Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Hey guys,

we are young computer scienctists and something popped into our mind:

What do you think of a 96 (4x pulsar adat) to 160 (4x scope adat) ADAT-I/O-Solution with
ONE SINGLE PCI-EXPRESS x1
or
ONE SINGLE EXPRESSCARD (for laptops)?

Should we develop something in this way?

It's a huge mobile recording platform without any big CPU-load as you know from firewire-devices...

Greetings,
Robin

Please provide more info:
Is it inside the scope platform? A 3rd party device?
With/without dsps? Etc etc

First question I would ask is why ADAT when MADI is the next generation ?

Please provide more info:
Is it inside the scope platform? A 3rd party device?
With/without dsps? Etc etc

For sure it is normal Scope-Platform - it will be in an additional external case with a good power supply.
Just the interconnect between your PC/Laptop is the magic - with an PCIe (x1) or ExpressCard-Adapter are FOUR FULL POWERED PCI-DEVICES possible...

First question I would ask is why ADAT when MADI is the next generation ?

Because SCOPE/SP or Pulsar-Boards do not have MADI?

In the next step we can maybe build a Z-Link to MADI-Converter - Z-LINK can handle 8x 96/24, ADAT only 8x 48/24 so - great improvement?


What's on your mind?

I'll test it now with a Luna II, Pulsar 1 and one Pulsar SRB ... Maybe later an additional SCOPE/SP...
If it works - i'll share my experience and can sell it to you too...

greetings

depending on the cost, and if it boosts pci perfomance on my i7 1366 i will definitely considering it!

Sounds great! so it is basically something like this?
http://www.virtuavia.eu/shop/pci-expres ... 29809.html

If it can be done cheaper than that, and work just as good as in normal pci slots then i am sure you have some potential buyers!
(including me, depending on the price)

It would be way cool if the case was a 2-4 unit rack, slim, with the scope cards next to each other(unlike a computer case) instead of on top of each other (like in a computer case)
basically i would like to avoid the big clunky box that you see in the link i posted above, but i would love all the insides:)

Sounds great! so it is basically something like this?
http://www.virtuavia.eu/shop/pci-expres ... 29809.html

If it can be done cheaper than that, and work just as good as in normal pci slots then i am sure you have some potential buyers!
(including me, depending on the price)

It would be way cool if the case was a 2-4 unit rack, slim, with the scope cards next to each other(unlike a computer case) instead of on top of each other (like in a computer case)
basically i would like to avoid the big clunky box that you see in the link i posted above, but i would love all the insides:)

Yes the19thbear,
it will be basically the same, BUT:
- the "dirty little cheap boxes" allow only a power consumption of 200-300mA per PCI-Devices (a Luna II requires 6W - minimum 500mA) - a Scope will be use a lot more!
- the power supply is a really cheap one, without any stabilizing and cleaning... not very good
- it's too short for a SCOPE/SP...

i'll investigate my solution with a swiss vendor of hardware and will give feedback about interferences, heat etc...

very nice.

completely another topic, but i bet you could sell these: A usb/firewire to adat converter. You cant get them anywhere, and it would be so cool to be able to hook up an external 16/8 channel converter to a laptop and record stuff on the go, without any special interface for the labtop.

Really great to see you guys here! i hope everything goes well with your development!

For sure it is normal Scope-Platform - it will be in an additional external case with a good power supply.
Just the interconnect between your PC/Laptop is the magic - with an PCIe (x1) or ExpressCard-Adapter are FOUR FULL POWERED PCI-DEVICES possible...

How would you achieve a PCIe to 4 Scope PCI card adapter as the STDM cables used to link/chain cards are only capable to link 3 cards ?

you can link 4 cards by making your own link cable. several people have had it working here. But maybe we only really need 3 ports, since it is (was) officially supported..

you can link 4 cards by making your own link cable. several people have had it working here. But maybe we only really need 3 ports, since it is (was) officially supported..

Anybody tried with 5 ?

Hey guys,

I'm recently ordered some components to build up a development system and I'm thinking about a beautiful 19inch 2U Rackmount for it, all with nice Neutrik & D-Sub connectors...

Who can confirm that 3 chained cards "should" be the maximum?
Where is the technical limit?
We need to know, because if the system can handle 8 or more cards together, i have to develop S/TDM-Breakout connectors - should be 5*20 pins ==> 100 pins (not so easy to get )
Think about four 19-inch 2U-Rackunits, each powered with four Scope/SP, chained together + 4 PCIe cards to plug them all in.
That are 16 SCOPE/SP with a DSP-capacity of 240 DSP!
Already a system of 4x SCOPE/SP plugged into a Laptop with ExpressCard would be great for live recording...
Buy a SSD and just DO IT.. without heavy processor load... niiiiiice *justThinkingLoad*


What's your current configuration!?

Next thought:
A 19-inch Rackmount holder for Luna Expension box where 2 of them fit in and STRONG Neutrik Firewire-ports to break out...

Come on, let's do the work which Creamware not did to get it solid!


Greetings,
Robin

You need to contact soniccore to ask them why the max i s 3 (or 4) cards. It might have had to do with the pci bus speeds? if it is, then we dont have to worry about it since we are using pcie..

A 2 unit rackmount box would be great!
You have to consider the price though. Magma has made similar boxes, and most people who have to pay anything in that price range, would just buy and XITE instead, because it runs on pcie and has more power.

The strength with your configuration is alot of in/outs. But the price needs to be low as well (not alot higher than the virtuvia boxes i linked to earlier i think)
Maybe you could make pcie->2 pci converter boxes that are cheaper, and then a full 4-whatever is the max that is more expensive.

Nice Dsub and neutrik connectors is always nice, but as i said, if it raises the price, then people will buy an Xite instead of your box.
Im just thinking out loud here

OK, just to elaborate a bit more on that topic.

The official maximum number of "chainable" cards is 3.

