## STM 2448

Device/Module Wishlist

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=17322

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Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:54 am
by garygiles
I have 1 very simple and basic request, to be able to route an input channel on the STM 2448 to any or all output or mix buses. This should be very simple to do I would have thought and very basic. Because I am not able to do this makes the STM 2448 useless for me and my projects. Has anyone come up with a simple solution to this problem?
_________________
CueOne
Studio 19
Brockley Cross Business Centre
96 Endwell Road
London SE4 2PD
Tel: 020 7277 9933
Mob: 0778 5564 281
Email: gary@cueone.co.uk
Web: http://www.cueone.co.uk

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Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:26 am
by alfonso
I'm trying to understand what's your problem...I fear I don't, but anyway..
In Scope any signal can be routed to multiple inputs.
In stm 2448 each channel can be sent to the mix buss and to a recording bus, exactly as in every professional mixer in the world,a signal can feed as many channels as you need. There is also a monitor circuit where you can send the channels and then you can enable individual channel outs for more exoteric routings.
Every path is switchable, so you can have multiple channels fed by one signal, each one to a different recording bus, different fx and if you want only one dry to the mix bus...
Scope is the top of the routing possibilities compared to any other system in the world, hardware or software, maybe you should check the manuals.

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Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:30 pm
by symbiote
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what issues you are running into, but here's a quick tutorial on how you might do things.
First there's the Bus setup page:
This will let you send each channel to any of the 8 busses (in bunches of 2 for stereo signals.)
If you need to send an input to more than one output, you can use some of the Aux signal paths by setting them as "external":
The signals will be output thru the "Aux" outputs at the bottom. You can then send any of the inputs to any number of the Aux outputs.
The Aux trick will only output mono signals tho, so if you need stereo, and/or if your Aux are already used/filled, you can use the DirectOuputs functionality:
You can then submix any of the signals in any desired way using the smaller mixers:
Check the device sections for simple 3rd party mixers if you don't have the micromixer/dynamicmixer. There's one by j9k (called mega micromixer or something similar I believe) that has 8 stereo inputs and very low DSP usage that's pretty nice.
If you don't want to use additional mixers, you can combine the first and third trick. First activate the Direct Outputs, then forward a channel output back to an unused STM2448 channel. You can then send that channel to an additional Bus Output (you can mute/deactivate it if you don't want it to be mixed into the mixer's main mix output.)
There's also the Monitor/Ctrl stuff that can be used as an additional stereo output if you don't already use it.
But yeah, definitely check the manual, it's all in there =P.
If you need more help, post more informations on your setup (i.e. what kind/how many signals, from where/to where, are your Aux occupied, etc.)
edit: fixed the [img] tags etc

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Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:55 pm
by hubird
cool

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:45 am
by garygiles
Hi
1st of all, apologizes for the late reply. I never received an email informing of any replies to my topic.
Yes you can route STM2448 to a mix bus but not to any individual bus or all busses from the 1 input channel. . Yes I can use the aux sends but this is not enough outputs. In an ideal world I would like 16 Aux sends from each channel but I know this is not achievable. So I want to be able to send an input channel to any bus or a selection of buses or even all the buses if I wanted. At the moment I can only seem to be able to route an input channel to only 1 pair of buses. If I am missing something here please do put me right. But if this is the case this is what I meant by writing, This should be very simple to do I would have thought and very basic, because this can be achieved by any sound console I have used over the past 22 years.
I want to use the scope cards in the theatre environment where flexible routing is of the up most. I believe creamware products would have a great future in theatre if the routing could be sorted out.
Again if I am missing something here I would be very grateful if you could point me in the right direction.
Thanks for the your replys.
Regards,
Gary Giles

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:36 am
by alfonso
As I said you can connect any output to multiple inputs, there is no need to send a channel to multiple busses, you can have a bus out connected to as many devices as you need, or a signal feeding as many mixer channels you need.
You can also use "Channel" devices to have individual control to duplicated signals.

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:58 am
by garygiles
Very sorry but this all seems more complicated than it should be.
Alfonso
As I said you can connect any output to multiple inputs
Does this require more than 1 mixer? Or are you’re saying route an output back into a spare channel on the same desk?
Alfonso
there is no need to send a channel to multiple busses.
There is a need as I want to be able to route say a reverb effect to multiple outputs.
Alfonso
You can also use "Channel" devices to have individual control to duplicated signals.
Sorry this all seems to me over complicated just for me to be able to route to an individual channel to multiple outputs.
Again if I am missing something I apologize.
Is it possible for you to send me a screen shot of your ideas?
Regards
Gary

