Drum devices

Hi All,

Since I have been asked repeatedly about doing a drum box device, I'd like to know what it is about the current offerings that is not 'satisfying' to Pulsar users. What is it that you want/need more of, or that needs to be different?

I have the EDS 8 & 16i, and Adern's 'kickme'. I can see a whole set from Adern would be quite wonderful, since the kickme device has such a great sound to it. (I don't know if he is planning on a complete set, though.)

In any case, I'm just now looking into this, and would love to hear from people, either directly, or in this forum.

regards,

thanx for asking for input!

Specifically about the eds series, all thier envelopes are quite weak sounding.. In other words, their peaks aren't quite pointy enough. It's also a similar problem in modular, where I have to combine 2 AD EGs to achieve really snappy envelopes. Also, I think the eds series also sufferes from non synced oscilators (not synced with keystroke) so you end up with a slightly different kick sound every time. Kickme is synced I believe.

eds series also lacks any sort of serious filter. It does come with a lowpass or highpass, but you can't set Q on these and they also seem to have a preset range. It also might be better if you used a state variable (multimode) filter so the user can choose which filter type to use.

Many users have also requested an AHD envelope as the hold can be used to create extra body and punch. (mainly for kick drums)

I personally have a custom mod patch that I use for all my analogue style kicks, and it has an AHD for VCA, and 2 AD combined for pitch. (an AD for overall pitch, and an AD for the beginning "snap") Uses MultiOSC. Seems good enough for most occasions.

Finally, as a realistic problem, I don't like using prefab drumkits because they're too DSP heavy. Seems better if you have different devices for each instrument, or be able to turn off instruments to save DSP. (I guess this one was pretty obvious) I also doubt you need to have hardwired effects like overdrive, phase, or delay since I do them on the mixer side anyway.

so, that's my idea. I imagine everyone has their own "dream" drum machine idea.

Ahhh, drum machines. I've been a huge fan of drum machiens for many years. I have owned 808, 606, 909, Drumulator, SC Tom & Dumtracks etc etc and all the way through software machines.

By far the best at the moment imho is the Microtonic, a really superb machine.



The only major criticism I have of that machine is the miserable 16-steps. I'd venture that no serious drum programmer uses just 16-step patterns - 32 is a must. Chaining patterns together is a pain in the a...

So that's number 1: must have 32-steps. Of course that's assuming you have an on-board pattern bank, so: must also have onboard pattern bank.

I also vote for forgetting about loading external sounds - there are squillions of drum-sampler types devices. Let's just focus on pure synthesis.

And my absolute all-time wish for a SFP drum machine is that it might have the ability to export its own patterns as a wav loop (with the effects tail "wrapped" to the start). Probably a forlorn hope, or just impossible... but what a joy (for me) to be able to export a SFP wav file using SFP effects etc

On-board effects would also be nice, but the only ones that would be really useful I think are multiple delays - perhaps even something approaching the excellent SFP pattern delay. You can get so much happening with a flexible delay. One that you can define the usual sync divisions to, but also I'd like a "variation" knob which would let you push the timing out just a little bit out so you could get nice "doubled" effects. An synced-LFO to modulate the delay time would also be nice.

I'd also like the GUI to be BIG. It should be a synth, plus have room for (say) six displayed rows of 32 steps each.

That's a lot of little buttons, but think about what makes FL Studio so famously good at drums: it's the big, open, resizeable grid. No point in cramming things up - this sort of programming has a very high visual element. And on the buttns themselves, one click to place a sound, one click to get rid of it - none of this two-click SFP rubbish that we have on the seq modules...

Going back to the Microtonic, the other features missing imho are an bpm-synced LFO on the filter; and BPM sync on the oscillator's LFO.

But the accent and fill buttons are very good. A more heavily worked version of the "fill" function might yeild some great possibilties ?

Better stop now before I get really carried away...

One other point that's so important it deserves its own slot...

Please let's not have some cheesey pre-defined sounds like BD1, BD2, snare1, tom1,2,3 and then just be allowed slight variations on the core sound.

Only full synthesis for every sound is good enough !

Ah, I guess it's also going to be a question of a 'drum machine' or just a 'drum sound module'. So far, there's nothing in the drum machine area, with step sequencing patterns, etc. Is that what the Pulsar community wants? Often times I'm told that the step sequencers in various products (SB-404, my Pro One and Solaris) are not needed since everyone is using some kind of software sequencer.

Thanks for pointing out FL Studio and Microtonic - I've never heard of either one before! (The FL stuff looks pretty nice...)

John,

Me, unlike Spirit, I don't like drummachines at all. I've worked with them a lot but never could get used to te sound, mainly cymbals but also toms and snare! I never heard a cymbal module sound good (in my ears)

I do like the Kick-Me !!

when I can't work with a real drumkit I use most of the times drum samples, Wizzoo Platinum drum kits sounds ok.

As for the software sequencer I would love to have a Scope dsp sequncer, somthing like in your Solaris, but more extended.

As I said somewhere before I would like to work without Cubase, as I only use it as midi seq. I do all my audio recording mixing and all effects in Scope.

Terranova Amsterdam

well some sort of the Waldorf Attack as a Pulsar Device would be really genious...

cheerz,
GenoX

Often times I'm told that the step sequencers in various products (SB-404, my Pro One and Solaris) are not needed since everyone is using some kind of software sequencer.

The way I see it, lots of people would use onboard sequencers on a drum box, and specifically a drumbox. If you think of a seq pattern as a loop, it's easy to understand. Lots of people use sampled loop drums and put together an arrangement in the sequencing software on top of it.

I believe that a good pattern matrix is a crucial part of any drum-machine. Arranging drum parts in a "normal" sequencer piano roll isn't good enough - again which is why FL Studio is so popular for drums - it's the matrix. It's also why dedicated drum machines such as the Microtonic are popular.

Part of this is ergonomics. You don't necessarily want to have drum patterns tied exclusively to a particular song.

