OSX and Linux status update

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:14 pm

Another small status-update:

Frank Hund emailed me recently (like, some days ago), telling me that they came to the conclusion that, regardless of the obvious NDA, they don't really want to hand out the complete Scope sourcecode. While I think that's somewhat understandable, it still makes me a little sad. After all, it's not only CW that might loose some credibility if we're not able to show anything, soon... I do understand that CW has a hard time and might be afraid to enter new territory, but I'm sure the ports could really help CW to get into new markets, and aquire new customers - something CW desperately needs right now, and an opportunity not to miss.

However, Frank also assured me that they are still interested in the Linux and OSX port, and that they are in a dialogue with some company that could do the 'dirty work', or that they might hire some Linux/ OSX devs to do the sensitive parts of the work (I think that would be Scope OS by itself, and maybe the copy-protection stuff - if that's not part of Scope OS, anyway).

While such a splitted development model might work out for OSX, I'm becoming somewhat sceptical about the Linux port (given that some of the Linux devs might quit the project because of the delay, and/ or the 'new' development model). And, if the Linux port - including Linux/ amd64 - gets canceled, I'm out... I really hope that doesn't happen, and I'm sure the same goes for CW, but I thought it was only fair to let you know.

By the way, please don't send me any more emails/ PM's about participating in a beta test 'till I tell you that we're actually working on something to test - I _will_ tell you, promised!

Ciao,
Willie

PS: My (now defunct) company is currently working on a very nice open-source project - Hydrogen, a drum composer/ step-sequencer, where one of my former colleagues and I work on workflow and interface improvements. If Scope for Linux/ OSX gets a reality, it might become the "small, easy to use sequencer" so many people requested...

We'll officialy anounce OSX support soon (it's Linux-only right now), maybe some of you are interested (sorry, Windows support is out of the question right now, as it's next to impossible to port Hydrogen to a non-Unix platform):

http://hydrogen.sf.net

[ This Message was edited by: wsippel on 2004-12-29 22:29 ]

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:57 pm

Well, this is rather disappointing. I don't use OS X or Linux myself, but my brother wants me to tell you that as soon as CreamWare gets a G5/3.3v compatible card with 10.3 Panther-ready software available, they've got a sale. I hope CreamWare has new hardware in the works!

Thanks for keeping us informed, and I hope things resolve themselves soon.

Happy New Year,

Shayne

gustav · Post by **gustav** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:57 am

I'm disappointed as you are
Linux is the futur for me - and I will work on Linux next year with or withgout creamware ...

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:16 am

I'm still patient (OSX) but the situation shows CW's words are like a young virgin's "I'd like to but I'm afraid". And as man's life shows such behaviour doesn't lead to anything good. I'd rather hear something like yes or no from Frank's mouth. Shame!

[...]"Frank also assured me that they are still interested in the Linux and OSX port"[...]

Sorry Frank, we don't live in a political world here and this sounds like it was.

Post by **garyb** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:30 am

mmmmm,
disappointing for sure. i hope things find a way to move forward.

Post by **hubird** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:45 am

This will at least cause a delay in OSX support, if not worse.
Must be very frustrating for you and your friends to find the door closed at this point.

Wasn't this discussed between you and CWA before you started the project?
It would be a shame if your work so far would be lost.
I can understand that some of you might leave the house now, tho I don't hope it will happen.

This is a bad start of the next year!
Frank (Hund), if you might read this (...who am I), I think you should do something to keep the Sippel community on board, Creamware ows them.

I hope you (Frank) can tell us soon some more about the state of Linux/OSX devellopment for Scope, I think we all need some confidence in what's going on, need to know how important it is in the company's policy.

A big thanks to Willie and friends for what they have done so far, it really would be a shame if it would lead to nothing now!

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-12-30 09:47 ]

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:49 am

On 2004-12-29 22:14, wsippel wrote:
Another small status-update:

(...)
However, Frank also assured me that they are still interested in the Linux and OSX port, and that they are in a dialogue with some company that could do the 'dirty work', or that they might hire some Linux/ OSX devs to do the sensitive parts of the work (I think that would be Scope OS by itself, and maybe the copy-protection stuff - if that's not part of Scope OS, anyway).
(...)

Thanks WSippel for these news...

I hope this Linux/Mac OSX SFP port will be done very quickly, as Linux audio is maturing at a fast pace and will quickly become the major pro audio solution, and as Creamware has lost some credibility with Mac users and that should not worsen...

I can't understand why this port isn't already done.