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:28 am
by alfonso
On 2005-11-20 08:58, garygiles wrote:
Very sorry but this all seems more complicated than it should be.
>>>>I ensure you it's easier than it seems.
Alfonso
As I said you can connect any output to multiple inputs
Does this require more than 1 mixer? Or are you’re saying route an output back into a spare channel on the same desk?
>>>>You can simply route a synth or an asio source or whatever to multiple mixer channels, any output can go to multiple inputs. No need for more mixers.
Alfonso
there is no need to send a channel to multiple busses.
There is a need as I want to be able to route say a reverb effect to multiple outputs.
>>>>>route that single bus to all the destinations you need. Like above, any output can be cabled to as many inputs you need.
Alfonso
You can also use "Channel" devices to have individual control to duplicated signals.
Sorry this all seems to me over complicated just for me to be able to route to an individual channel to multiple outputs.
>>>> I was just pointing to the Single channel device (like a 1 channel mixer) that can be found in the Mixer folder and can be useful if you want to have separate control on a certain signal, but if you just connect your synth outs to many channels of the 2448 mixer you can have the same individual control.
Again if I am missing something I apologize.
Is it possible for you to send me a screen shot of your ideas?
>>>>>Can't now, just connect your sound source to many mixer channels, or better the bus output to all the destinations you need.
I hope it's clear...
Ciao.

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:33 am
by alfonso
Ha, if you route a synth to multiple channels, you can disable all channels but one in the Mix channel, so you don't have to listen to the sum of all the inputs.

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:07 pm
by garygiles
On 2005-11-20 08:58, garygiles wrote:
Very sorry but this all seems more complicated than it should be.
>>>>I ensure you it's easier than it seems.
Alfonso
As I said you can connect any output to multiple inputs
Does this require more than 1 mixer? Or are you’re saying route an output back into a spare channel on the same desk?
>>>>You can simply route a synth or an asio source or whatever to multiple mixer channels, any output can go to multiple inputs. No need for more mixers.
>>>>> This seems a waste of input channels to be able to route a device to multiple outputs.
I hope it's clear...
>>>>>>>>>>I think it is clear to me that you and I come from very different backgrounds. I’m guessing here that your background is studio based where you only need to route an input channels to 1 stereo group. I come from a live theatre background where we are dealing with multiple speaker systems. The creamware devices have to be as simple as any live sound automated console we use. I just don’t understand why the routing in the bus select is not the same as any other console I have used where you can select more that just 1 stereo pair of buses. There is no console I have used restricts to that and believe me I have used a few over the years.
All the suggestions I have heard so far seem to me complicated work rounds to something that should be very simple.
When I get system back from the show it’s on at the moment I will do some screen shots for you.
Regards
Gary

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:57 pm
by alfonso
What about routing your bus out or your mix out to all the speakers?
How many speakers do you use? Did you check the Surround mixers?

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:20 pm
by garyb

> On 2005-11-20 12:07, garygiles wrote:
> There is no console I have used restricts to that and believe me I have used a few over the years.Gary

gee, i don't know....
since any output can feed more than one input, why not just connect the source that you need to send somewhere else to the mixer AND wherever else it needs to go, directly? you could also use the channels direct outs to do this. i think your thinking is too limited, unlike the real world, multiple y connections cause no decline in sound quality. the record busses are a mere convienience....

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:24 pm
by garygiles
Hi
I had a quick look at the surround mixers. Not enough outputs and no stereo inserts on the input channels. I really need to be able to have the flexible routing for different presets.
Regards
Gary

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:16 pm
by alfonso
On 2005-11-20 13:24, garygiles wrote:
Hi
I had a quick look at the surround mixers. Not enough outputs
>>>>>>on STM48S you can have 8.1, not enough?
and no stereo inserts on the input channels.
>>>>> If you look well adiacent channels can be linked and they share then insert slots that load stereo fx. each side mantains the surround panpot.
I really need to be able to have the flexible routing for different presets.
>>>>No other system has more flexible routing, it just needs a bit of manual reading to learn the features.

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:05 pm
by djmicron
it's true that with stm mixers you can not assign more than one bus to the same channel, but using the direct outputs, you can use a dynamic mixer as a bus addon to your stm....
Micron

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:17 pm
by garygiles
I had a quick look at the surround mixers. Not enough outputs
>>>>>>on STM48S you can have 8.1, not enough?
I need to wait till my Project system comes back. I only have a Home system avalible to me at the moment. I will take another look at the STM48S again. Yor right I might have missed something here. Thanks very much for the advice. Its very much appriciated.
I will let you know how I get on.
Regards
Gary

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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:37 am
by garygiles

> Did you check the Surround mixers?

Hi
Thanks very much for the suggestion of checking out the surround mixers. These are certainly better solutions for my requirements but although still very quirky to use.
Thanks again for your advice and ideas.
Regards
Gary

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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:53 pm
by astroman

> On 2005-11-20 07:45, garygiles wrote:
> ...I want to use the scope cards in the theatre environment where flexible routing is of the up most. I believe creamware products would have a great future in theatre if the routing could be sorted out...