If anyone works like me then you often "doodle" with drum patterns. You might have 10 or 110 of such doodles waiting for their moment of a glory in a song.

Your bank of doodles is then like your own preset list of loops to drop in. It is also where you might have written new drum sounds too. And perhaps your doodle written for 180bpm will sound fantastic dropped into your new 90bpm track...

(Being able to instantly swap individual sounds - or all sounds - for alternate saved versions is also a vital feature.)

If the drum machine is nothing more than a sound-source then you can have no patterns pre-prepared to mutate, but must start at zero every time.

So I think the matrix is not just a convenience, but would be fundamental to how the device is perceived and how people would work with it.

---
Let's hear as many opinions as possible on this fascinating sbject !
---

I like the wish list of Spirit very much, you can see he knows working with these machines.
Ken's wish for very fast envelops is also a good one.
John, you're right, people love to stick to their software sequencer, like I do
(The piano roll is harsh for drum programming, personnally I put everything as a loop in the loop slicing Phatmatic Pro VSTi).
But in this case, a really good walklight stepsequencer that is easy to use, I think it can seduce me to program my beats at least partly in SP

Spirit's random timing variation idea is great, I'd like to add another side of it.
I just finished drum programming in a new song, using NI Batterie VSTi.
With this it's very easy to apply modulation to a sample's pitch, in a very subtle way (random bi-polar, amongst other modes).
It keeps the ridms very lifely (not specially 'live'), so this is my wish on the list
This pitch/timing variation is not only important in 'real or 'live' drum' ridms, electronic ridms benefits also lovely from it
happy thinking on this drum machine, John

_________________
Let There Be Music!

In addition to traditional Osc, maybe have sample Osc much like your "Proph@t Plus". I like the sequencer idea a lot too.

I second the random timing idea. maybe there could be 2 controls, 1 for odd 16th beats, and another for even 16th beats. And don't forget the swing control too. (the random value can be combined with the swing value)

Hi there,
I have drum wishes or ideas.
I would like a simple "snare me" kind of device.
Also, in the groovebox mc303, one important feature is the included filter (LowPass (notched?)+Resonance).

Ok with everybody,

I noticed that all drum synthesis (Kick me, eds ...) produce kicks which content only odd harmonics (50,150,250 ...) they sound hollow to me.
A spectral view on analog kicks (909, jomox ...) shows that they contains all the harmonics (50,100,150,200 ...), sound is massive ....

---> IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FOR A GOOD SOUNDING KICK

So a particular attention has to be brought to the basis oscillators ....
I will post this WE what I consider to be the ultimate OSC for kick synthesis, waveform looks like a suite of a capacitor charge and discharge.

Faybs,

Your concern about the basic waveforms won't be a problem with the design approach I'm considering doing....

The 32 steps is a problem, though, at least with the current step sequencer block I'm using in Pro One and Solaris. There's no way to edit the block, at least until we developers get the new SDK.

OTOH, Adern/Assaf Dar seems to have been able to construct some cool things without Script editing - perhaps he will come out with a real step sequencer for general Pulsar-related things?

It will be much easier for me to start with just a sound-generating device, then have something with a pattern sequencer added at a later date, if I ever get greater access to editing things on a lower level. All of the requests for slight deviations of timing, and so on - these are all beyond what I can do with the present Scope atoms.

And how about some comments on the Modular drum modules - I haven't heard much regarding these: the MDS8 gives the grid pattern function; then there's the DrumSynth, DrumOSC, sDrumOSC, percOSC, and HH Source...any comments about those?

john b.
zarg music

If it's just a sound device then perhaps at some later date they could drop into a step sequencer shell ? Sort of Red Dwarf style ?

Of the current drum modules I have a very low opinion. The hats module is completely forgettable. The only module worth bothering about is the full drum synth, but it lacks a bpm-sync LFO, so again its ability to produce interesting sounds is limited.

EQ, and a super-fast LFO to produce a pseudo cross-mod sounds would all be nice.


If there were delays's built into the device, then would it be possible to select the BPM-sync, but also to have the rate sliders (or knobs etc) still active so that a little "nudge" of the slider would rlease the delay from BPM-sync and push it a little bit out from its former sync value ?

In fact a good delay would add a lot imho. With a good unit you could get flange, flam, the usual delays, and perhaps something approaching a sort of fill pattern if it incorporated elements of the CWA "pattern delay" idea ?

A LFO to modulate delay time (mentioned earlier) might also be very nice.

I suppose having an effects slot (or two) would be even easier development-wise so long as each slot device was saved with the patch. Not so elegant in device terms though, it all gets a bit slow and messy.

But at least it'd then be easier to concentrate on building a really solid module.

I think synthesised drums have moved way, way beyond the 808 sound or the snare, tom, electro-tom sound.

We need something more like a mini synth but optimised for percussion. A device that can get some truly unique sounds. There's no point trying to emulate acoustic drums - why not just use samples ?

A more versatile oscillator with extreme parameters would be good. Resonance designed to be used at the extreme range,really finely tweakable envlopes etc

And sliders, not knobs

More later (can't help blathering ..,)

The MDS8 is useless imho. The three click states is just slow and annoying, 16-steps is absolutely useless, and the little squares are too small.

If its a grid then it has to be done with commitment - big, clear buttons, fast functionality, and the ability to drag the nouse across the buttons to paint in material fast, not just one click at a time.

I did make a little drum machine here that uses it, but still....

https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic ... f=15&3




Either go all the way and do the grid right or forget it. The MDS8 is half-assed, antiquated and forgettable.

When are you finally going to learn to make your own 32 step seq? It's been explained to you how to do it. Apparently you seem to ignore it completely, why's that? In the meantime you keep stressing the fact that you don't have a 32 step sequencer. WTF?

Make one in ModIII ? But why when the existing modules are not up to native plug standards anyway ? Some cumbersome mess hooking up and syncing modules together ? Come on, that's like a lesson on "how to turbo-charge your Model-T Ford".