19th bear just mentionned that some people have/had a 4 card system by making their own STDM cables.

Just to make things simple (correct me if I am wrong): Scope software just see the PCI boards as one board and chain the on board DSP thanks to STDM cables. I do not know if IO are connected to the scope host software through PCI or STDM would be enough.
But a Scope system the STDM connexion between all boards is necessary to share DSP ressource.

So it should be possible to make more than 3 cards work together thanks to custom STDM cables (as 19th bear told).

But you wouldn't be able to have 4 separate racks connected to a PCIe mainboard working with a unique Scope software as you have to link the differents rack with STDM cables (or you would have to create an external STDM connexion adapter maybe inspired from the Xite-1 STDM but please use a different connector male instead of femelle. And there is also the ground and power supply issue.

To sum-up:
- PCI is used for scope host software dialog, power supply the cards, get access to host RAM for memory hugry devices like reverb, samplers or delays and may also be necessary for IO handling.
- STDM connexion is used for inter-DSP data exchange and is necessary to allow the system to work.

I also wonder is if PCIe to PCI adapter can be used. Does the host software "see" the board through the PCIe to PCI bridge. The only experience I have is what my PCI to PCI Magma rack provide me.

I also wish I could find a solution to give old PCI scope cards to a second life. That's the reason why I build a rack based host for 2 of my boards to achieve a backup system as mentionned in this topic:
https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28203
I used a fanless TranquilPC rack PC to host 2 PCI boards with a compactflash Win 98 SE powered system and got something completely silent, I still use as homemade NOAH unit.

I would also suspect that the max of 3 boards is/was due to the DSP performance limit you reach.
Some people report that they see no significant difference between a 3 Scope Pro (45 DSP) system and a 2 Scope Pro + 1 Scope Project (36 DSP) system. The obvious explanation of that being that when DSP chip spend more time to exchange data with their friends they have less time for processing signals. I also read somewhere that 2 STDM cables would be enough to bridge a 2 or 3 Scope Pro system even if each Scope Pro has 5 connector.

At that time, the mainboard also provided a maximum of 5 PCI ports and the PCI bandwidth was also a limitation.
And there was also the power supply limit.

But if the target is to get more IO rather than get a more DSP powerfull system, the question might be different then.

i will be just happy to have 2 or 3 PCI S|C cards connected to my PC without losing PCI performances as i'm experiencing now with 1366 socket (5 masterverb). moving to 4+ cards is maybe not so worthwile....

if you grant me 15+ masterverb with a scope and 1366 chipset, i will buy for sure if the price is acceptable!

OK, just to elaborate a bit more on that topic.

The official maximum number of "chainable" cards is 3.

19th bear just mentionned that some people have/had a 4 card system by making their own STDM cables.

Just to make things simple (correct me if I am wrong): Scope software just see the PCI boards as one board and chain the on board DSP thanks to STDM cables. I do not know if IO are connected to the scope host software through PCI or STDM would be enough.
But a Scope system the STDM connexion between all boards is necessary to share DSP ressource.

So it should be possible to make more than 3 cards work together thanks to custom STDM cables (as 19th bear told).

But you wouldn't be able to have 4 separate racks connected to a PCIe mainboard working with a unique Scope software as you have to link the differents rack with STDM cables (or you would have to create an external STDM connexion adapter maybe inspired from the Xite-1 STDM but please use a different connector male instead of femelle. And there is also the ground and power supply issue.

To sum-up:
- PCI is used for scope host software dialog, power supply the cards, get access to host RAM for memory hugry devices like reverb, samplers or delays and may also be necessary for IO handling.
- STDM connexion is used for inter-DSP data exchange and is necessary to allow the system to work.

I also wonder is if PCIe to PCI adapter can be used. Does the host software "see" the board through the PCIe to PCI bridge. The only experience I have is what my PCI to PCI Magma rack provide me.

I also wish I could find a solution to give old PCI scope cards to a second life. That's the reason why I build a rack based host for 2 of my boards to achieve a backup system as mentionned in this topic:
https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28203
I used a fanless TranquilPC rack PC to host 2 PCI boards with a compactflash Win 98 SE powered system and got something completely silent, I still use as homemade NOAH unit.

in my opinon, the cards just need a valid IRQ-handling...
since the PCIe-solution will have a additional controller and will simulate the PCI-bus without any losses, you can grow up the system to a lot of more cards becaus 4 cards share one dedicated controller...

if we can handle that the 5 STDM busses (5 for scope!) can be shared between the boxes, it may can be a lot more powerful?!
problem here is to get enough cards to try that out sonic-core don't answer on ANYTHING i write to them nor i can get anybody onto the phone...
i'm german and sonic core is a german company - they don't even have an answering maschine...

anybody here to borrow me 16 scope/SP?

if you grant me 15+ masterverb with a scope and 1366 chipset, i will buy for sure if the price is acceptable!

i ordered all the things an will try out a Luna+Pulsar+SRB-card setup in an:

dual operon quadcore, 16gb ram, dual nforce pro chipset pc...

i'll provide a masterverb-screen


so... i REALLY think, that it is possible to connect a lot more cards together if you take a look at the old PCI-bus-specifications...
66mhz, every card need an IRQ...

if you now use a dedicated controller to shipping around the IRQ-problem and THEN connect 5 s/TDM-busses with scope (you said, that theres no difference between 5 busses or 3 on a scope-connection), I really think, that there is a LOT OF HEADROOM for the cards itself if you can take a s*** on the PCI-bus....

it's really interesting and i can't wait to get the hardware-parts.... hopefully digitech will be fast, too - need to build "some" S/TDM-cables

greetings and stay tuned!

robin

Cant wait to hear more:)
-Im in denmark, and would happely test something for you (i have 2x 6 dsp cards).

i will be just happy to have 2 or 3 PCI S|C cards connected to my PC without losing PCI performances as i'm experiencing now with 1366 socket (5 masterverb). moving to 4+ cards is maybe not so worthwile....

you guys are all totally strange...
you are buying intel - you pay a lot for the name...

here is a screen of a REALLY cheap 2008 ABIT-board with an AMD Phenom X4 (first model) and 8 GB Ram,
Luna II + Pulsar I - Software 5.1, windows 7 x64...

