Piano for Scope

We've got lots of great synths, a great organ and even a great guitar.
Will we ever have a grand piano? Like Viscount's Physis maybe?

'Total Piano' ( Classic Stereo Piano ) comes on the Creamware 'The Sample Collection' for STS samplers.

a DSP based one please

and while were wishing, how bout a DSP woodwind/brass for my EWI

You mean physically modelled like pianoteq ? Doubt it. I mean, FM can do great Elec Pianos, but I imagine a heck of a lot of work went into Pianoteq so its probably worth the price and too much work for a DSP programmer to make cheaper. If you dont need all that PianoTeq offers in terms of control (127 velocities per note etc) to justify its price you're probably back looking at just using the STS one or other AKAI/VST freeware one for cheap anyways.

I just use stock Halion or Kontakt ones which do the job in the absence of enough pro use to justify PianoTeq

Hi yayajohn.

a great organ

Which one do you mean?

You mean physically modelled like pianoteq ? Doubt it. I mean, FM can do great Elec Pianos, but I imagine a heck of a lot of work went into Pianoteq so its probably worth the price and too much work for a DSP programmer to make cheaper. If you dont need all that PianoTeq offers in terms of control (127 velocities per note etc) to justify its price you're probably back looking at just using the STS one or other AKAI/VST freeware one for cheap anyways.

I just use stock Halion or Kontakt ones which do the job in the absence of enough pro use to justify PianoTeq

yes Physically Modeled like Viscount Physis. Why do I have to settle for a VST sampler when I've got Scope DSP's? I'm not really looking for cheap, I mean how much is SixString or Solaris or Flexor 3? Many have invested thousands of dollars in this platform and I'd rather not be forced to upgrade my computer and ram and operating system to account for the extra large sample memory requirement for a VST instrument. I'd rather spend my money on a device associated with the development of Scope and Sonic Core. The synths here are really good and top quality and well, if you're a keyboard player like me, then a really good piano sure would help with the ultimate goal of VST free.

Dan

Hi yayajohn.

a great organ

Which one do you mean?

B2003? I think it's great.......never had the pleasure of playing the real thing though so take it for whatever it's worth, sure is better sounding than the SK20 I grew up with though

yes Physically Modeled like Viscount Physis. Why do I have to settle for a VST sampler when I've got Scope DSP's? I'm not really looking for cheap, I mean how much is SixString or Solaris or Flexor 3? Many have invested thousands of dollars in this platform and I'd rather not be forced to upgrade my computer and ram and operating system to account for the extra large sample memory requirement for a VST instrument. I'd rather spend my money on a device associated with the development of Scope and Sonic Core. The synths here are really good and top quality and well, if you're a keyboard player like me, then a really good piano sure would help with the ultimate goal of VST free.

Dan

I agree it would be great if there was one, but if it happens and its cheaper than PianoTeq (but just as good), I'd be extremely (but pleasantly) surprised...and one of the first in line to buy it.

does that include the price to upgrade your computer and operating system?

cheers


Dan

Why would I need to ?

well I guess you've already upgraded to win7 64 bit with a hefty amt of ram? Not sure what the PianoTeq or Ivory requirements are but I'm using my CP300 piano on an xp machine and it's fine for now.
IMHO a physically modeled DSP based piano equivalent to the Physis would fit very nicely into the excellent palette of musical tools we already have.
(I understand though that guitar players probably could give 2 shits lol)

extra ram won't help a phymod piano necessarily. it's mainly for sampled stuff(of course, you do need enough, whatever that is...).

most people do NOT benefit ftom 64bit, even if many or even most of those here at PZ do, or think that they do. it really depends on what you are fdoing and what apps you are using. for traditional audio and recording, massive amounts of memory aren't needed or usable. 64bit is just a pain to be avoided. those using lots of huge sample libraries and who can't commit a part to audio, or those using those sampled instruments live and wishing to have them all loaded, all the time will be the ones who need the fastest machine running 64bit with tons of ram.

most people do not need a new computer, regardless of what the industry might prefer...of course, this doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't get a new computer....

well I guess you've already upgraded to win7 64 bit with a hefty amt of ram? Not sure what the PianoTeq or Ivory requirements are but I'm using my CP300 piano on an xp machine and it's fine for now.

Nope. Still on WinXP32 w/ 4gigs. But when I spoke about being first in line to buy, I was referring to a DSP PhysMod, which would not need extra ram.