But JB is holding out the promise here of a device that would be a real audio standout.

And in any case, perhaps you missed the part in this thread which asks for opinions and comments. So "WTF" right back at you

Maybe instead you might have something constructive to add to the debate ?

Things are getting hot in here !

Just goes to show that it IS a subject where lots of people feel concerned.

I think that whatever John accomplish, it's gonna be a hit. The subject itself is too hot

oki..

Spirit, connecting modules to get greater functionallity is what the whole modular thing is about. [edit] What stops you from making a MIDI track in Fruity and using its nnn steps sequencer to drive SFP drum devices?

John, thanks for asking about My personal view on a drum kit: no need to insert a sequencer, I have my own. No need to insert effects, as it will be hard to put all my effects inside one device. I'll put my own behind the drum machine, which preferably has different outputs for each drum sound, a la EDS8i. Do you have fast envelopes and an osc that properly retriggers? These are essential for good drum devices.
So something as simple as EDS8i would be great, provided it has faster envelopes and an osc that retriggers properly.

Cheers

_________________
More has been done with less.

I do seem to agree with Spirit, if the device were to be step sequencer based.(big buttons for easy control etc.) But considering John Bowen's idea on concentrating in sound generation first, I think it's a good idea to keep things simple and focused. Envelopes and osc retrigger. Those 2 seem to be the essential things that we need for now.

I also recall that Plasma had some sort of limiter/compressor of some sort that was built in, but hidden. (user can't touch or see it) I'm just guessing it's a limiter/compressor, but its dynamics would be different from time to time, which did create an interesting character. So, something "hidden" like that may be just simple fun.

All of which just goes to show the huge range of possible functionality.

It ranges from a basic, but well done, sound source all the way up to an integrated device with step sequencer and effects - and everything in between.

Myself, I like the grid for drums like Reason, Microtonic, Orion or FL Studio. Favourite is FL Studio where you set it for whatever you like: 16, 24, 32 ...

I also like to be able to program the full sound in one location. That way a particularly nice snare with a little flam, or a touch of flange, or a certain EQ, or a cascading delay with filter effects, is ready for me to use somewhere else.

Don't know about other people, but I have a few drum sounds (& basic foundation loops) which I use quite often, then I make the rest up to suit the song...

Others obviously prefer just to flow a basic sound through the full mixing & processing rig to get the final effect.

Seems to me that a decision on this aspect of the device is the essential question: Is it going to be a "raw" source, or is it going to have a largely finished "produced" sound ?

Then perhaps will it just be a single sound source like KickMe or the Wavelength DrumVox, or incorporate multiple sounds like the old EDSi?

For me, if there's no grid, then it may as well be a single source, a complete "drum synthesiser" perhaps with multiple filters, LFOs etc

Myself, I like the grid for drums like Reason, Microtonic, Orion or FL Studio. Favourite is FL Studio where you set it for whatever you like: 16, 24, 32 , 64 or whatever (Atomic FYI that's what I use). But that seems to be not in consideration for now ...

I personally would want a device that did that tho.. With finished produced sound. So, 1 vote from me. Actually, if you can make a full fledged device with seq and insert slots, it's easy to work it down to a raw sound source. (perhaps as a different device) I guess this clearly draws the line between a sound module and a drum box.

I'm new to this forum and I'm new to Pulsar. I don't know all the correct terms so I'll say it like I know and hope that you take this seriously.

The snare should have resonance - to represent being hit from the center to the edge pitch - for tight/loose skin and subtle pitch changes when you hit the snare harder
Depth - for size of snare
Amount of snap to represent hit strength and different beaters
Should have attack hold decay with very short accurate response times

Hats should have ring to them and not just be tuned noise through a filter. The noise the do have should sparkle. Controlable snap from hard to none. When you go from open hat to closed hat open hat sound should cut off. Attack hold decay with very short accurate response times

Cymbals also should ring with noise contol to simulate rivets. Pitch to represent size. With snap from hard to none. Should have attack hold decay with very short accurate response times.

All should have EQ

If this drum were to be a drum oscillator module for the ModIII then I would like all the controls to have have a modulation input to allow control for those subtle changes, like you never hit the snare in the same place in a row and the sound is slightly different with more ring or hit slightly harder or stick held on the skin for slightly longer; and also for warped effects. Maybe some of the controls could be modulated anyway if it were a Device.

Anyway thats my thoughts I hope you could follow my meaning.

Alice

On 2004-06-05 22:42, Alice wrote:
I'm new to this forum and I'm new to Pulsar. I don't know all the correct terms so I'll say it like I know and hope that you take this seriously.

The snare should have resonance - to represent being hit from the center to the edge pitch - for tight/loose skin and subtle pitch changes when you hit the snare harder
Depth - for size of snare
Amount of snap to represent hit strength and different beaters
Should have attack hold decay with very short accurate response times

Hats should have ring to them and not just be tuned noise through a filter. The noise the do have should sparkle. Controlable snap from hard to none. When you go from open hat to closed hat open hat sound should cut off. Attack hold decay with very short accurate response times

Cymbals also should ring with noise contol to simulate rivets. Pitch to represent size. With snap from hard to none. Should have attack hold decay with very short accurate response times.

All should have EQ

If this drum were to be a drum oscillator module for the ModIII then I would like all the controls to have have a modulation input to allow control for those subtle changes, like you never hit the snare in the same place in a row and the sound is slightly different with more ring or hit slightly harder or stick held on the skin for slightly longer; and also for warped effects. Maybe some of the controls could be modulated anyway if it were a Device.

Anyway thats my thoughts I hope you could follow my meaning.