I think your 'problems' were mostly due to being unfamiliar with the system yet, but your assumption is pretty close to the facts. CWA is working exactly on that kind of stuff - you're on the right track
cheers, Tom

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:17 am
by garygiles

> I think your 'problems' were mostly due to being unfamiliar with the system yet, but your assumption is pretty close to the facts. CWA is working exactly on that kind of stuff - you're on the right track
> cheers, Tom

I think your partly correct. But CWA do seem make things more complicated then they need to be. There is no real reason not to be able to any number of buses.
Not sure what you meant by "but your assumption is pretty close to the facts. CWA is working exactly on that kind of stuff - you're on the right track"?
What do you mean by that? Do you have a connection with CWA?
Regards
Gary

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:43 am
by astroman
not at all - I just read the papers
just as you observed there's a basic functionality in SFP to deal with event and location audio, so did they.
I can hardly imagine any 'problem' at all in your installation that cannot be solved technically with SFP.
But it may end rather clumpsy and possibly not exactly fun to operate.
As they did with the broadcast stuff they'll certainly optimize the system for a specific task, but what you learn now will most likely show up again in whatever may be released in the future.
SFP is a very solid foundation for a lot of applications. It CAN be taylored to most everything, so it's worth having a closer look if something doesn't appear in the first moment.
cheers, Tom

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:48 am
by garyb
garygiles, your idea would be good if implemented. it would be convienient, but you can still send a direct out ANYwhere with a simple patching and you can save each setup as a project. i agree that a series of buttons that could be all on if you wanted would be good. you CAN do what you want to do for the moment, however.
all you really need is a swithing bus with like, 16-24 inputs and 8 busses. you could connect direct outs to the inputs of the switch and choose 1,2 or even 8 of the busses for each input, no? presets could be used to quickly change assignments in a show. that might be an easier device to build than a whole mixer....

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:26 am
by garygiles
HI
I can see that there are work rounds for my problem and at the moment the STM48S seems to be the best solution at the moment that I have found. It enables me to route any input channel to any number of output buses. But it would be so much better if it could route to buses 1 3 5 and not L LC LR again this is a messy way of doing it.
Your correct in saying the SFP is a very solid foundation and the more I use it the more I learn how powerful the card and software is. I may be missing something here but the routing has to be made simpler to use for me to hire and sell these systems. Many of my clients will get very frustrated with the clumsy way it works. There is only a short amount of time to put on a show so patients are short. The interface has to relate to real world mixers and all the mixers I have ever used has the very simple facility of being able to route any input channel to any combination or all output buses.
I just find it so frustrating because I really believe that CW card could have a great a great future ahead of its self in the theatre world. But it has to get some basic stuff sorted with the Scope software and the A16 Ultra which I also think is a great product.
I guess only time will tell. 
Gary

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:53 pm
by symbiote
Well I'm not really familiar with theatre audio, and you haven't described an average setup (what are the sources, what are the destination, number of each, what kind of mixing/processing needs to be done,) but there's definitely some way of doing what you want.
You could just load several mixers, one for each destination, and automate them with MIDI. Then you could easily recall presets and control parameters on each of them, at the same time and/or in groups (by grouping them using MIDI channels,) without having the whole setup taking much more DSP than the STM mixers.
I don't know what would need sorting out routing-wise in the SFP system. It's not terribly different from a standard physical setup with cables, if you're familiar with hooking up cables you should have no problem working with SFP. The hard part is learning all the modules/devices, and they are all very well explained in the manuals.
On the other hand, a theatre-specific mixing device would probably be a pretty neat idea, but you'll need to provide much more information/specifications, i.e. number of sources, minimum number of outputs/destinations, infrastructure needed (volume, pan, inserts, auxs? how much inserts/auxs?), minimum number of channels, prefered interface presentation, specific hardware mixers that do the job (and no "every one I used" please, specific brand and models,) and any other quirks/particular signal-chain stuff that needs to be adressed.

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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:23 pm
by garygiles
How did you put pics into your reply? then I can show you what I like in my mixer config.
_________________
CueOne
Studio 19
Brockley Cross Business Centre
96 Endwell Road
London SE4 2PD
Tel: 020 7277 9933
Mob: 0778 5564 281
Email: gary@cueone.co.uk
Web: http://www.cueone.co.uk

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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:31 pm
by garygiles
Have a look at these this should help give you a better idea of what I'm looking for.
http://www.siegelmusic.de/siegelmusicdevices.html
These are dam clase to what I need. The only extra things I liked to see is 4 inserts on each inpup, a lable window for inputs and outputs. 2 Inserts for the outputs. 24 Aux's would be good to.

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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:26 am
by symbiote
Alright, I'll look into it. Can't promise anything, I'm still pretty SDK-newbie and I'll be away for most of the month, but I might hack something together early next year.
As for the images, I just put them on some webspace I have and used [img] tags

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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:28 am
by garygiles
[quote]
On 2005-12-10 09:26, symbiote wrote:
Alright, I'll look into it. Can't promise anything, I'm still pretty SDK-newbie and I'll be away for most of the month, but I might hack something together early next year.
I too hope to start learning how to use SDKvery soon and to be able to produce my own devices.