Im not contemplating buying PianoTeq, but even if I was, thier website says 256K ram needed - LOL - maybe thats BS if you're talking usable polyphony. But at the moment, I can run Jaco Pastorius Bass + LA Session Strings (Lite) plus NeoKey suitcase Rhodes as Kontakt VST's - the prospect of running PianoTeq would not be the breaking point forcing 64bit for me, coz the VST acoustic pianos I mentioned suffice.

But when that breaking point comes, I will be expecting several benefits the least of which will be a piano with 127 velocities per note.

btw: does anyone has the 'The Sample Collection' for STS samplers. with the piano included?

i can create a modular patch of a piano with lots of sample osc for multi sample so not much transpose will be done

they will be all in mono with a poly out to the eq and filter section keeping the dsp count down and 1 vca and ar envelope with chorus and phaser and delay and reverb effects

if interested in beta testing it for me let me know

yes Physically Modeled like Viscount Physis.

It woud be brilliant if we could get physically modelled acoustic-/e-pianos for SCOPE,- but I doubt we will or should.

Physis Piano runs on a s**tload of Texas Instruments processors combined w/ ARM Cortex processors:
6 TI OMAP DSP + ARM Cortex A-15 MP Core processors up to 2 GHz each and there are multi core POWER VR SGX544-MPX graphic accellerators (TI 2D Bit Blt graphics accellerator).
I´m not sure the developement is based on the OMAP 4 or 5 generation and what will be in when ready,- maybe the latest generation OMAP 5.
This developement isn´t new and Viscount has experiences already because they modelled their organs first.
In addition, it´s OS seems to be Windows embedded or Linux.

I´m not sure if SHARC DSPs will offer that power needed to run a comparable physical model engine at all and if, it might cost all the DSP power of a XITE-1 just only to run 1 model.

The developement would cost Sonic Core or any other developer lots of time and money and there is no guarantee it will be on par w/ competitors or better.

I think, when the Physis Piano will be released one day and is really good,- it´s much easier to buy one and use it as a masterkeyboard for XITE/SCOPE.

With DPs, you don´t want only the sound but also the action and in most DPs, the action is perfectly adjusted for best connectivity to the sound engine.

If you want acoustic piano for SCOPE,- use a William Coakley Piano in AKAI format for STS Sampler and if you want usable Clavinet, Wurly and Rhodes,- look for Wizoo "Magnetica" sample CD in AKAI format and use w/ STS-4000.
There´s also a sampled Hammond B3 included,- but that´s 2nd row to me.

Why do I have to settle for a VST sampler when I've got Scope DSP's?

Probably you won´t have to if waiting for improvements of SCOPE 6.
I don´t know what they will have in the pipeline for STS samplers,- maybe more sample format import or usage of more RAM.
The STS sampler sounds good, but has some issues and it doesn´t support enough library formats,- but all could be fixed/improved by software update.

I'm not really looking for cheap, I mean how much is SixString or Solaris or Flexor 3? Many have invested thousands of dollars in this platform and I'd rather not be forced to upgrade my computer and ram and operating system to account for the extra large sample memory requirement for a VST instrument. I'd rather spend my money on a device associated with the development of Scope and Sonic Core. The synths here are really good and top quality and well, if you're a keyboard player like me, then a really good piano sure would help with the ultimate goal of VST free.

Dan

Well, possibly you´ll have to upgrade your computer for SCOPE 6 already,- who knows ?
With ParseQ, VST integration is promised to be much easier than using XTC/VSTIM, the channel strips being calculated on XITE DSPs then.

Six String, Solaris and Flexor is all synths,- not comparable to acoustic piano models.
I´d say, modelling a Clavinet and electric pianos is also easier than modelling an acoustic piano.
Clavinet D6 might be the easiest and most comparable to the SixString.

In VST world, we alread have a modelled Clavinet D6,- GSi ZD6 as well as a Rhodes GSi MrRay mk II.
These engines will be improved too next future and since Guido´s Crumar Mojo organ (VB3-2 model) and Hamichord (same engine) work very very good.

I see better VSTi usage w/ upcoming ParseQ and SCOPE and there´s no need to run Gigabyte sample libraries to make quality music.