Alice

... that is only if one is trying to achieve an acoustic drum result. Something like my Plasma (and drumVOX) was always intended to make very electronic sounding percussion timbres, certainly nothing acoustic. To generate an acoustic sounding drum timbre, why not just use very good samples with multiple layers that can be triggered by velocity? Otherwise, some sort of physical model would have to be created. (or one could just record *gasp* real drums... hehehe)

- Stephen

http://www.track0.com/wavelength/

On 2004-06-05 22:42, Alice wrote:
(a lot of things).....

i don't know much about drums but Alice's suggestions sounded brilliant to me ( sounded like something i would want to try out at least - this is not a critic to other ppl devs..). there's a lot to do in comparison to the modular II/III drums (punch, warmth, playability, edition areas especially)... a simple 5/6 drum sound generators would be something i'd use everyday (there's the dsp issue but...). i use a lot of samples, but it still good to have something very editable/original (i don't have a great vsti sampler neither and STS doesn't allow "open hat closes when closed hat is triggered" for example, nor the filters are great for drums - you can do a lot but not what could be better). (my 2 cents though...) .

STS doesn't allow "open hat closes when closed hat is triggered" for example, nor the filters are great for drums

Not true at all... STS from STS3000 to STS5000 permit auto cancelling of sound for exactly that purpose. And, filter in STS5000 are simply unbeatable compared to any other sampler, be it vsti or hardware.

Sorry to say this this way, but, really, from you, it's surprising...

is it?? how do you this? explain, so i'll be surprised too

you also got me wrong, i didn't say the filters are bad, they are just not enough for me for drums and it still can be improved...

1st- load a drumkit, for example the one that is one the creamware best service CD

2nd, go in keygroup, and select the keygroup containing the open hihat sound, look in the global panel from the keygroup window

3rd, look at the muteGroup option

You assign a mute group to each sample that should mute mutually.

You can create many groups if you need to

That's it

well thanks for explaining, it's better than fighting : who said i knew it all.
i'll try that next time, but still interested by a "just load and play" thing...

Yep, then, your statement about filter is true... Everything can be improved...Always

On 2004-06-06 09:06, spacef wrote:
still interested by a "just load and play" thing...

Héhé, me too

Inspired by an old reaktor ensemble ( newscool ) that could produce a lot of different sounds, what I really dream about is :

4 or 5 oscillators ( yes !! ) for each choice of various waveforms.

For each oscillator ( in disorder )

AHD level envelopes - sample accurate and ranges related to percussive sounds thus short to have accurate controls moves ... also slopes " shaping "

Same kind of envelope for pitch + amount of it.

Pitch setting

Amount of FM and ringmod sent to the others oscillators via a matrix for example, I favor faders !

Level ( of a given oscillator ) to cook various mixes of the oscillators.

Drive, clipper, bitcrushing, EQs, filters ... etc are more than welcome !

Those are top of my head ... if more ideas pop up ...

I'am prepared to PAY for such a heavy duty device !!

I was thinking about the AHD pitch envelope ... what about given pitch targets for both hold and decay stages ( instead of positive unipolar ) so that you can have more combinations : pitch starts at pitch set for this oscillator goes to " hold " pitch then heads to " decay " final pitch.

I vote yes !!

Perhaps a good bpm-sync LFO-to-pitch with various waveforms could do this job just as well ?

Wow!

Certainly a LOT more response to this than I expected!!

Question - has anyone using the Modular tried doing these specific types of AHD envelopes (where there's different pitch 'targets' for the hold and decay, or whatever else you want) by using the MultiStage Envelope? This seems capable of it.
Of course, there is the problem with that envelope displaying the correct graphics per preset - "sometimes it do, sometimes it don't"

I've set up something using the AHDs, and other bits and pieces, that seem to give a nice punch to the kick, but the phase lock available to me in the Scope atoms isn't adding a whole lot to it (at least, not as I expected it would). I know Assaf has pioneered the sample accurate, phase locked kick drum, which I don't have here...must do a lot more research (or pay Assaf a license!).

All these requests are great - there's a lot to do to satisfy them, and I'd love to - but I'm starting to think it might be more than I can achieve at this time. Certainly, it's good to get these ideas out there and flowing, no matter who builds this.

Any design I do at this point will have to be much simpler...perhaps in the future we can expect the 'super duper drum computer' from Adern or someone new in the forthcoming SDK community.

cheers,

Well, let's point the next keen developer at this thread and see if they start taking steps backward too ...

'super duper drum computer'

Damn, u should copyright that name, its sooo nice! somebodey PLEASE develop a drum device that is worth that name!

Hi,
I'd like some features in creamware to expedite making a composition without loading up any outside applications. So I'm happy that you're discussing a drum machine.

Just a metronome would be great. The ability to do odd meters is important. Quick, no-brainer startup is important.

I often like to have a simple pattern going while I get started, then discard it to make the real drum parts later. A grid-type drum machine like the Roland's or Orion's is pretty good for that. I really like Zap's Little Drummer Boy and Stomper. I like to have panning for each drum.

If I could quickly outline the form of my tune with the device, that'd be great. But that involves sections of 5/4, 7/4, etc.
How about if the grid were extendable, step by step? Click on the end of the grid, and more steps appear.

It'd be a bonus to be able to plug midi patterns into it.

Sometimes I think it would be good to have a drum machine and recorder that are integrated with a CW mixer. Like one of the hardware mixer/recorders.

Hey JB,
I did read that you are mainly interested in making a drum sounds device, with the sequencer aspect tbd later on. I just happened to be already primed with thoughts about CW device wants. It couldn't be stopped.

Actually, the modular Groover drummers aren't that far from what I had in mind. I'm just starting to use them. Pretty good!


Pete answers Pete, answers Pete...

Me, i'd be happy if you did a virtual CR-78 and LM-1

Given that this wouldn't be very flexible for most users (and i have a real 78 and LM-1 samples aplenty) i have some other suggestions.

