## I want to make synths, do you?

Scope and XITE Development

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=8587

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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:44 am
by Andreas-Lagoona
Is there anyone out there who would be interested in co-operation projects in making real SFP synth devices with me? I can make the synth (that can be done from modular 2 and 3, right?), the presets and the graphics, but I don't have the programs needed to put it all together into a device...
Or, perhaps I can ask, is there any developer group (commercial or non-commercial doesn't really matter) who need a synth programmer or graphics artist? Send me an e-mail, or write here at the forum if you are interested... =)
You can hear my first Modular 2 patch here: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic ... f=15&2 (small leadsynth, made for myself, and released here just for fun). Expect more examples soon...
You can see (some of) my graphics at http://faron.deviantart.com/ and on the website of my band: http://www.lagoonamusic.com/

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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 11:57 pm
by Chill69
I just posted something along these lines in the device wishlist forum. To save everyone a trip over there, here's the same message (sorry about cross posts!) :
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This is more of a question than a wish, as I don't know what all is involved with creating a new device from scratch with the DP. From what I've read in the DP forum, the assembly is similar to the Modular. I don't know how the graphics are assigned to the controllers, or how the controllers are assigned to the particular "modules", so please bear with me and help me learn.
I was wondering if it would be possible for someone with the DP package (which is far beyond the cost of most Scope users unfortunately, I wish Creamware would consider perhaps releasing a "Lite" version with less atoms and place it somewhere between the modular series and the full DP suite.. but back to the topic) to perhaps consider turning a few of the prize winning modulars (vers. 1,2, or 3) from the Planet Z Contest or other mutually acceptable sources into simple stand alone synths for those without the modular - using stock library graphics, all fancys aside. The idea would be to allow non modular users (mostly the Luna series boards as the 6 DSP cards include some form of it) to experience exactly how powerful the Modular software is, and perhaps influence them to pick up a copy.
I know it's difficult due to DSP issues, but even at 1-2 voices, I wouldn't trade my Modular software for anything - it's the single best investment I made for my Luna. As an added bonus, it'll provide 1-2 more "Freebie" synths out there to people that are looking for creative sounds with no budget.
The most difficult thing I can see about this idea is that it puts a large cost in the form of time (which in many situations is more valuable than money) on the developer recreating the modular to SFP synth. I wish I had the money for the DP, as I'd love to do it , but I don't. Is there an easier solution to this, or would this be a "if wishes were fishes..." dream?
Natural follow up questions -
1) Developers / Opinions?
2) Non Modular User / Opinions?
3) Which 2-3 Modulars would be the best for this solution if viable?
4) Is there anything non DP owners could do to help Developers to reduce the cost of time?
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Developers, what are your thoughts on something like this?

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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 4:50 pm
by spacef
I don't think you can compare doing a device and doing a modular patch.
Certainly, DP is a kind of modular, but just the way SFP is.
You may need several modules to make the equivalent of one module of a modular.
It is indeed very time-consuming, but also nerve consuming if you have to fight a bug or do not know how to do this or that but want to achieve your goal... what a joy when you find the solution, but what a stress.
Then you have to make the surface, which brings its lot of problems too.
Then you have to make the preset list(s) which brings its lot of problems too.
Then you have to pack the device to make it usable under SFP, which brings it lot of problems too.
Then you have to face the user opinions, and that's a pretty difficult part too , may be the most difficult...
All this is to say that it is truely work.
Making a device has not much to do to do with making a modular patch in terms of work. May be it is closer to Reaktor. Recently, i began to go deeper into modular 3 : it's sooooo easy and fast to make whatever patch . Making a granular synth with crazy modulator took me 10 minutes. Under DP that could have been between 10 and 100 hours ?
I speak for myself, I do not know how other are doing, but i think all developpers go through the same problems and give quite an important amount of work and enthusiasm when they make their devices....
So if someone accepts to make your modular as SFP devices, the price (if any), would be a balance between its complexity, time to make it, graphic requirements, etc, etc... (graphics is the only help a non DP user can bring to a developper).
You may still find developpers who would be willing to make it for free for fun and training, but do not doubt that it is quite an important amount of work and time. It can be enjoyable too, it depends on your devices (myself i'm on such a commercial private development for the moment, and I enjoy it because i am pretty free on this project and have good relationship with the person who ordered it). Also, every developper has its "know-how", and what is easy for one may be difficult for another and vice versa.
Well, this post is a bit negative, but that wasn't the intention. The intention is just to try to show how different it can be between making a modular patch and a device and the work it involves...
May be after this post some other developper will be willing to make your modulars just for the fun of it, this is still very possible...

