## Copy Protection ?

Scope and XITE Development

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=920

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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:09 am
by kimgr
Is it just me, or is there no way to copyprotect your designs in the standard /DP package ?
What to do ?

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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:19 am
by John Cooper
By "copy protection", do you mean locing a device to a particular hardware serial number? If so, the answer is no - not without paying CW. that's what the creamware shop safekey system is for.
If you just mean limiting another Scope/DP user's ability to open your device and see how it's built, that's what the "Protect" feature is for (on the context menu when right-clicking on the device module in the project window).
-john

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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:24 am
by huicholity
hehe...very "hype" topic...
The common use is to put a license window with the name of the customer...but it's not copyprotected !
best regards,

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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2001 11:50 am
by Neutron
I'm thinking of putting the persons name adress, credit card number, and as much other information as possible on a device window and to make sure they are at that address, mailing the unpacking key for the compressed file via snail mail. it will be up to the owner of the device to make sure it does not get warezed with their name on it.
but they can still copy it from one card/computer to another.
it is a start anyways.

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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2001 11:59 am
by John Cooper
Well, that's what we did with Zorba and Synchrome. Both were fraudulently purchased using stolen credit cards, then released to the public, and are widely traded in warez forums
The only ingredient we lacked (which I agree seems to be the only way to be safe) was snail-mail confirmation. I tend to think that the snail-mail component will drive customers away...
-john

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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:14 pm
by spacef
anything is so useless that you can put the name alone. not even on the surface, which is pretty ugly and useless thye same. i prefer a discrete about window.
i wouldn't like to find my credit card on a device. morover, you usually don't get customer credit card.at the end, if your protection is not linked to the hardware, the sn,ail mail thing is another useless burden of the user, but more on the developper. good luck

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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:33 am
by Micha
Interesting post. So CW charges not to small for your participation and wants to have more if you work for the platform. If you work and succeed you can choose to pay or stand in the rain. Aha! And they think that this is a good strategy? I am not so sure that Scope/Pulsar still is great in a few years under these circumstances.
Happy pulsaring, this time with bad feelings!
Micha

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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 6:37 am
by Neutron
hmm
Isn't there a way to prevent stolen credit cardss being used? how about paypal, they used a code you had to enter from the credit card stetement(when first putting your card on that account). does anyone know if paypal is hit by fraud? (and paypal doesnt work fully outside of north america..d'oh)
I agree putting the CC number on the device popup might be a bit much. the name and address should be enough (it would be on a mini popup anyways) I may have to rethink the confirmation though it may be a bit annoying using snail mail.
I would like to do something untill there is a better way, since the creamware protection does not even work anymore.
I have thought of a few possible kludgy ways to make windows programs give and take information from a device, but of course. then theres mac.

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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:38 am
by John Cooper
i switched to paypal for planetz products for awhile, and sales dropped to absolute zero... i got complaints from users who couldn't figure out how to use it. i think the barrier of forcing the purchaser to create an account, authorize their credit cards, etc, etc is too much for must casual purchasers.
but yes you are right, that this very step (they make two tiny charges to you card, and you verify the amounts on your statement), does verify the card isn't fraudulent. it's just so clumsy and time consuming that it stops people from buying.
i gave up on paypal and switched back to kagi...
-john

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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 11:07 am
by Neutron
These people who used a fraudulent card are the main problem I guess. there might be a few non intrusive security measures to help lessen the likelyhood(but obviously not prevent) of it happening.
get them to fill out a form on a web site like this one that can log their IP. they just have to put their email adress. then send them an email which has the link to the purchase page.
This is because it is easier to send fake email out using a unprotected smtp server, but a bit harder to recieve it from the password protected POP server.
and you can of course ban spamservers like hotmail.
so all the buyer has to do is fill out the email adress (phone number that can be looked up in a phone book for verification?)
and get a link by email.
what the seller gets is the IP adress and the email adress used. a reference number could be generated and linked to the IP and email it would be used in the link so the ASP (or whatever) can keep everything together. and then send tham off to KAGI(all invisibly to the user)
it might help to discourage giving out devices, but im sure it is full of holes, and
of course i havent a clue how to do it