What i like about the CR-78 is the way you can combine any two patterns by just holding two buttons, with usually good results. As each sound has only one generator you don't get any doubled note phase/flamming like you do when doubling samples. So something like Spirit suggested with creating your own library of presets and using them in sequence and in combinations live or progammed would be great, with the ability to combine two (or preferably more) sequences without phasing/flamming going on. Also a separate sequencer (with its own preset list) for 'fills' with its own button to hit on-the-fly would be great.

i really think though that a drum machine with no sequencer is a bit pointless as i would rather use samples if i'm triggering from my sequencer. The point of a drum machine is that you create rhythms on them that you wouldn't necessarily create from a sequencer as you're forced to write in a different way. Of course, people who prefer to use their sequencer would be able to do that too, so i don't see a problem having both methods available.

Also things like a swing function as implimented on the LM-1 would be great (don't know if the maths for this is available - the LM-1 had one of the best swings ever available).

i also own an R-8M and this has a Humanize (sic) and Random function (similar to a suggestion by Spirit earlier). First the Humanize function has a 16-step display where you can adjust +/- from 0 (which is no humanise) and assign one of a number of parameters - decay, nuance (different timbres) and velocity. Random just has a range and can also act on the same parameters within the given Random range. i'm sure timing could also be added for some random fun. i suppose these functions are similar to a 'swing' function, but they act on 'live' sources (ie your sequencer or you playing live via a MIDI pad), so are different every time and it also means those users not using the in-built drum box sequencer would still be able to use the Human/Random functions.

Also, in Prophet Plus-style, it would be nice if you could drop wavs into slots to replace the drum machine's own sound source by a sample - handy for your favourite drum sounds (EDIT: i see scary808 already suggested this).


Phew. If anyone can make a drum machine with all that in consider it already bought.

Mr A

You know, as a drummer myself, and eventually dissapointed owner of many drum boxes, one of the first things I,
(quite naively but super inspired) set out to create the night I got my Scope system was a :

MEGGA SUPER COOL, ADJUSTABLE EVERYTHING, BLINDINGLY REALISTICALLY FAT at the same time as ULTRA OUT-THERE-SYNTHETIC, NEVER BEFORE ATTEMPTED, cross between a LINN 9000--DRUMTRAX-R8-STOMPER-ATTACK-SUPER-HUMAN-REALTIME-SAMPLING-FAIRLIGHT...BUT WITH A HUGER KICK...type thing only to climb into bed that night exhausted after having given up on all that by 8PM and just getting on my drums in the other room and playing all night...ahhhhh )))

Oh yeah, anyway, I'll be releasing this device soon...

sayton
De-Vice'
http://www.deviceplug-ins.com

good one simon

Warning: I've had a lot of thoughts on this matter. I've tried to edit it as to be intelligible, but it's late and I've had a long day. Please forgive any excessive rambling. ;P

I too have been sorely disappointed by many drum-synths/sequencers. I think Reason is probably the most well-organized drum programming platform ever. Unfortunately, everything that Reason can produce ultimately sounds like it was made in Reason which to my ears is not spectacular.

Those are my opinions and are purely a matter of taste, but it illustrates the major problem of most drum synths or tools in general. Because of the current cut-throat audio market most devices are usually fixed in some way, or are by definition a big bucket of parts which ends up excluding newbs or those who have to make music on strict deadlines, or otherwise want to be able to throw a range of drum tones together very quickly.

The Scope platform is not immune from this, but because it is in itself semi-modular, and because of the way the Modular platform sits on top of the parent OS, and because the DevKit is about to be more available to the common (wo)man it allows for a slightly more open and egalitarian option. One that I think would (if properly advertised to the outside world) could help the Scope Platform as a whole, and be in itself far more competitive against other similar products.

My thoughts on what I think would be the best drum synth ever would be to not make it one end all be all device, but to focus initially on more devices in the vein of KickMe, but instead of making them .dev's, make them individual modules. That way, at the very least, people can pick them up cheap as little $10-#30 (or whatever) additions to the Module library, or buy the grand bundles.

But it also would allow a drum PLATFORM to develop.

To continue evolving the idea, it could lead to the development of semi-modular shells (or kits if you will). So one could choose from different workflow designs, or perhaps even within each kit/shell design presetable options allowing for variations in appearance or signal flow.

In truth, it's not much more than extending the original Red Dwarf idea, but here it would be more specifically geared towards rhythmic construction and manipulation instead of the typical virtual-analog, and being able to slap your drum/sample tones and effects into a predictable signal chain so you can be making beats in under a minute or two.

Another way of thinking about it would be to imagine if our old friend Angus at fxpansion had built DR-008, not as it's own platform where he would have to woo other developers to develop modules for his creation, but instead built DR-008 to piggyback on top of Reaktor, opening up development both the heavier coding of VST programming, but also the quick and dirty visual programming of Reaktor, for which there is already an immense user base.

So, if we imagine that this theoretical playground got some footing, someone could potentially pick a workflow shell, load their drumsynths (or modular sample players, or something yet unimagined) into the various banks/channels, toss in a few Red-Dwarf and/or standard inserts, allowing people to use their ModII/III/Flexor filters, delays, timestrechers, whatever, over a single drum, the entire kit, whatever blows one's skirt up. And voila! You've got a custom kit which is usable.

This concept leaves room for any number of new sequencer/matrix/groove-sculpting designs to be implemented, while leaving current ones valid and useable where appropriate. Swap in whatever is most suitable for what you're doing.

The most important idea is that it stay Modular at every level, so that it can extend beyond drums, but new, flexible, ways of building sounds of any kind. No one is left unhappy because their prize feature isn't in the otherwise perfect device, and no developers have to feel like it's some gargantuan project which would require an unfathomable dedication of time and energy.

JB, Stephen Hummle, the Flexor folks, or anyone I've left unmentioned could make a drum synth module or 2, or a new algorythm for allowing a 2nd cymbal hit to alter the ring of the 1st hit (so it doesn't play like two separate hits or cut the first one off) or something along those lines. Maybe, one could load midi-controllable groove modules or arpeggiators in place of traditional matrix sequencers. Or one could run a programmed beat in a matrix through the groove editor to produce realtime variations.