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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:24 pm
by Andreas-Lagoona
Thanks for the reply. =)
Yes, I am well aware of the massive amount of work involved in DP projects. However, I had not really understood the differences when I wrote the first post in this thread. It has been a month since then, and during that time I have created four new (full-featured and preset-packed) modular patches. All with different synthesis... I have found out that I can just as well work with modular, since that will still give me all the fun parts of the creation process!
My original idea was to do commercial projects, since I have both the interest and the spirit to do some serious work. After four years of music production using hardware analog synths, I do believe that I would fairly soon get the knowledge too. But for now, I'll stick to the modular 2. What happens next? Who knows, we'll see about that. Thanks anyway for the good advices!

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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:29 pm
by spacef
Yes , i just added a part in my post about using modulars : i do it myself, it's so fast and fun. It is immediately useable and powerful too (only modular III has granular synthesis for the moment) whereas DP is a true development plateform, where you have to be "serious".

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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:40 pm
by spacef

> But for now, I'll stick to the modular 2. What happens next? Who knows, we'll see about that. ...

Next is modular III it has granular synthesis (i made really superb sounds with it) and a multi filter that is of the same kind of the ones of the STS 5000.... (you know, a scrolling menu with all the filters (24?) inlcuding the phaser filters (i love those).... oh yeah, it also includes the wavetables oscillators from vectron and Lightwave.
For the rest it is pretty similar to Modular II, but the III gives you saving options that re really useful.
So, Modular III is what should happen to you next

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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:27 am
by at0m
Hi,
Thanks for the explanation spacef I largely agree, yet have some comments:
There's a lot more that non-DP'ers can do to help DP'ers.
Give idea's and inspiration. Discuss about features and possibilities. Then once the device is in alfa or beta stage, test the device, with it's temporary GUI and excess pop-up panels. The testing will be best if done by different users in different environments: from users with different cards setup, on pc or mac, with different OS'es, samplerates etc etc. Use it for all what it's intended and not intended to do. Make presets which go with the device upon release. ...
I totally agree making devices is quite a complicated happening. Yet we can make DP more efficient for the people developping. Feedback is essential. Developpers for their devices, as musicians for their music, love it.
Andreas, if you're deep into modular, didn't you ever look at a device and think "man, wouldn't this ... [sensored;] be a great feature on it?" That means it's time to write an email to the maker
During the years I've cooperated with different developpers on different levels. It rewards for both. You get the technology before anyone else and maybe give hints to new features. He gets feedback on the unfinished device etc.
As spacef says, things that are common ground for one DP'er might be magic to the next DP'er. Same goes -to a certain degree- for users and DP'ers. SFP is such a flexible system, we probably all use it different. Recently I was happy when I saw three (yes, 3!) DP'ers discussing ways to demo their gear. There's a DP'ers forum here, and one on Creamware's site. How long has it been since DP'ers have exchanged idea's? You must be kidding me!
So Andreas, as a suggestion for you and people who feel alike: try cooperating in some way with DP'ers.

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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:37 am
by at0m
Oh yes, and modular3 of course. And the upcoming Adern stuff. Your range of options will increase amazingly.

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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:19 am
by Andreas-Lagoona
Good point, at0mic. I would gladly assist developers like that. Since I am one of those persons who actually enjoy to create preset sounds, and since I am a man with many ideas, it could work.
Yes, I will upgrade to mod3 as soon as afford it. It will probably take two months, but I'll use that time to learn the basics from mod2... After all, mod2 is a still very powerful system!

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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:28 pm
by Andreas-Lagoona
It's not official: I am insane. Despite the fact that I couldn't really afford it, I just bought Modular III. I spent hours and more hours, reading about the new modules. When I had read it all, i just had to get it. Now, when the house owner kicks me out for not paying the rent, atleast I will own an amazing modular synth...
Thanks again for the advices!