Bud

ah I'm beginning to see the picture now. A lot more technical challenges involved other than just writing an algo for the sharc dsp's.
Well then you are right, a whole new master keyboard will be the way to go when my current one dies. I like my CP300 cause it's got built in speakers and a pitch and mod wheel and a halfway decent piano sound, didn't break the bank either. The samples are dated though and there are a lot better sounds avail on the newer pianos these days.
Perhaps a Solaris/Physis combo in the future.........one can dream right?

with experimenting with modular i can get a 9 sample multisample instrument

playing with 10 notes poly on my 36 dsp system at 20% of dsp power

and on my 27 dsp system i can get 10 notes poly with 26% of dsp power

pianos are very easy as they dont use multi filters or envelopes

or lots of modulation inputs

i reackon i can get a 18 sample multisample piano instrument with 10 note poly with about 40-60 % of dsp resources

ill be sending it to jimmyv and dante for beta testing before i release to forum

Perhaps a Solaris/Physis combo in the future.........one can dream right?

Well, being a keyboardplayer, that´s my near future target ...

Physis Piano (if it´s really good and reliable), midied into my Kurzweil PC361 (as a ROMpler and main MIDI controller engine), J.B. Solaris (because I want the synth haptics and displays) and a small rack w/ XITE-1, Ferrofish A16mkII and Alyseum MIDI over LAN interface.
A laptop running SCOPE 6 (w/ ParseQ when available) and Reason 6.5, very few VSTis like OPX ProII, Uhe Zebra 2.5 and NI Kontakt.
Another small rack w/ power stabilizer/conditioner & a UPS.

Not only a dream for me,- just waiting for SCOPE 6, ParseQ, availability of Physis Piano and the announcement Solaris gets MIDI multi mode update.
Let´s see what comes @ winter NAMM.

At home, I connect the small XITE-1 rack to my main DAW machine and I´m done.

Bud

with experimenting with modular i can get a 9 sample multisample instrument

playing with 10 notes poly on my 36 dsp system at 20% of dsp power

and on my 27 dsp system i can get 10 notes poly with 26% of dsp power

pianos are very easy as they dont use multi filters or envelopes

or lots of modulation inputs

i reackon i can get a 18 sample multisample piano instrument with 10 note poly with about 40-60 % of dsp resources

ill be sending it to jimmyv and dante for beta testing before i release to forum

I really appreciate your input on this,- but 10 voice poly is by far not enough for real piano playing, considering normal usage of sustain/legato and sostenuto pedals,- and what´s up w/ release samples, string resonance samples if the damper is released and half pedalling ?

Bud

i was just saying 10 note poly at 20% on a 36 dsp system so you proberly could do many more than 10 notes

and adding filters and other things thats for you todo as i have not added any loops

i was just saying it can be done

and i have done 1 mod dev of it

i was just saying 10 note poly at 20% on a 36 dsp system so you proberly could do many more than 10 notes

and adding filters and other things thats for you todo as i have not added any loops

i was just saying it can be done

and i have done 1 mod dev of it

Ah, o.k. I see.
I´m curious how it will sound anyway and because there are a lot of purposes not needing lots of voices.
Let´s say, playing complex classical or jazz stuff needs all the features we already know from VST Piano emulations as well as some hardware instruments.

Bud

well if you want to beta test it

and let me know your thoughts we vcan come up with something

but need your private email to send you the folder with the dev and the samples

Yeah Bud would make a good reviewer for Acoustic Piano dev as he is a real keyboard player (unlike me who pretends by programming MIDI sequence) but sure I will beta test as well.

I think making something physically modelled on DSP as comprehensive as PianoTeq would take a lot of DSP programming, whereas the DSP work fixing a few minor bugs on STS would be much less work, so making possible the loading of a decent AKAI piano onto it.

Then again we'll see what JHulk's PianoDev can do !

Maybe better than STS ?

well if you want to beta test it

and let me know your thoughts we vcan come up with something

but need your private email to send you the folder with the dev and the samples

Hi !

Thx for the offer !
I´d like to, but I´m very busy atm.

I´ll shoot you a PM when it makes sense and earliest upcoming week.

best

Bud

Yeah Bud would make a good reviewer for Acoustic Piano dev as he is a real keyboard player (unlike me who pretends by programming MIDI sequence) but sure I will beta test as well.

Thx Dante !

You probably imagine what´s up here, so I have very limited time only.
Good you and Jimmy do too !
I´ll chime in as soon as I can.