6 Masterverbs + Bluesynth + Midi + Luna SP/DIF

6masterverbs.jpg (205.82 KiB) Viewed 7163 times

and
7 Masterverbs + Bluesynth + Midi + Luna SP/DIF

7masterverbs.jpg (209.12 KiB) Viewed 7163 times

What's the point to buy the intel-things?!!?

Cant wait to hear more:)
-Im in denmark, and would happely test something for you (i have 2x 6 dsp cards).

if we can't get enough information to do this project from sonic-core, we proberbly need to do a flashmob at their office?!

S|C can't do it. plenty on the plate right now....

thehe could do it.

there's a limit to how many chips can talk to each other as well, btw....

thehe could really bring life back to our good old cards!
I can run 6 or 7 masterverbs on a single 6dsp card, then i get pci capacity limit.. but most importantly, i cant run pro tools because of my intel motherboards poor pci performance and my scope card (at least i think!)
GO thehe!!!
Cant wait to hear a price range though... i would love to see at least 2 versions, in 2 different price ranges.

What I just wonder if the max DSP limits that seemed to be reached with 3x15 DSP systems is an overall limit.
Then using Thehe stuff to build systems using a set of 3/4/6 DSP cards would do sense.

Just imagine what you could get from a 10 x 3-DSP cards with adat expansion or LUNA 2496 expansion system in term of I/O.
You could even compete with Avid Protools HDX new stuff !!!

I just think it could be a good idea to recycle some old PCI cards, especially in case one needs lot's of I/O.
Else, if you want more DSP power, the Xite-1D and Xite-1 have a PCIe interface.

i will be just happy to have 2 or 3 PCI S|C cards connected to my PC without losing PCI performances as i'm experiencing now with 1366 socket (5 masterverb). moving to 4+ cards is maybe not so worthwile....

you guys are all totally strange...
you are buying intel - you pay a lot for the name...

here is a screen of a REALLY cheap 2008 ABIT-board with an AMD Phenom X4 (first model) and 8 GB Ram,
Luna II + Pulsar I - Software 5.1, windows 7 x64...


What's the point to buy the intel-things?!!?

i have bought a gigabyte because it was one of the two with 1366 chipset (i wanted a very fast pc!), triple channel and, most important, 3xPCI slots.
then i learnt that the PCI performances was extremely poor both on 1366 and 1155 chipset. i should have bought a 1156 with 3xPCI! now i do not have time and money to change the PC: it works fine with win7 and sonar 8.5, and i can manage the PCI bandwidth limit even if can install just 2 S|C card (the third, for some strange reason, is not recognized!)
but if i could improve by spending a relative low amount of money and also install the other S|C card i have then it will be good!

I JUST GOT RESPONSE FROM SONIC CORE ENGINEER:

He says that the maximum number of cards CAN BE 6 with a modified Software..
Where to get it, what the modifications are and where the technical limit is really (PCI vs. DSP vs BUS) is currently un-answered.

You CAN drive four (4!) Scope/SP with each 15 DSP without problems and SUPPORTED!
(4x 15 DSP --> 60 DSPs!)

So. If we are able to use the external enclosure with 4 Scope/SP - it will be great.

I asked the engineers some more details and hopefully get an answer - especially regarding the Z-Link-Specifications.
Z-Link is no more built and supported by Sonic-Core and Ferrofish...

I think about a Z-Link to MADI Converter

Let's the what will happen...

cool!

go on!

Good news,

it works! Just connected PCIe/ExpressCard with PulsarI and Luna

At the moment only 6 MasterVerb-Instances work stable in this configuration - the Controller-Vendor says, that a special driver (I will get it tomorrow) can increase the PCI-Bandwith to ship around this problem...

COOL!

Greetings,
Robin

Great to hear!
cant wait to hear if you get better performance!

What is the max number of masterverbs anyone had back in the good old days of proper PCI bus support?

something like 18, but for most systems, 10 or 12 is pretty good.

are you sure, that a old pulsarI + Luna on Scope 5.1 combo can handle 10-15??

In two different maschines with total compliant pci2.3 busses, i actualle have the magic number of 7 (6 in 100% stable) masterverbs...
both maschines >8gb ram, win7 x64...

strange?!

pulsar1?

5-7 tops.

pulsar1?

5-7 tops.

ok.. so... Results:

Machine 01 native: 7 Masterverb (little buggy... HARD LIMIT!)
Machine 02 native: 6 Masterverb - 7 unusable
Machine 01 PCIe: 6 Masterverb
Machine 02 PCIe: 6 Masterverb
Laptop ExpressCard: 6 Masterverb

All with Pulsar1 + Luna with a STDM made of old floppy-cables

Sounds good?

for a pulsar1? yes, plenty good.

IRQ-Table:
see attachment...

looks nice, too...

so... GO GO GO for a good case design

Great!
You just need to find a used pulsar2 somewhere and test to ser if you get more masterverbs, and then you are ready to go!
Cant wait to see some pictures/prices!:)

yes!
anyway, trying a masterverb test with a pulsar 1 is not the best, since the board had limited PCI performance even in the top motherboard.
the luna could be better, but only if it is the second generation. however, i do not know how to discern between first and second generation...
the best would be to try with a scope or a pulsar 2.

anyway, it's great to hear about this development!
can't look forward to more tests and price (even without a case... )

thats true.
Try the luna instead!
you can see if it is a version 2 by the ULLI settings.
If it goes down to 3 or 6 ms (cant remember which), its a luna 2:)

thats true.
Try the luna instead!
you can see if it is a version 2 by the ULLI settings.
If it goes down to 3 or 6 ms (cant remember which), its a luna 2:)

i currently have a luna II installed.. ULLI goes down to 1ms in 96khz...

so - what do you think? the pulsar I slows down the complete system? I have 5.1 only booked onto the pulsar I...

what if i plug a Pulsar II SRB into the system? will it have the optimal performance or does the pulsar I slow down all cards?