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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 12:41 pm
by spacef
there also an amount of trust you can put into your users. myself, it's possible that i've been warezed (i have no idea) but i think the people who register spacef are really cool yeah, to accept the membership form you must be a cool dude).
the fact that you reserve some devices, and future ones to "e-mail" send is a way to discourage the use of stolen card. because even with a stolen card, the stealer won't get much, or is forced to give a long term e-mail adress. of course, there are always possibilities of fraud, but trust is the best non creamware protection (what can you do else on the internet?)
actually, the real burden on developpers is that you can only register ppl in DP, not necessarily to include the names, but to save the device.
just my 2 cents, worth what it's worth (but "long" experience now)

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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:30 pm
by spacef
but you can't really make a living out of scope dev this way
myself, i find the shop ok but it's an investment to enter (acrobat "writer" being the most expensive to acquire). after, for the percentage, it may be too much if you are several. (or too much alone, depends).
if you are able to manage a key yourself, then it becomes easy to couple download to other longer term or snail mail distribution of modules.
myself, i didn't at all adopt the system for tracing orders, but it may give ideas to others.
best

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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 6:59 pm
by PabloFasan
This message was previously sent to John Cooper, I publish it again due I think it could be useful for to the matter that you are discussing.
I'm not Scope developer, but yes composer and arranger and I have suffered piracy many times as all of you.
-----------------------------------
Dear developers:
Are you all crazy?, to make public the personal data of a client, that supose that is making a "secure" transaction, is a CRIME.
You forget that in this way you are exposing people to a lot of other damages of all type.
Do you think that people work alone and enclosed in their rooms with nobody arround?
Do you ignore that the studios have operators that are not the owners of the gear and not necessary friends of them?
It doesen´t matter how do you hate pirats , this is not the way to proceed.
John Cooper, you must be a little more sincere and speak MORE "in public" about how REAL secure is the CW´s "bullet proof" copy protection.
To think as an ideal, that the solution is to link a software license to a piece of hardware is to IGNORE one of the things that people HATE more of CreamWare.
Cheers
Pablo Fasan
pfasan@sinectis.com.ar

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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:24 pm
by John Cooper

> On 2001-06-20 19:59, PabloFasan wrote:
> Are you all crazy?, to make public the personal data of a client, that supose that is making a "secure" transaction, is a CRIME.

while i agree that i wouldn't condone putting a person's credit card number on their device, i don't consider it a crime to label a piece of software which is intended solely for the personal use of the purchaser, with the purchaser's name.

> John Cooper, you must be a little more sincere and speak MORE "in public" about how REAL secure is the CW´s "bullet proof" copy protection.

huh? i never stated that CW's protection was bullet proof, nor was i recommeding it. i only answered kimgr's original question "is there no way to protect devices in scope/dp" (which is implicitly asking how to use the much advertised dsp hardware locking system). the answer is that the only way to lock a pulsar software to the pulsar hardware is to pay creamware for their safekey protection. iow, hardware protection is not provided for free in scope/dp.
all the other protection implementations we've been discussing are based on trust and personal ethics. planet z devices are sold on this basis. orbitone devices are sold using safekey. planet z devices are all widely distributed via warez sites, which is frustrating. orbitone devices were recently warez by paradox in the big cw-crack-fiasco, but they're the old versions. the new versions of the orbitone stuff aren't yet cracked, thankfully.
if you want to start yet another big discussion on the ethics of software piracy, etc, please take it to the "general discussion" forum. (however, i won't participate in it - please see the archives here and on pulsar-scope for my views).
cheers,
-john

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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:24 pm
by kimgr
Hi guys, and thanks for all your replies.
I didn't even know that there was Creamware warez out there !!!??? (I don't use ANY cracked software myself.)
Can anyone tell me about the terms for publishing on the creamware shop ?
How much do they charge for the protection and do they take a percentage of the sales or what ?