... whereas the DSP work fixing a few minor bugs on STS would be much less work, so making possible the loading of a decent AKAI piano onto it.

Maybe not only AKAI in future,- I hope ...
There was good stuff for AKAI S-1000 / 3000 in the past, but all limited sample sets depending on hardware AKAI´s 32MB RAM size limit.
So, we probably will rarely find long multi-sample sets in AKAI format.

Then again we'll see what JHulk's PianoDev can do !

Maybe better than STS ?

It´s worth a try anyway being an alternative concept and who knows what can be done to improve it.
I´m not deep into Modular up to now by lack of time, so that might be the occasion.

Given the fact we´re discussing a wishlist thread here,- the idea to get STS samplers w/ DFD streaming shouldn´t be ignored and if we´d have a sample oscillator in Modular doing the same would improve creating sample based devices for SCOPE in future.

I don´t have a SDK, so no idea what the limits for sample usage in Modular are up to now.

Bud

the limitations as they are is no start or end sample params no loop params

so this limits it very much as most samplers have this velocity to move the sample start forward meaning no attack phase this is good when doing brass type sounds

no setting of loops this is also a pain as

no loop modulation this would give us wavetable synthesis like ni reaktor

no multisample support keymaps means that if using only 1 sample say c5 for the whole keyboard range

becuase the sample is played slower at the c2 c1 range the transients loose there energy rather than the plosive attack like they should

also means to do a multisample instrument you have to use many sample osc which means more resorces as really it should be done with one sample osc

no release phase after sustain loop this is great for real tails of instruments and not synthesized by envelope as a lot are log release and not linear

one option is to have a container sample osc so that rather than loading wave files multi velocity samples keymaps like akai sf2 sfz kmp

where all the info is in the keymap file there would be a velocity input to the sample osc so that it could switch between velocity layers and multisample layers

this is what vsti instruments do with there sample osc been available for 8-10 years now on native

thats what makes kontakt good

but the filters are basic in kontakt unlike the modular ones

so the modular sample os only lets you set low key root key and top key it reads the loop info from the wave or aiff or akai sample file and pitch coarse and fine

the sample osc is the weakest link in the modular as is and is the only thing that needs to change as every thing else is easily doable with the modular modules

what i would like to see in a mdl is stereo switch stereo in to 2-4 sets of outs and 4-2 ins to 1 stereo out

as it is for switching sets that need 2 inputs to both be switched means i have to use 2 switches

which is a pain as i have to write notes explaning if switching one you need to switch the other

so to recap its the use of multisamples that make sample instruments great

and things like piano having a multisample for every key say 88 notes in one osc would be the bomb

and would use a lot less dsp resources

I did some tests with the Sample OSCs in the past and improvised how far I can get.
At least the Sample OSC can understand loop points written in the wav.
For more experimental sounds, someone can use two OSCs together, one has loaded the 'normal' looped wav the second holds a reversed version of the original sample,
Both OSCs are 'linked' with a mix module driven by an LFO or elastic module, this will give you some loop variations.

I can imagine experimenting with the gate signal on the Sample OSCs could end in a delayed trigger gate signal to start several Sample OSCs one after the other.... limitations gives place for improvisation. But yes a overworked sample OSC would be great, modular is years back in that matter

well i have proved that multisampling can be done on scope modular

and with great results

but people with 64bit systems seem to have problems with poly and sample osc

jimmyv just beta tested my e-piano multisample instrument

and on my 36dsp system i can get 20 notes poly no problem on a p4 3.2 single core no ht with 2gb memory xp32 sp3

but he has problems on his xite which is much faster than my 36 dsp system

with 64bit only getting 4 note poly which defeats the object of an e-piano

the rmi is great as 10 notes is enough poly as the sustain on these is not very long compared to a acoustic piano

but one sample osc with a keymap function would be so much better and the modula dev would be tiny

compared to the amount of modules needed to do it now

rmi modular dev.png (432.95 KiB) Viewed 3008 times

this picture is from jimmyv 64bit setup and xcite

i cant wait until scope 6 comes then i can embed in the samples so you dont see the sample osc for instruments like this and only have the controls on show needed for operation

Jhulk's Modular EPs are damn precise, but a Piano as in a grand will not happen due to the sheer amount of samples needed but the RMI and Pianet would be just fine as his details and precision are extreme, sound quality supreme. He does really well developed Modular patches, and I thank you as I have the RMI Howlin' Wolf sound dialed in.\

I would advice YayaJohn to check out the PhysMod PianoTeq 4.1, It takes no RAM that I notice, and can use 48k or 96k according to the host, but limited to 44.1 in standalone.
It also has an outstanding Wurltzer, RHodes and Clavinet, pick your choice and I shall do a demo of how realistic PhysMods have become, and the light resources needed to use them.