... f***...

Hmmm i don't know. Do you have any 4.0 keys for the Luna you could install?

i think the pulsar is slowing down all the PCI performances, no matter the other cards.
and the worst is that with the only luna the masterver test is limited by the 3 DSP

you should do the test with other cards... the optimum would be a 15 DSP scope.

Hmmm i don't know. Do you have any 4.0 keys for the Luna you could install?

yes, but a x64-maschine with 16gb ram

so i need 5.1

i think the pulsar is slowing down all the PCI performances, no matter the other cards.
and the worst is that with the only luna the masterver test is limited by the 3 DSP

you should do the test with other cards... the optimum would be a 15 DSP scope.

i'll swap the pulsar1, the LunaII with expension box and the 5.1 keys with somebody against 4x scope professional with 5.1 and a a16 ultra, without additional costs

sorry guys,
i thought i made a good deal with NOT upgrading the luna instead of getting a pulsarI with update already done...

is there any possibility to "transfer the licence" to the luna or a pular II srb?

f***

I wrote Mr. Dressel from SonicCore...
Maybe he can confirm that situation and helps me out to get a good testing environment.

We all want a ROCK-SOLID solution for PCIe!

i transferred the 5.1 keys to my pulsar 1 to the scope, so it can be made.
but i payed the fee...
maybe try to explain what you are doing so maybe you get the tranfser free or at least with a discount!
or ask planetZ to give 1-5 euro each to continue the development! (i woudl give you!

Me to!

i transferred the 5.1 keys to my pulsar 1 to the scope, so it can be made.
but i payed the fee...
maybe try to explain what you are doing so maybe you get the tranfser free or at least with a discount!
or ask planetZ to give 1-5 euro each to continue the development! (i woudl give you!

wow guys... good to hear that you are willing to support me, you can help me - at least - with good deals for scope-boards

so, bosone, one question:
what was the fee for transferring?

to all:
mr. dressler is informed about this project and helped me already a lot with some specifications and "where to buy"-things
GOOD MAN! i think, he has a LOT OF WORK that will result in these support-delays...

back to the topic:
What do you really want beside the PCIe/Express-Card Board?

1. Enclosure:
For my testing I bought a REALLY cheap external enclosure were the board fits in, with a 220W server power supply (stabilized etc.) and with a big 120mm cooler in front to get the cards cool (here we can put a really silent cooler in!)...
The problem with our "2U-Rack Idea" is that the board has the connectors like on a normal mainboard - maybe we can find a riser-solution here, but i'm not sure if it's good to lengthen a pci-bus with cables
We can get a 4-6U Rack-Enclosure to put the board on the right side, but this will be the overkill - totally wasting space.
The next problem is, that the gap between pci-bus-connectors is standarized... The board I got from the chinese has 4 of them like on a normal mainboard (as i said above)... this will prevent the board from beeing extended by, for example, a z-link/adat-expension...

to get this complete build cheap, i have to develop a "pci lengthening piece", so that we are able to place the pci-slots whereever we want....

what's you opinion to that?
do you really need a 2U-Rack or will be a "external cubic-like case" okay?

for completeness:
there are two versions of this case out there - one with FULL LENGTH PCI and one with "normal"... you need the full-length version for SCOPE PROFESSIONAL, the normal version will fit wonderful for luna&pulsar...

2. Connectors:
Mr. Dressler confirmed, that the software-maximum for SCOPE will be 4 boards, so we can throw away our "external STDM-bus"-idea and focus on some things else...

my ideas:
if we develop a special case for the boards, we can completely put them into (without external access) and build up BEAUTIFUL connectors to the outside...
for example:
i hate the cable-whips of pulsar.. they are really good quality but there's something hanging around behind the pc which just extremely make hitches...
so - what if we can build a case with wonderful neutrik-connectors CUSTOMIZED TO YOUR SETUP?

maybe you can send your cards in, we can built up the system, wire the connectors etc, test it and send it back or isn't that an option?

(truncated because of https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30442)

3. Widgets:
what about special passive card-coolers for the scope-boards? i measured temperature under heavy DSP-load - the airflow of one big 120mm cooler is not enough to cool the cards below 40 (degrees celsius - thank's to https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30442) - not very good... a passive cooler could work here!
for that, you have to send in the cards when we got a supplier for the special-dimension coolers (see 2.)

what about temperature-LCD-display for each DSP? (nice widget !)

4. Performance:
I got 7 Masterverb stable on LunaII+PulsarI... Same result as in an ABIT AN8 32X, ABIT AN78GS and TYAN THUNDER...,
but I can't test more - I'm think to buy a PulsarII SRB for about 200 bucks (EUROS) - but I'm a student - initially i only wanted a good I/O and routing-solution... no hardcore dsp-power...
If i can be sure to get the cards away any day (if i need money) i can buy the SRB...

What's your oppinion? How much is the fish on PCIe/ExpressCard LunaII+PulsarI+PulsarSRB with 5.1?

5. Specifications from SonicCore:
I asked Mr. Dressler for the Z-Link-Specification.. he says that "it maybe get available but not for now"... so the Z-Link to MADI ideas are to throw away into a big bin of good ideas...
Next I asked for a SDK to provide (for example) a S/P-DIF AC-3 Output for testing Dolby mixes with normal home-audio equipment... Same here, i will become available, but not now and when i comes, it will require a dongle (have to pay for it then... )

I don't trust to ask him again for a specification of S/TDM for example, but a great thing would be, if we can put a little TFT-Screen into the box to see the DSP loads etc. etc....

it would be wonderful if you share your thoughts about that with me - i have to make some decisions now

greetings,
robin

Its a great idea if it gets off the ground I'd like to cover it in ScopeRise.