Others could design new shells and interesting signal paths, or even just cool skins. Different shells would naturally excel at creating rhythms in different ways.

Hell if developers were able (or would even want) to disassemble drum synths they've already made into modular-friendly components, that might reinvigorate (or resurrect) their sales for a lot of hard work already done.

If there's one thing that this thread has demonstrated, it's that we've all got a lot of devices that do certain things well, and other things poorly, or at least short of our imagination or expectations.

In my opinion, it would make more sense to avoid the singular device(s) and instead have the drum concept mirror the over all Modular concept and be an open sub-platform, as it could grow at it's own pace, brach off in any number of directions, and would be immediately useful within the current Modular paradigms while the greater schemas and goal posts are still being developed. Kind of like a signature line of (semi)Modular, specifically for drums.

Did that make sense? Does it sound cool? Did I just make a big deal of something stupid and obvious? I don't care right now. I'm going to bed. I'll read yalls tomorrow once I've slept.

My $.87.

Sam

well
i think im going to work on an old idea i had...

Well, indeed dehuszar!

OK, so, you've now basically described exactly what I'm building! The RD Drum product will have the RD Drum Shell, with a number of modules, both synthetic and sample-based. At the moment I have finished the basic set of modules (kick, 2 snares, tim, cowbell, etc.), along with some special customizable modules for the user.
I didn't want to say too much about the project yet, but you have nailed the concept exactly!

The RD Drum shell has 12 RD insert slots, and 4 fixed slots (there's a reason for the fixed slots, but I may still add 4 more RD inserts to replace the fixed). Each slot can be populated with whatever you want, etc., just as dehuszar describes!

I'm almost ready to start some beta testing for it, but unfortunately I've had to be called away for personal issues this week, so there will be some delay in getting things finished to beta test level...but I have been having fun with it so far!

cheers,

Thats a great idea John!
I'm looking forward to hearing it.

What can I say... great minds think alike! I'm super stoked to see what this turns into. -Sam

I wonder what Red_Muze is thinking about ....

This thread certainly shows the huge level of interest in drum devices.

hmmm...Interested here too...

De-Vice'

Hi all,

I would also love to see a device of this nature, for bliss would be a 909ish kick with flexor patches to emulate kick me, then throw in some modular parts to make some really fat 808ish kicks.

Create some synthetic hats and 808 toms, then some how I guess with modular devices create as close as possible live sounding hats and good (not we we have now) snappy snares and claps.

Give this device multimple outs and key groups, mute groups and velocity layers and then we could have a cool all pulsar drum device, of course you could leave slots open for inserts directly for comps, verbs, delays filters etc etc, we could then have a very cool and desirable drum module for the scope platform.


Basically just summing up whats been said

Cheers!

Don't forget - with my RD Module series, you have a special Modular Window Template that can load into RD Slots...so, if you want to have some customised thing as a Modular, you can create it (using one of these special "templates") and load it into the RD Drum easily for further processing, etc.

Of course there will be regular Insert Effects slots, etc.

cheers,

I'am a little late so ... good suggestion Spirit about the LFO to pitch.

Otherwise it's great to see that the major players are interested and ... all solutions are welcome hoping you won't walk on each other feet !

I still think a super duper drum computer is makeable or different variations to offer a wide spectrum of electronic sounds.

Some pics of the reaktor's newscool ensemble I mentioned :



It's the drum core only, there's a filter / drive section under + a tempo delay section.
T/2 and T/4 are tempo divisors, the orange light indicates progression, the knobs under the sequencer enable the selection of various combinations of " sine decays " triggering.



The four " sine decays " macros structure



A " sine decay " macro ... if you need some light on this but most can be guessed I think.

So this is what I had in mind but boosted with more ( accurate ) controls and more options.

This little ensemble can produce a lot of various percs so imagine if you start to add more features !!!

Hi all,

Well, thanks for all the interest!

The Reaktor example is interesting (and looking at it reminds me how much I didn't like working with that program!), but as mentioned, the plan now is not to have a 'fixed' device such as the "newscool ensemble" decimator posted.

I'm going to be making some changes in my plans, as you will see, but not to worry! There will be several tools to use for drum and rhythm creation, and a greater variety of modules than first thought.

ooh....eentereschting

The Chef is cooking ...
Makes me hungry

Hi All,

Just a quick update here - without having read much of the other postings here, I proceeded ahead with a design incorporating delays for rhythmic looping, etc., and thought this would be a nice addition...then I read postings from 2001 about the 4Dex ensemble and also the looper thread here, well...so, maybe it's not such a great 'new' thing, but it <em>is</em> fun to play with. The RD Drum shell I'm developing currently has 12 channels that can handle sample loops like this, with MIDI Syncable repeats, etc., although I haven't tried all 12 at once yet to see if things stay locked. However, I was also trying something else using the Pattern Delay from CW in each channel (as insert FX), and, although they don't have an external clock provision, I could get a lot of the same things by using those in each channel, without having to include 12 built-in delays. So, I'm still fooling around with the final RD Drum Shell design.

The other thing I'm coming to realise is, there's a ton to be done in getting the more sophisticated drum modules designed (thanks to at0m|c for posting those links to the SOS and McGill sites in the 909 Classic discussion). Fortunately, the RD design will allow for continued development and expansion of the capabilities of these types of things. In fact, you can expect to see a variety of 'RD compatible' modules appear in the future!

So, what to tell you? There's no 'super duper looper' box yet, nor anything you can used to sequence, other than the patterns derived from infinite delay lines (and these do have a problem, in that they use your host computer's RAM). Some refinements still to be done, but I'm leaning towards making it all an 'enhancement package' to my RD series II modules, instead of a separate product, since for several of the modules, you will need access to the RD envelopes, filters, etc. The first release may not be all that thorough or complete, but the good news is, the RD system approach will provide for expansion and updates that should eventually satisfy many of the requests listed in this thread.

cheers,

Looking forward your future drums shell(s).