Regards,
Grok

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2004-12-30 09:52 ]

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:55 am

I truely hope nobody leaves CW now, because of my announcement. It would be the wrong thing to do - if CW looses any more customers now, they might go out of business, and CW cards would become a rather expensive paperweight, as nobody could update or port the drivers anymore (including not only our ports, but also WinXP x64 and/ or Longhorn).

And don't get me wrong, I'm not angry or something, just a little sad that things are progressing this slow. I'm sure, if we had the source back then, when the project was supposed to kick into gear (late spring/ early summer), we would at least have a beta for Linux right now.

Our effort would allow CW to enter new markets without the need to invest any money, and therefore, with minimum risk. Protecting IP is all fine and dandy, but I'm really sure CW needs those new markets to survive, as there are alternatives for Windows (TC, UAD-1), but not for Linux - that also includes all those pro-audio embedded systems running Linux that spread like wildfire these days. So, the question is: if only a few people have the source, how big is the risk that something might leak? And, on the other hand, how big is the risk if the opportunity is missed?

To sum it up: keep the faith - I try to! I'm sure they _do_ know that they need to get things moving quickly.

Ciao,
Willie

[ This Message was edited by: wsippel on 2004-12-30 12:11 ]

Kamurah · Post by **Kamurah** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:17 pm

This is utter BullSh#t.

An OSX solution was promised (by Creamware) to be available APRIL 2003!!!!

Whatever....they got my money already...so I will take it just like everyone else.

I just HATE having ANOTHER noisy computer in my studio...and quite frankly, I hate using PC's (I had toyed with switching totally to PC, but Cubase sucks and I can't stand the vulnerability of XP)

Oh well...too bad CW can't get their sh#t together. A Scope+Logic combo would have been killer.

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:00 pm

Ever tried Sonar?

Kamurah · Post by **Kamurah** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:41 pm

No never tried it.... Is it good?

Doesn't it use a wrapper for VST though?

Not a biggie if it is stable and efficient...

Post by **hubird** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:24 pm

I guess Creamware is the last company in the world that has a mac compatible soundcard with no OSX support.
We reach the point that it gets rediculous for Creamware Audio to announce OSX support after all...

I've not seen many signs that say it's on Creamware's priority list.
Willie and friends seem to be surprised about the devellopments.
Now that they are getting close to a Linux beta version Creamware realizes the consequences.
I even wouldn't call that fair.

I don't want to discuss the rationality of that source code decision, it's really up to CreamwareAudio, but I guess there's a lot of work done by some Linux programmers, and everybody was aware of that.
I'd say some coordination would have been proper then .

I don't know what's happening behind Creamware's doors of course, but with the information we have this is the impression I get.
I really hope Creamware will soon find the company or programmers it needs for doing OSX, and also find a way to work together with the Linux boys, to take profit from their good job.

Moreover, there's also the hardware side of the story, the card's voltage problem,
so it's rather heavy at the moment, also from Creamware's view point, I understand that.
But some day I have to step over to a G5, preferrably somewhere in 2005!
Besides, what a pleasure it will be to use my Phatmatic Pro in the greatly updated OSX version, or to buy the Lounge Wizzard...

I think the new products recently were a smart move, as they are new mony makers and the knowledge and all was already there, but now every delay concerning OSZ/Linux is wrong, for us and for CreamwareAudio itself, Willie said that already

It's guessing at the moment how important OSX/Linux is for CreamwareAudio.
Some official announcement, some vague timeline now would be very appreciated, to keep the flame and our trust burning.
Is there anything you could tell us, mr. Frank Hund?
It would be much appreciated

cheers

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-12-30 20:27 ]

melenko · Post by **melenko** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:17 am

Thanks Wsippel for your sincerity and the fact you bring us news.
Finally, macusers are feeling the same way.

Best wishes anyway

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:37 am

Hi,

I've been working with Demudi and a little Dynebolic, and these OS's have come quite an end since I've tried them last year. I'm much looking forward to play with SFP on that. JACK audio drivers for example can host any IO you create in any program and as such allows mad routing between all audio programs, common transport controls etc. Also, many programs support the OSC protocol, for controlling parameters over the network.

Spending lots of time on Beast and Hydrogen nowadays. The programs each on their own may not be as detailed as Cubase, Logic or Reaktor, but to mash them up in the JACK routing and use the best of each program makes up for that.

Just bought Edirol's UA-25 for the laptop, will try to set it up over the weekend, then I can sync and transfer decently to the Pulsar machine.