FYI I get 12 materverbs on 3 x PCI cards (ASUS PK5E)

so, bosone, one question:
what was the fee for transferring?

don't remember but i think in the 70-80 € range.

What do you really want beside the PCIe/Express-Card Board?

actually, nothing!
as i suggested, my first aim is low price... so the idea could be to arrange the connection board / PCB you will produce with holes to fit in a standard PC case, so you already have an enclosure easily available. you just take an old case and insert the boards (yours and S|C ones).
you can also use an old PC power supply, provided that you will be able to turn on in some way before or during the startup of your main computer...

i hate the cable-whips of pulsar.. they are really good quality but there's something hanging around behind the pc which just extremely make hitches...
so - what if we can build a case with wonderful neutrik-connectors CUSTOMIZED TO YOUR SETUP?

why not!
someone could use them!

maybe you can send your cards in, we can built up the system, wire the connectors etc, test it and send it back or isn't that an option?

mmmhhh... you have to stop the studio activity... not suitable for pros, maybe, and too expensive (2x shipping costs) for hobbysts
[/quote]

what about special passive card-coolers for the scope-boards? i measured temperature under heavy DSP-load

T has never been a problem for S|C boards

4. Performance:
I got 7 Masterverb stable on LunaII+PulsarI... Same result as in an ABIT AN8 32X, ABIT AN78GS and TYAN THUNDER...,
What's your oppinion? How much is the fish on PCIe/ExpressCard LunaII+PulsarI+PulsarSRB with 5.1?

that's a good and standard result considering the pulsar 1. i had the same on my old ASUS p4c800-e deluxe, one of the best system for S|C. i don't think you will go beyond this with pulsar 1. you definitely have to test the system with a 15 DSP board or a pulsar 2+luna

Next I asked for a SDK to provide (for example) a S/P-DIF AC-3 Output for testing Dolby mixes with normal home-audio equipment... Same here, i will become available, but not now and when i comes, it will require a dongle (have to pay for it then... )

you can ask someone to do this for you, i think!

have a good work!

keep in mind to not make it only for scope cards. UAD, and pro tools cards could be used in your box as well:) (another income source)
ABout the cable whip problem:
Maybe it could be solved like this:



that way, you dont need to have the actual cards anywhere near the back of the box, you just need extender cables.
-i dont think the whole "sending in for soldering " is a good idea, i wouldnt do it because of the posibilly of loosing my card in the mail, and i would have to stop doing any audio work in the same period.

-And as said before, heat was never a problem for scope cards. so i dont think we really need an extra cooler, unless it would be dirt cheap!
-i think a 2 unit rack box is essential for a portable solution. there is *no way* i would carry around an extra computer case along with my laptop if i wanted to do any field recording/editing.
So i think a pci riser/angle converter is essential for the 2 unit box. And i dont think it would add any problems to you setup, its like maybe 2 extra centimeters..
I personally would be happy with a 2 card solution..

But most of all: It has to be CHEAP to compete with virtuvia/magma. ANd as i have said before, maybe you could do a version with all the cool things like temperature measurement etc on an expensive box, and then a cheap box that just has the case/cables.
Or even: A diy solution. We buy a kit from you (with/without box) and put everything together ourselves. - i could actually see that happening. i think many of the scope users are "play around with computers" kind of poeple, and if i could save money and have extra fun/learn new stuff, i would love a DIY solution!
So maybe 3 versions:expensive, normal and diy that would allow any combination of expensive/normal. with/without case (that way you could put the whole thing into an existing PC case if you really wanted to save money)


Good luck!

PCI Risers just work without in trouble here (in my TranquilPC based unit for example).

Regarding the Temp, I didn't add any cooler but the passive silent one that is built in the unit is for the main CPU.

Regarding the whiper cables, a conversion harness could be a smart solution, but be cautious with cost.

Regarding the size of the case, I assume the rack size would be the easiest to integrate for many of us.

Regarding the "widgets": I do not think you could have any hints about the DSP use from the STDM connection. You have to get it from the scope system so maybe easier to integrate if even possible so maybe a good addition to any host case.

For testing purpose you should definetely get a 14/15 DSP card as this would also give you the possibly to get the SDK...

here is a cheap 15 dsp card for sale if you need one thehe!
https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php ... 39#p278639

Good news guys...

I got in contact with the company EXSYS, who just imports the china boards and got a cheap solution:

For sure you can buy the products somewhere else but do not forget, that now I am distributor and will order those for you with prepayment (sure with correct invoice etc., if you have a valid Ust-ID/VAT-ID for EU, maybe VAT-free!)
(You will support further enhancements )

Expension Boxes with (very loud - needs to be replaced) cooler and 220W-power supply [PCI-e Card not included]:


long version, 31cm inner/40cm out: 279EUR plus shipping


short version, 31cm inner/40cm out: 249EUR plus shipping



Host-Board (with ATX ADAPTER TO FIT IN NORMAL PC CASE!!!),
provides 4 PCI from PCIe, ExpressCard or PCI Slot: 199EUR plus shipping

Host Boards:
PCI (not PCIe!) Host-Board - 49EUR plus shipping
PCIexpress Host-Board (incl. half-height adapter [Server or HTPC-Cases]) - 39EUR plus shipping
ExpressCard Host-Board (with 1m cable) - 39EUR plus shipping
ExpressCard Host-Board (with pluggable 2m cable) - 55EUR plus shipping

Custom modding and services:
Custom built S/TDM-cable with ferrite core (magnetic core) for up to 4 card connections - 10-20EUR plus shipping
(if your card setup differs pulsar one, luna II or [hopefully] scope sp, you have to provide correct lenghts or just send the cards in for a couple of days)

Custom 120mm cooler (low noise) with additional temperature regulation board - 20EUR plus shipping

If you want to get a combination of the products, shipping costs will be combined - for sure!