Demos at the website are mere MIDI files where the " artist " pretended to perform. A good give away is the lack of imperfect but better sounding grace notes.
Also worth mentioning is VSTi developers are still fucking our ass by sliding by on people who weren't really classically trained, so they believe the poor saps never saw the 3rd Sostenuto pedal, or the 4th Harmonic pedal on more modern designs. I am an asshole about spending money on incomplete instruments, and make no apologies, but with Piano Teq Pro it is as complete as they come.

For a Fellow Scope user I'd be glad to do a demo for you if you think you'd be interested.
I am actually smiling when playing this PhysMod since it's so fine of an instrument.
I think you'll be impressed.

thanks for the compliment jimmy im glad you like it

Well a Scope Grand Piano would be nicer but I can see that ain't gonna happen so I prob will check out the PianoTeq sometime. Prob have to get a new hard drive since I am running out of space and if it's that good a grand piano it's got to be at least a few gigs?
Jhulk, I may hit you up for those files when I get back to my rig in Sep.

Thanks y'all

Dan

btw: does anyone has the 'The Sample Collection' for STS samplers. with the piano included?

Yep. Here is a short improv I did on it loaded into the STS5000. I didnt bother turning off my mastering chain so theres probably a bit more bass and treble than on the dry instrument.

http://soundcloud.com/hitfoundry/sts-total-piano

Its really quite damn good, imagine what it could sound like in the right hands (my chops are a bit heavy handed). Theres no lack of expression and it take up geeze - 13Meg of HDD ? And the program loaded instantly into the STS, and you get that Scope clarity of sound.

Thats 13MB - not 13GB ! No new hard drives required there.

Kontakt and VST's are great for instruments that cant be done convicingly with small footprint. But for those that can STS still whips arse for clarity and live quick loading.

except for those of us on x64.

except for those of us on x64.

Hence this post :

https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31259

If not, theres still the VolksSampler workaround.

but thats the choice you have made using 64bit

32bit works fine why any body uses 64bit i really dont know

unless for games

you are the ginea pigs with 64bit os and will be until it matures say in 10years time

but by then mr bill gates would have brought out 4-5 newer versions of the same shit that wont run the stuff from before

and we will be on 128 bit by then

if it is not broken dont fix it

all the devs were written for 32bit sts5000 thats what 10 years old now thats older than kontakt 2

same for the sample osc in modular its getting on 10 years old but it still works perfectly in 32bit

dont blame the devs its the 64bit os thats the problem for both scope and xite users

jimmyv has been off loading his dev becuase of the 64bit problem

its not a sonicore bug either as creamware wrote the devs

and for all those devs to work in 64bit would need a rewrite of there code to work with 64bit or at least some type of bridge software like there is for 32bit vsti

to work on 64bit machines

but better would be a new sampler dev for 64bit not the sts range but something totaly new with no layer limitations for velocity with support for all formats available

yeah i'm not on 64bit either and don't plan on getting it until i'm forced to. I might have to look at that Scope STS collection again that's a fairly decent sound thanks dante. I just recently loaded a whole stack of Akai disks on my hard drive for use with the STS that's why I don't have any space left Appreciate that bit in ScopeRise on how to do that....again thanks to dante!
Still have my CD3000 in the rack but it takes too long to load and I just don't have any time these days.

Dan

Better would be a new sampler dev for 64bit not the sts range but something totaly new with no layer limitations for velocity with support for all formats available

I would love the ability to use a Scope sampler with limitless RAM, and have VDAT record to RAM for realtime editing while monitoring....
WHo knows, if I get SDK by the 2020 I might learned how to build one....

Maybe by then Modular X will have new parts that make it easier than doing it w/ SDK.

But even if you take all the low level DSP coding work out of developing a sampled instrument theres still a shite load of work to be done to say sample every key of a piano w/ all mic positions, velocities etc.

Wouldn't it be a full time gig for for those Quantum Leap dudes ?

Imagine sampling every Solaris preset at all keys, velocities and ribbon positions