For exploring / messing ( drums ) loops I'am currently demoing Devine Machine : http://www.devine-machine.com/home.html

Just pouring ideas in ...

Hi decimator,

Thanks for the DM link - that's a very impressive piece of software! Far more than I can achieve with ScopeDP...

Hey, looks very good!

I think i'm gonna demo this one too

Oh, don't worry john, I'am ( relatively ) aware it's too much or impossible to implement : just throwing wild ideas that may lead to other makeable ideas !

Yes marcuspocus, a fine app !

What really does it for me is : waveform in Y-axis and loops on X-axis ( really fell in love !!! )

holy sh*t, THAT took some time to get it going
Trying out of the box, literature free - what's going on there ???

Those dudes rule ! Once the idea enters your mind - it's incredible.

someone wrote a program with an original interface
an interface to support something called workflow (or creativity...)

not cute, no gimmicks, just plain action

tnx a lot for the link, decimator - you just made them sell another copy
[which arrived only 4 hours after the CC had been charged - and it's Sunday evening here... great service]

cheers, Tom

Damn, I should ask for some commission for every copy sold !

Astroman, if you have some suggestions for the devs : don't hesitate since they are asking for it and I know they are working on the version 2.

indeed, they mentioned something like rewriting from scratch for Mac compatibility.
But they already had planned the most obvious thing missing: midi output of the 'slices', (you know) that table below the waveform where you can assign slices to an instrument - ingenious and SO simple.

It would also solve the request from the thread Audio trigger/peak to midi velocity converter

And of course the slices will be midi-triggerable in the next version.

My Yamaha DX200 calls itself 'Loop-Factory' on startup - NO WAY ! that title belongs to Devine Machine.
Do people buy such sh*t like 'Acid Loops' ?
With DM you can produce a gigabyte per day of quality stuff from any arbitrary 10 minutes recording - whatever it contains

cheers, Tom

from DevineMachine back to the topic...

it was an a very good idea from Decimator to mention it in this context - we're pretty used to certain styles of operating a device and somehow forget that it may not be the only way.
Examples like this keep our mind open and bring back a fresh view again.

I'm tempted to say the days of the traditional beat-box are over - with an interface like DM's available.
As easy in realtime handling as the old Roland stuff, but with 2 additonal dimensions.

cheers, Tom

Ah, then I don't have to finish work on the RD Drum!?!

well, John, I wouldn't exactly expect the next 808/909 clone from you

You certainly noticed the user interface of DM and that Scope DP obviously lacks that level of control.
I assume this from your comment above and that you (?) once mentioned a Java-like scripting language inside DP for sequencer control
I don't want to be mistaken that DM is kind of a holy grail for drum boxes, but at least their approach to control is new and very effective.

My inner eye already sees NI and the other 'big' guys plagiating it, but that's another story...

Imho the interface to sound is crucial, since we do have very good synth engines, but no smooth access. Aside from it's frequent appearance in live-setups that's the key of the Virus success.

Unfortunately those hardware-hands-on units are pretty expensive in low quantities.
On the other hand a drumbox is much simpler than a keyboard...

cheers, Tom

Isn't there any way to implement 2 16-step modules in a way that when the first module finishes playing, the second one starts, and build a device that could do that?
That way, you'd have a 32-steps pattern.

Actually, I was thinking of a device with a certain number of empty slots, like inserts. This device would be a marriage between micromixer and a step sequencer.
The device would allow you to load any synth/sample player in those slots, and by setting the midi channel, let you fire the synths from the pattern.
Another thing that I was thinking of was a function like the micromixer had: the fact of letting you create as many channels/tracks as you need, except for the fact that these channels would only handle MIDI.
That way, the device wouldn’t be so DSP intensive, and could let you choose whatever sound source you want, depending on your DSP resources.
After having edited a couple of patterns, you could go to song mode and play the patterns in whatever order you want, besides the fact that by loading any preset you’d made, the device would simply recall all the instruments you had chosen for preset.
Of course, there should be a window to edit the patterns: each channel should have it’s own pattern window, but only visible if desired, by clicking a button.

Another thing, tough I'm not sure if it's possible: a pattern sequencer for Mod III with the regular size, but with a button that, after being clicked, could let you open a big window to let you edit the pattern more comfortably.

Please, have in mind that I’m not a developer, so I don’t know if any of the things that I described above are possible.
I know that the topic was about a drum box, but I think these ideas could find a way to be implemented in such way.


Martín

I actually wish someone would make a really good clone of the 808 and 909. I may end up buying Hui Drums by D-Mute (although I think it might not be any good since I've mentioned it in this room before and noone here seems to use it, which makes me suspicious of it). Hey John, go for it! I'd buy it.

Medusua13: I believe a sequencer patch which does exactly that has been made for Flexor owners.

On 2004-08-08 16:38, skatehard wrote:
...I may end up buying Hui Drums by D-Mute (although I think it might not be any good since I've mentioned it in this room before and noone here seems to use it, which makes me suspicious of it)...

if you browse some other sections of this forum and read what people don't buy, then this is no indication about quality at all.

I wrote above that I wouldn't expect a 808/909 by John, but that's because I consider him more innovative.

And while normally a precise clone of the famous Roland boxes would have a fair business chance, this is definetely not the case on this platform...

cheers, Tom

He did a Prophet 5 repro why not a 808, 909 repro? The entire Scope platform is all about repro's. The majority of the stuff available is copies of late 70's early 80's synths.

well, isn't John THE expert for Sequential Circuit stuff

you're absolutely right, those 'classics' are the big sellers - they do have a name.
And certainly the driving force behind it is more like '... spares me >1k bucks...' than 'I like it's sound...'

But all his other stuff extends his 'roots' pretty much, while building on a great amount of experience.
to name a few: the Ambient synth, RedDwarf, a 'modular for non modularers', Solaris as a big melting pot of synth history, containing all and every aspect of soundgeneration on a few pages.