I can't say a lot to the performance - as you now, 7 Masterverbs with a pulsar I based setup...
Hopefully I will get in the next days a lot of horsepowers from a very helpful and nice guy...
But it works like a charm in general!

One problem:
It's NOT hotpluggable... You have to power on the box and then boot up your PC/Laptop because it will require the BIOS init process to recognize the cards...

So...
just to make it clear - this is "status quo" because the costs are much lower than our self-developed solution!
we are investigating a custom rack-unit development for the scope system...
maybe possible with some custom risers and the solution (see at top)...

Greetings,
Robin

Addtional meta-information:
I got the box working with a good 15meter cable between box and computer - how is that?
after some testing, i will sell the cable, too...

keep in mind to not make it only for scope cards. UAD, and pro tools cards could be used in your box as well:) (another income source)

Come on... pro tools? UAD? RME?... they have to pay the FULL PENALTY OF MAGMA!

ABout the cable whip problem:
Maybe it could be solved like this:

This is EXACTLY what's on my mind... beautiful drawing But it's totally custom? if you have a luna and maybe 3 pulsar I you'll have:

2x Midi In/Out
1x Midi-Thru
1x S/P-DIF I/O
1x AES/EBU I/O
1x Analog balanced I/O
1x Analog unbalanced I/O
1x Z-Link (Firewire)

... not very handy?! you can build this bunch of things only very "small and simple" if you'll send the cards in.. the lengths etc must be good...
Another problem:
Where to get this Pulsar-Break-Out-Connector!? It looks very "it was already custom at the 1990s" (like the S/TDMs)

that way, you dont need to have the actual cards anywhere near the back of the box, you just need extender cables.
-i dont think the whole "sending in for soldering " is a good idea, i wouldnt do it because of the posibilly of loosing my card in the mail, and i would have to stop doing any audio work in the same period.

not sending in for soldering - sending in to built the adapters from card-connectors to backplane...
I am not willing to solder on the cards!!!

-And as said before, heat was never a problem for scope cards. so i dont think we really need an extra cooler, unless it would be dirt cheap!

After a couple of days i can't agree with you! the box totally heats up - the power-supply and 2-4 cards WITHOUT any airflow will kill them...
the solution i posted above only has ONE loud 120mm cooler which will be okay BUT it's loud.. i replaced it with a low noise fan and temperature controlling, but the cards are heating up... you NEED this cooler...

-i think a 2 unit rack box is essential for a portable solution. there is *no way* i would carry around an extra computer case along with my laptop if i wanted to do any field recording/editing.

i think the boxes (see above) are okay for transporting - you can put it in a rack, too, but they don't LOOK like what i want..
maybe a beautiful aluminum rack with "parker computer manufactory" (parker is my lastname) engraved? ...

So i think a pci riser/angle converter is essential for the 2 unit box. And i dont think it would add any problems to you setup, its like maybe 2 extra centimeters..
I personally would be happy with a 2 card solution..

I think it's no real problem to enlength it with 2-4 cm, but in the ultimate solution we need a lot more!
my dream-case would be:
2-4U, 4 cards with each one expansion-slot --> 8 Slots, 4x PCI... 2-3 vertically aligned.. 2-4 rows of cards horizontally...

have to see...

Special for you:
Maybe i can get for you a 2 PCI-Board from the vendor!? I can figure it out if you want...

But most of all: It has to be CHEAP to compete with virtuvia/magma. ANd as i have said before, maybe you could do a version with all the cool things like temperature measurement etc on an expensive box, and then a cheap box that just has the case/cables.

I think about 300EUR is a good deal?

Or even: A diy solution. We buy a kit from you (with/without box) and put everything together ourselves. - i could actually see that happening. i think many of the scope users are "play around with computers" kind of poeple, and if i could save money and have extra fun/learn new stuff, i would love a DIY solution!

see above

So maybe 3 versions:expensive, normal and diy that would allow any combination of expensive/normal. with/without case (that way you could put the whole thing into an existing PC case if you really wanted to save money)

Okay, the damn easy and DIY-solution are online above...
The cool things are following?

Good luck!

Thank you

Nice alternative to magma actually ...

Nice alternative to magma actually ...

a lot cheaper i think

Looks really interesting!
I just have to get scope to work with pro tools somehow, and then i might get one of your boxes!!

not as cheap as i imagined, but actually an interesting price.
I could make the investment if it is proven useful (high masterverb test) in the future, also because it would grant me another 10 years of scope fun!

go on and keep us updated!

Is there any way to get it working via usb? (maybe multiple ports)
im thinking:
the signal is converter form pci to PCIe, but could we have an optional USB thingy?
I know the bandwith will suffer ALOT! But it would be great if i had acces to my scope cards on the go, just for recording - not for big projects with reverb etc - just maybe 8 channels of audio via adat, and one tiny mixer.
Would that be possible?

Is there any way to get it working via usb? (maybe multiple ports)
im thinking:
the signal is converter form pci to PCIe, but could we have an optional USB thingy?
I know the bandwith will suffer ALOT! But it would be great if i had acces to my scope cards on the go, just for recording - not for big projects with reverb etc - just maybe 8 channels of audio via adat, and one tiny mixer.
Would that be possible?

USB will be the bottleneck of bottlenecks... should be skipped right NOW - by the way: USB uses chunked transfer; firewire streaming think about the early usb-days where only FW-soundcards were produced - this is the reason -- so, maybe with a great USB3 chipset we can... but there is expresscard, as i told you via PM.