Let's hope CW soon finds a reasonable agreement and the technical possibilities to handle all the copyright stuff for the Linux port! Wsippel, thanks for the update

Waiting for more,

at0m.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:14 pm

On 2004-12-30 10:55, wsippel wrote:
...So, the question is: if only a few people have the source, how big is the risk that something might leak? And, on the other hand, how big is the risk if the opportunity is missed? ...

first part: BIG

the facts of the port are commonly known (meanwhile) - someone's looking for experienced coders - how difficult would it be to get on board ?
The point is not to copy line by line - the conceptual part (of the low level and routing interface) is much more interesting...
Such kind of (inspirational) 'theft' is almost impossible to proove in a lawsuit.

second part: low

there would be a significant switch from Windows to Linux in the existing userbase, no doubt - but new customers ?
The majority buys by numbers and image - not a good perspective for CWA, sadly...

Nevertheless I consider both ports (Linux and OSX) important, you HAVE to support the Mac to be someone in pro audio, since the iPod's success even more.
THAT could gain quite some new customers - if marketing would be able to associate a Scope package with Apple's toy

cheers, Tom

wsippel · Post by **wsippel** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:41 pm

Hi Tom.

Well, I don't deny the risk, but I really don't consider it this big. After all, the routing is not really a huge secret and unique to CW in any way. See Jack Transport for an Open Source audio and control routing implementation for example, it does much more than CW's (eg network transparency, split/ join hardware I/Os, and lot's of stuff noone tried yet), and it should be able to run the server on AD Sharc DSP's, too...

And, there are more potential _new_ customers to be gained from a Linux port than existing Scope users switching. There are two main reasons for that: first of all, Scope is ideal for embedded appliances that run Linux (like Liontracks or Atlantis hardware). Second, and that's the real chance: no Linux musician needs the Scope routing capabilities - we can do the same with any sh*tty onboard soundchip for ages. But we have only very few good softsynths and effects, and like Windows/ OSX musicians shell out money for VST, DX or AU plugins, for Linux users, Scope would be the only option (at least 'till stuff like DSSI-VST and FST matures, which allow to use Windows VST plugins on Linux)...

[ This Message was edited by: wsippel on 2005-01-01 16:58 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:36 pm

no need to worry stardust - the iPod IS a mass market product...

it makes a mass of customers feel better (as they possibly are ?

)
anyway - reduced to it's function the iPod is as superfluous as can be, noone 'needs' an iPod, yet it's a 'must have' and people shell an aweful lot of money to be 'onboard'.

I kinda like such business plans (sometimes hard to understand, though) and my 'association' wasn't exactly in the context of a bundle or something like that. It was about associating with the idea or the 'spirit' behind the product.
Someone who buys an iPod will not check for prices in the first place and not even for quality (afaik the iPod has a horrible converter...)

cheers, Tom

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:10 pm

On 2005-01-01 16:41, wsippel wrote:
Well, I don't deny the risk, but I really don't consider it this big...

right, it isn't this big, but it's crucial

it's CWA's intellectual property and only (or most important) asset (afaik).
How do you feel about a 10k Euro bet at a 10% guaranteed chance (horse races for example)...

I have only quickly browsed the features of the Jack server, but I don't think it's comparable with the DSP routing.

As a CPU based program it makes a lot of sense, though.
If I get this right it guarantees sample accuracy after the 'weakest' link of the chain if the server process is undisturbed and all apps link to the server. As such your mileage will vary.

The DSPs on the other hand are programmed with constant performance in their own environment (slightly simplyfied).
Imho Yamaha takes a similiar approach with their MLAN chips and I assume they do have more than just marketing reasons for doing so.

Since I have no Linux/Jack hands on experience I cannot comment on the precision of it's performance but considering the complexity of the setup I doubt it can deliver comparable results to SFP.
Not because it is badly implemented but for the simple fact of the conditions under which it has to do it's job.

I agree to your argument about softsynths or fx to a degree, but then: plug in a 100 Euro Adat board into the Linux machine and a cheapo box with SFP does the job. Imho the setup would be even simpler than an all-in-one system.

cheers, Tom

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:53 am

I want to install Linux in my computer, and currently I can't, only because of my Creamware cards that have no drivers for Linux!!!...

I already have XP on this machine, and I want to install Linux on this same machine, too. Not really because of the expenses point of view, but because Linux is efficient and rock solid like XP will never be... Because of JACK... Because I want freedom of choice with the gears I buy... Because of plenty of reasons...

Some other users wants the same, and their number is growing.

I'm tired to be considered as a captive user by Creamware. I've supported this company along the years, they got plenty of my good money, only to fall in bankrupcy because of brilliant ideas like the Noah. Now it seems they have made another brilliant (non)move, and that they respect their users like they've always done. Creamware's restoration, when?

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:28 am

Grok, Grok, the complainer