left (speaks for some success, doesn't it ?) and c) knows the background of the insolvency ? I'd say no.
2nd, the majority of people still don't use Linux or even Mac. Pro audio guys do use both Mac and Win in the meantime.
3rd in my case I use scope on a separate win98 box as the heart of the studio. Connected to it are several other pcs/macs. If you want to use Linux, put a box with a cheap adat card into your studio/machine room/whatever and connect it to the old pc. Scope is not just a soundcard, in fact I don't use it as soundcard in the classic sense, but as mixer/fx rack/synth/routing environment between my other comps. If you use scope just as soundcard, sell it.
4th creamware never promised a scope OSX version
5th you should never rely on promises of any company, but instead rely your decision on what is there now.
I agree completely with stardust, that there is no point in ongoing moaning here. I agree as well, that an OSX version should be released asap.
just some cents from me
best
Wolfgang
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wolf on 2005-01-03 14:07 ]</font>
Exactly Stardust
I don't know the exact reason, why this happens. Maybe people want to warn others, that they should not use CWA products (I disagree on this), or they don't really get (or they forget) the plot in this forum: userinteraction and self-help. CWA is not here - period (not all the time anyway). If people want something from CWA, they should contact CWA. I (and in this case the rest of us) can't give them what they want anyway. Seen from a strategy point of view, there is not much sense in spreading doubt about the platform (which potetially leads to less income for CWA ... and therefor cutdowns), and then expect that action to speed up development. And ... stress never was a good long term acid for creativity and clear thinking. As Samplaire, I do not doubt that CWA does their best to do what they believe is best, and after all ... they do have a lot more behind the scenes knowledge than us, don't they?
I don't know the exact reason, why this happens. Maybe people want to warn others, that they should not use CWA products (I disagree on this), or they don't really get (or they forget) the plot in this forum: userinteraction and self-help. CWA is not here - period (not all the time anyway). If people want something from CWA, they should contact CWA. I (and in this case the rest of us) can't give them what they want anyway. Seen from a strategy point of view, there is not much sense in spreading doubt about the platform (which potetially leads to less income for CWA ... and therefor cutdowns), and then expect that action to speed up development. And ... stress never was a good long term acid for creativity and clear thinking. As Samplaire, I do not doubt that CWA does their best to do what they believe is best, and after all ... they do have a lot more behind the scenes knowledge than us, don't they?
Hi Wolfgang, your words goes in oposit directions, I guess it is just a misspelled or misused wordOn 2005-01-03 14:04, wolf wrote:
Hi,
1st, Noah is an awful piece of hardware and runs with OSX and Windows. I don't understand the bashing of it. ...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wolf on 2005-01-03 14:07 ]</font>
Short answer: 44,1 kHz only, USB1 (!!!!), not too many DSPsOn 2005-01-03 14:04, wolf wrote:
Hi,
1st, Noah is an awful piece of hardware and runs with OSX and Windows. I don't understand the bashing of it. (...)
Some here (included me) have heard that the CW synths (and the VSTis too) sound better at 48 kHz and 96 kHz. So for them, why buy a Noah? And how digitally insert the Noah in a 48 kHz or a 96 kHz environment? So the Noah seems to be for those who work at 44,1kHz only...
Not me, because of the reasons above(...)Has anyone, who bashes a) used it and (...)
I don't know if it speaks for some success...b) realized that there are only few units left (speaks for some success, doesn't it ?)(...)
If you know more, you can share your knowing if it pleases to you.(...)and c) knows the background of the insolvency ? I'd say no.(...)
If not, people will think and elaborate with the facts they know, even if they are incomplete. That's where a good communication is useful.
You wrote it: they still don't use. What about tomorrow?...(...)2nd, the majority of people still don't use Linux or even Mac. Pro audio guys do use both Mac and Win in the meantime.(...)
Thanks for your friendly suggestion, but I could have a different desire and vision(...)3rd in my case I use scope on a separate win98 box as the heart of the studio. Connected to it are several other pcs/macs. If you want to use Linux, put a box with a cheap adat card into your studio/machine room/whatever and connect it to the old pc. (...)
Thanks for your explanation of what is Scope. Please give credit to other PlanetZ members that they also know what Scope is.(...)Scope is not just a soundcard, in fact I don't use it as soundcard in the classic sense, but as mixer/fx rack/synth/routing environment between my other comps. If you use scope just as soundcard, sell it.(...)
...(...)4th creamware never promised a scope OSX version(...)
Right... But there is this "hope" notion... Seems that some TripleDAT users are still waiting(...)5th you should never rely on promises of any company, but instead rely your decision on what is there now.(...)
PlanetZ is somewhat de facto the heart of the CW community... Mr Hund has come here several times to write his point of view... There is no forum at the Creamware site...(...)I agree completely with stardust, that there is no point in ongoing moaning here.(...)
(...)I agree as well, that an OSX version should be released asap.
just some cents from me
best
Wolfgang
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wolf on 2005-01-03 14:07 ]</font>
And don't forget to make an update for your Step Sequencer to be able to run in 3/4 and 6/8!
You promised me in an email that you have an idea on this, but as you say, I should not rely on promises made by a company, be it yourself. Thanks.Regards,
Grok
There's no need to spread the doubt. It is there. Should we be blind for the reason that we are CW consumers? Is this some kind of captive user syndrom? I participate to the CW enterprise by buying their products regularly since the beginning, and by saying regularly to others potential users how much these synths and FXes sound good and sound better than the vast majority of what is findable in the market. But, sorry to be spontaneous as much as to say what annoy me and what I would like this platform to be. I don't participate in a sect. And I have nothing to sell, so I don't need to please to everyone.On 2005-01-03 14:22, Immanuel wrote:
Exactly Stardust
(...)
Seen from a strategy point of view, there is not much sense in spreading doubt about the platform (which potentially leads to less income for CWA ... and therefore cutdowns), and then expect that action to speed up development.(...)
Who stresses?...(...)And ... stress never was a good long term acid for creativity and clear thinking. As Samplaire, I do not doubt that CWA does their best to do what they believe is best, and after all ... they do have a lot more behind the scenes knowledge than us, don't they?
As for your last affirmation, I'm not so sure about that... I have no such God.
Cheers, from a fellow Samplitude/SFP user,
Grok
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-01-03 15:40 ]</font>
Open source is a beautiful thing. Creamware should take a chance. Is the linux port now vaporware? If more people use the SFP, they can sell more cards. This is obvious to me. Am I missing something? I don't agree with a lot of things Creamware does. I thought the Noah was a stupid idea before they launched it.