Greetings

Ok guys...

some news:
Got additonal 45 DSP in 3 Cards.
They won't work together with a Luna II - so the euphemism was broken...
When I tried MasterVerbs with the four Cards installed (3x 15+Luna) it was possible to load a lot more than 25 Masterverbs - but no output - nothing... After some playing with Sample-Rate and connections a box popped up and said, that there is an inavalid S/TDM... after some measurements i decided to pull off the fourth card - all works great but:

i only get to load 10 MasterVerb's without warnings in 44,1/16.

not the best result for this bunch of hardware?

- I'm currently unsure, if the external controller or my Dual-Processor Mainboard is the problem - i will try that setup with my intel this week and report the progress...

Greetings,
Robin

If you get 10 MVs running you shouldn't be disappointed Of course more is better but i think most people will find that performance satisfactory. Good idea to test it with another system though, to check for variations.

I think maxing up with 3 cards will not be a showstopper as long as they get a good performance 3-card system

Keep up the good work!

yes, being able to use 3 card and get 10 masterverbs is quite good and quite usable!

Maybe, the number of board can be raised to 4 but then you have to use smaller board then.

I read once here that a 3 Scope Pro system (3x15 DSP) and a 2 Scope Pro (14/15 DSP) + 1 Scope Project (6DSP) system do not provide very different performance. Hence sharing data calculation between DSP involve exchanging data betweeen the DSP, so performance increase cannot be linear with DSP number increase and kind of saturate on big DSP system.

But your solution could also be usefull to setup a system with 4 smaller board .
- A gang of 4 Luna would provide the equivalent DSP power of 2 Scope Project.
- A gang of 1 Scope Project + 3 Luna would be equivalent to 1 big Scope Pro
- A gang of 3 Pulsar + 1 Luna woould also provide something similar to 1 Scope Pro

The trick could be the IO available on such systems

And once again, it could be quite a good way to recycle old small cards.

can totally agree here - if you spend ~300EUR for a external box with laptop-connector etc. you have a good and powerfull recording solution or a really nice hardware or effect unit - the cards are simply to cool to put into trash.

we should see i'll try a lot of different configurations in the next days and provide some results - maybe some statistical data...

greetings

Any new news with this?

Me too, how is it going?

here's another 4 x PCI box

http://www.cooldrives.com/1popcto4xpci.html

No PLX PEX8111 or PEX8112 PCIe-to-PCI bridge chipset on the PCIe host card as far as i can discover.

Yep, but probably too small.
- 14/15 DSP and 6 DSP cards wouldn't fit
- maybe a 3/4 DSP combo could fit but this would mean 9 to 12 DSP max ...

Could be nice for recycling small boards (if it works) but then why not building a small old-spec PC with a not that fast CPU just to run this unit as a satellite sub-system ...

@HUROLURA
the idea of having 2 computer, the main one and a second old PC with the scope system is totally unpractical for me...
you should switch with a moniotr/mouse/keyb swithc between the 2 PC each time you have to edit something in the pulsar environment, then go back to the main pc in which you have the sequencer, for example...
better keep everything on the same PC (for me at least!)

@bosone

I agree, but unfortunately main computer is a MAC and until (and if!) sonic ports Scope the the MAC i'm pretty much screwed..!!

My main machine is an iMac running Pro Tools and the Scope is on an old G4 400. I use VNC to control Scope from the iMac. No problems there

VNC seems a good option!
i did not consider it

here's another 4 x PCI box

http://www.cooldrives.com/1popcto4xpci.html

This looks promising...In regards to the box being too small, I imagined that one could make a new box to put this in, no.

This gives me hope.

I think I shall order this soon

here's another 4 x PCI box

[...]
No PLX PEX8111 or PEX8112 PCIe-to-PCI bridge chipset on the PCIe host card as far as i can discover.

[...]

Dear vascomusic,

I think exactly this is what you DON'T want.
In my holy opinion, the Controller-Chip on my Exsys-Solution handles the IRQ's for the Scope-Cards.
The board (mentioned in your post) looks only like a riser-card - your mainboard will handle IRQs and the other stuff and this will mainly result in conflicts. You all know, that IRQ-Conflicts will take down the hole SC-System.

IN ADDITION:

Please think about the power consumption of the cards, too!
As I mentioned a lot of posts above, I stood in contact with Exsys and Sonic-Core and figured out, that the cards need a lot of power.

All the "cheap little PCI-Boxes" provide only the theoretical minimum of PCI-Specification for power!

All this sounds very interesting! Anybody else tried that exsys solution?

All this sounds very interesting! Anybody else tried that exsys solution?

update: works like a charm

can you post some more info??

Did I get it correctly, that the smaller EXSYS version holds the same board with different Power adaptor, to allow many hungry DSPs to work? The bigger ones just have a bigger case & a bigger powersupply?

Someone knows the cheapest way to get them in germany?

Did I get it correctly, that the smaller EXSYS version holds the same board with different Power adaptor, to allow many hungry DSPs to work? The bigger ones just have a bigger case & a bigger powersupply?

Someone knows the cheapest way to get them in germany?

dear mccy,

i think so, because exsys sells the board (1pcie -> 4pci) in only ONE version without any case...

i live here in germany and had to get distributor of exsys-products to get one piece "a little bit cheaper" - try just google around and send me a pm so that we can compare - maybe i can get somehing for you little cheaper.

greetings

can you post some more info??

For long cards ...
http://www.exsys.ch/download/catalog/ex_1031.pdf

For short cards ...
http://www.exsys.ch/download/catalog/ex_1032.pdf

according to the manufacturer,- it ...
"Is ideally suited for DSP (Digital Sound Processor) based audio card"

PSU is the same for both,- 220W.

german shop ...
http://www.exsys.de/shop/



Bud

definitely interesting...
thx!

Hey guys,

we are young computer scienctists and something popped into our mind:

What do you think of a 96 (4x pulsar adat) to 160 (4x scope adat) ADAT-I/O-Solution with
ONE SINGLE PCI-EXPRESS x1
or
ONE SINGLE EXPRESSCARD (for laptops)?