There has even been a very innovative approach with the PythonPro synth, that John supported.
No big name, no copy of, some thinking required because it wasn't the osc-filter-adsr way, but capable of sounds that would be difficult to achieve elseway. Obviously no big success...

cheers, Tom

Hi All,

My Web site has a version of the RD Drum 'shell' (not the most current, but you will get the idea). Below that you will find 3 links to additional screen shots, which should help explain the RD Drum a bit more.

There's a shot of the 15 currently working RD Drum modules, as well as a view of the RD Drum surface with each channel's display switched to show the Delay parameters.

As you can see, there is the standard assortment of drum sounds, plus an enhanced Wav Osc+Amp (with Amp Envelope and Pitch Mod slots), and two Custom drum modules, which are completely user-defined (by inserting any RD series II compatible module).
The Modular Gate II template (from the RD series II set) can also be used, allowing for use of Modular modules to create a third 'custom' object.

Each Delay can be sync'ed to MIDI, and each channel has 3 FX inserts and 1 slot for Pan modulation (which also can be sync'ed to MIDI clock).

Did I also mention there will be additional modules from other 3rd parties?

All coming soon...
cheers,
_________________
john bowen
zarg music

Hi again,

Well..........it seems things are taking a bit longer than I had planned. There are some significant changes going on, and from those some new problems. Please be patient, and I'll keep you posted.
(BTW, the screen shots on the Website are no longer current.)

I went to have a look at RD Drums screenshot, and

I want it!!!

That's the next thing coming in my weapons collection

Do i see correctly that the thing have facilities to make track loops?

[edit]
re-read the entire thread, and i see that the loop is based on delays line... Is it possible to loop a bar, or couple of bar is midi info instead? Would use less ram/dsp i think, and would allow to insert effects after that, delay being one of them. Since there is a metronome there, i could listen to metronome on a separate output and perform live beat construction using midi loop like this.
[/edit]

Anyway, the thing looks very much impressive.

I need it!

Go on John!

Hmmmm, loop MIDI data? It's not real obvious how one would do that with the current Scope DP library - without constructing some special use modules.

Probably have to check with Assaf if he's able to do this in Flexor; otherwise, I don't see a way at the moment...

Hi Everyone!

Latest update on the RD Drum - this is in final testing stage, and should be released in a few days. Now to set the record straight, as I've heard/read a number of points raised....

I like to hopefully always present something that is of a 'pro' level...at least, musically useful in some way...but as I have mentioned, drum boxes are not my forte, and emulations of 808s, 909, etc., etc., have not been investigated at this time. What I wanted to do, after putting out the initial questions, was a relatively simple design based on my Red Dwarf approach. To help get all this done quickly, I looked into my old Creamware files, and found an early 'open' pre-version of the EDS14i, which I've used as source sounds, modifying them as modules for the initial RD Drum. In addition, there's some Custom 'module shells' which will allow any RD series II owner to create their own version of basic drum modules. (As an extra, I will offer to convert any Custom shell into a permanent Drum Module, if desired.)

So, not having the time to investigate new sound modules at this time means that most Creamware users will be familiar with the type of sound available from the RD Drum...however, the thing to keep in mind is that there will be other modules developed over time, not just from me but several others. (I'd like to reveal more, but I think one developer would probably Kick Me if I did )

The main focus was to put together a useful 'shell' with which I could develop this platform more, as it is 'new territory' for me. At the end of August, I was satisfied with what I had as a playback module, but Mr. Hummel (who was doing some beta testing for me) remarked more than once how fun it would be to have a basic sequencer added to it. Well...this was more than I had planned, but I did have the Solaris sequencer bits around, so I decided to see what I could do to incorporate it. After an additional month or so of finally figuring out some problems, etc., I am able to say it's working, and will release the ReD Drum (with a logo design by Hummel) with an integrated sequencer. It's not perfect (and it's not 32 steps, as several have requested), but it is a bit of fun to play with...certainly not comparable to most of the software drum things going on out there, as has been mentioned - but still fun!

Most of the work went into putting the shell together, and then adding the sequencer. I hope to put in a proper amount of research in the future to develop other sound modules, but in the mean time, perhaps some of the new free SDK'ers will want to experiment making their own. If you are one of these, please contact me for details on how to make the proper connections, etc., for RD compatibility.

Check my Website for updated pictures and release date.

cheers,

Look very very cool with step seq!!!

Yeah! This is gonna be very usefull for live!

TOP!

Great work John! Can't wait to get it

RedDrum looks great !

Is it possible to but after 4 clocks a horizonatele line.

for example:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 101112 13141516
x x x x | x x x x | x x x x | x x x x
--------+---------+---------+--------
x x x x | x x x x | x x x x | x x x x

Hey, good idea!
Updated screen shot of seq page with vertical bars every 4 Gate buttons on my site...

thanks for the suggestion!

(This is the same post as in the Announcements section)

OK! I'd like to announce (officially now) the new RD Drum!

As mentioned before, it uses my RD concept where each channel slot is 'empty' until the user loads a drum module, so each of the 8 channel slots are totally up to the user.

There's also a 16 step sequencer for each channel, and each sequence row can have its own step length and clock division, so you can get some pretty interesting polyrhythmic things going.
There's no Demo, as it is atypical to have this type of flexible system as a stand-alone Demo, but perhaps if needed I can make a small, dedicated Demo version (no RD Slots) for potential users to get an idea.

In the meantime, I will have to ask any of the beta testers to post some comments if they are so inclined.

Price is 80 EUR, with a bundle of the RD Drum and the RD series II modules for 115 EUR. (The RD Drum comes with 32 of its own modules; the series II just adds to the flexibility of building your own custom drum elements, or more control in the Pan Mod section, etc.)

Fully loaded, the RD Drum seems to need about 4 DSPs' worth of space, so Luna or Pulsar I owners be advised, your system will not be enough to run things to their fullest extent. More available on my Web site (but no audio demos yet, sorry).

Thanks for all the input I've received from the group!

peace,