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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2001 7:44 am
by John Cooper

> On 2001-06-20 23:24, kimgr wrote:
> Hi guys, and thanks for all your replies.
> I didn't even know that there was Creamware warez out there !!!??? (I don't use ANY cracked software myself.)

apparently paradox figured out a way to bypass parts of the safekey system. it's not a full crack tho - the sts for example is only partially working. creamware has said that they'll plug these leaks for 3.0.

> Can anyone tell me about the terms for publishing on the creamware shop ?
> How much do they charge for the protection and do they take a percentage of the sales or what ?

you'll need to contact nikolai at creamware for details, because i think they're about to change. the current system is a one-time 100euro fee per device, and 25% of all sales.
-john

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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2001 2:06 pm
by kimgr

> you'll need to contact nikolai at creamware for details, because i think they're about to change. the current system is a one-time 100euro fee per device, and 25% of all sales.
> -john

25% for them or for me ???
It might seem like a naive question, but I'm more than used to be "f**ked" by the music-industri...

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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2001 2:41 pm
by John Cooper

> On 2001-06-21 15:06, kimgr wrote:
> 25% for them or for me ???

haha!! great question
you pay them the 100euro fee.
and then you get 75% of the sales, they get 25%. if it was the other way around, i think you'd call it racketeering! even at 25% i think it's too much...
-john

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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2001 9:30 pm
by PabloFasan
Dear John:
I evident that you consider that the users have not wright to be part in this talk.
Well here's a SECURE solution to your problems.
Why all of you don't sell your software receiving the payment in CASH????, many companies like Western Union deliver money payments arround the world without any risk and for a very fewer percentages than CreamWare.
Once you receive the money you deliver the software.
I use this system for purchase things that cost much more than a plugin software license and there's NO problem (NEVER).All the procedure takes two or three days.
Or the real thing is that you need to have our personal data?
For what purpose?

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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2001 9:54 pm
by John Cooper

> On 2001-06-21 22:30, PabloFasan wrote:
> I evident that you consider that the users have not wright to be part in this talk.

On the contrary!! Why do you think I'm spending so much effort to create, update, and improve these forums. Of course I want everyone to be a part of the discussions.
I guess you're reacting to me saying that if you wanted to re-open the topic of piracy and ethics, then please move it over to the general forum where that kind of topic is more appropriate - it's kind of OT here.

> Why all of you don't sell your software receiving the payment in CASH????

perhaps this is not a bad idea, tho my impression is that most users would be uncomfortable with such a system and wouldn't ever purchase...

> many companies like Western Union deliver money payments arround the world without any risk and for a very fewer percentages than CreamWare.

I looked into western union about 6 months ago for transferring money to europe, and the fees were outrageously high for international funds transfer (e.g. transferring US$300 to europe, the fee was over $100).
-john

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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2001 10:38 pm
by spacef
pablo you should slow down that thing that may be is making you too much paranoid

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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 1:43 am
by Micha
my opinion: Protection should be included in DP and monthly paycheck - 10% up to 1000$. All devices via CW-Shop available for us Pulsarians. If this is not enough CW could take the missing money out of the publicity-pot, because each device is an ad that says: more, better, greater.
Or not, CW?
Fair is fair and unfair is not fair
Good night!
The rest of us do
Happy pulsaring
Micha
- no, better: up to 100$ 0%, to 500% 5% to encourage newbies.

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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 11:27 am
by PabloFasan
My apologies to all that have feel offended for the rude style I have used in my last post.
Only who has sufferd credit card frauds can understand how impotent and frustraiting is the situation.
I have suffered three of them, the last for a sum of U$s6000-
And worst of all is to end founding ALL my personal data, includded my credit card #, in a Warez list.
I have some wrights to feel paranoid when I read propositions of to includde the credit card # of the users in the surface of a plugin.
Sorry again for the lack of a more polite style.

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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:10 pm
by Neutron
I think Spacef's "membership" deal is kind of a good way to build trust without alienating people..it is a very hard balance between fighting the pirates and letting your customers get your product without hassle(or violating their privacy.)
I still dont know what to do.. I think PXR5 synth will just have to be a free one
DeFex