Should we develop something in this way?

It's a huge mobile recording platform without any big CPU-load as you know from firewire-devices...

Greetings,
Robin

No to laptops. Yes to PCIe desktop. No to ridiculously high price. Why only 1X?

Hallo Guys

Im Anabella, I have 3 x 15 DSP systeme Scope Cards. Today I ordered the exsys ex-1031 with the pcie-card connector. Im from germany. I payed about 300 bucks for that. I hope I can and not (smile and not die).

In the next few days I hope to send you a positive reaction. Most boards on the market are shit, because the pci connector dies out. I hope this solution can reanimate all these beautiful 15 DSP Boards on this planet. The exite is to expensive for most of us. And 10 times more power than a scope 15 dsp??? Is this really true, or marketing trick?

45 DSPs are enough to survive. If it works I would have 45 DSPs and 32 Audio inputs and 32 outputs. Yes one of the boards is a SRB.

wanna hear my results?!?!

i hope it works great.

how is an XITE-1D expensive? i know it's not cheap, but it costs just about 1 1/2 times what a fiftenn dsp card used to cost and it's about as powerful as three of those cards...

I guess it's cheaper to give the cards a new life in a new PCI box...

Hey there! Hey anabella!

I would like to know, how this EXSYS solution work! I think about the same solution for my notebook with Express Card (via EXSYS 4 x PCI Slot Expansions Box, 220 Watt Power Supply 12121690 http://www.exsys.ch/download/catalog/ex_1031.pdf ).

Cheers,, A.

Hi guys! IT is cheaper, Dont compare prices frommen 2002,go to ebay, and get those cards, or if There is the Case that you have already one or to cards AT Home, you could upgrade easyly one more cards,you dont need to Pay thousands of bucks for an excite cards. And btw, how much power do you REALLY need?

I got the exsys 1031and a PCIE Adapter AT Home now, but I still wait for my cards upgrade from ebay. So keep it um, ill be back in a few days!

Hey guys, I had 3 bad days, the fucking exsys 1031 does not work correct, i get really disapointed, dont try this shit, i send back today

3 x 15 dsp cards produce only the fucking pci overflow error. Makes me crazy

So I guess using this box for 3 x 15 dsp is out. Unless there was a defect.
What other option do we have?

a motherboard that works....
there are plenty of them.

PCI is obsolete. it's just a matter of buying what will work and not one of the popular gamer boards.

I still have my original mobo ( computer) with backup mobos and CPUs
I was just thinking for the future and for transporting my cards around.
My cards still work great and have a lot of power for what I need.
I was mostly courious.
Abviously a Xite would be the best solution!

there are still motherboards with PCI slots. you'll probably want a server board because the gamer boards usually have 2 slots max these days.
the Gigabyte 1156 motherboards had 3 and 4 slots and used i7s that are still pretty fast.
there are still socket 775 motherboards made with 3 and 4 slots.

sooner or later, there simply won't be many boards with multiple PCI slots, it's just what the industry wants to do.

??? Hey garyb can I buy this pc only 580 euro :
the mobo has 3x pci
http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/P8H67/
Gamer-Gehäuse AeroCool StrikeX (neu) 

- 500 Watt RaptoxxMarken-Netzteil

- Top Motherboard: ASUS P8H67

- Intel Prozessor der 4. Generation: Intel Core I7 3770, Quadcore 4 x 3.4GHz bis 3.9GHz

-schneller Markenspeicher : 8GB DDR3 PC1333 Dualchannel 

- Multi-DVD-Brenner LG, SATA

- 2TB Festplatte Seagate 7200rpm S-ATA3


- TOP-Gamer-Grafikkarte : 1024MB Palit Geforce GTX560 Sonic Platinum

socket 1155=no go.

socket 1155 is almost the only form factor that does not work.

Thx for the fast answer, Im still unhappy, having 3 dreamcards creamware á 15 dsps here on my table!

http://www.supermicro.com/products/moth ... /x8dai.cfm

found this strange mobo, does this work with my phantastic 3x15 dsp farm ?

Or can you give me an idea which most moderne pc could make me happy?

I want a fastest PC!

X8DAi creamware

https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&p=289253

i built two machines with that motherboard. it's fantastic, even if the 1366 XEONs are a bit on the old side. it's VERY fast with two processors each having their own memory bank....

one was for this Forum's GregH. as far as i know, it's working very well for him.

the other is for Bill Goldstein, a guy who can use anything he wants. http://www.williamgoldstein.com/

also, i have a socket 775 machine that i built for GregH several years ago that works great for sale @ $250. it's super clean in an Antec tower and a blank harddrive. it has a Core2 Duo and 3 slots and has run 3 cards with no problems. Greg doesn't need it now that he has the new machine.

Hello anabella!

>> Hey guys, I had 3 bad days, the fucking exsys 1031 does not work correct,
>> i get really disapointed, dont try this shit, i send back today

Did you try it with just one or two cards?
This overflow message appears only in a bigger projects or permanently?
Witch machine are you using (laptop, stand alone PC, CardBus or PCMCIA interface to thr box, Windows7 ???)

Cheers, A.

mh.

i'm running three scope's without any problems with my exsys solution on a win8x64-maschine with DUAL-PROCESSORS.
It's a tyan thunder n6650w (s2915-e) with two opteron dual-cores and 32gigs ram.

greetings
thehe

Hi, thehe!

>> three scope's
Three 15DSP ones? Or have you smaller ones?

Cheers, A.

Any new experiences?
I would still be interested in a smaller external version for pulsar II, Luna, Pulsar srb...
I don't need superhigh pci bandwidth, just would love to connect cards to laptop, play some synths, do recordings with lots of inputs...
From time to time I just start experimenting again with new ways to use scope. Actually three PCs are equipped with cards...

Martin