## Link modules for communication between Scope/modular and PD

Device/Module Wishlist

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=23671

#### Link modules for communication between Scope/modular and PD

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:06 am
by petal
I've been getting into Pure Data lately and what a wonderful environment it is – Easy to use and endlessly detailed if you want it to be. It puts a very special kind of control in the hands of anybody who are willing to invest just a little time actually getting into the PD environment.
Now if only I could gain the same kind of control in my Scope environment, and especially in the CW Modular, a match in heaven would be a reality.
Pure Data would deliver the most flexible control data possible out there atm. And Scope would deliver audio power beyond what PD is currently capable off.
To me Midi doesn't really give the control I'm after, it's 7-bit depth is too grainy and Midi is sluggish, which lead me into thinking, maybe we don't need midi at all, all that is needed is high resolution communication channels between PD and Scope. One could implement the OSC-protocol (Open Sound Control) or simply just create a few simple channels for high resolution control data streams.
A positive side-effect could be that the Scope environment would gain interest from one of the most interesting Audio communities out there atm. Something that would benefit our beloved Scope-platform
So the wish and question is, is it possible to build the needed modules that would enable high resolution control from the Pure Data environment to the Scope environment?
And would other users beside me be interested in this?
Cheers!
Thomas
Pure Data: http://puredata.info/
Open Sound Control: http://opensoundcontrol.org/

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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:24 pm
by Shroomz~>
Petal, it's an interesting subject, but the high resolution control data streams you speak of producing in PD for control of say CW modular aren't as high res as Scope's internal control data streams which are mostly 32-bit integer.
If you have specific examples in mind of what you'd like to achieve, maybe there's a way it can be done, especially for modular where we're not necessarily confined to the restricted res of 7-bit midi control. It's a serious task when you consider that not all modular module parameters have been designed with that in mind though.

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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:42 am
by petal
Yes I could imagine that this would be a big project, but it would be a very interesting one, since it would bring an alternative to Midi to Scope.
Ideally I'd want a suite of modules that would bring OSC to the modular. This would open a direct controller link to applications like Pure Data, Max/MSP and the new Ableton Live.
OSC is the future "Midi protocol". The good thing about OSC is that it is an established protocol with existing modules for sending and receiving data in the above mentioned applications, so all that is needed is modules in Modular/Scope that can receive and send back OSC-data.
When the link is up and running a range of modules will filter out the needed data streams and convert them into something useful within the modular, where the most interesting type of data for me right now would be High Resolution Controller Data, but all kinds of known midi-data could be communicated through this channel, but through a much more reliable and flexible data channel than what we have all come to hate MIDI for.
The kind of control and manipulation to controller data streams you can do in the Pure Data environment is not possible within Scope, which is why I think this could be a very interesting feature to bring to Scope.
And it would bring an affordable and mature high end DSP Audio Engine closer to where most experimental audio applications are being developed today, something which can only benefit Scope as a whole.

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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:58 am
by petal

> <~Shroomz~> wrote:the high resolution control data streams you speak of producing in PD for control of say CW modular aren't as high res as Scope's internal control data streams which are mostly 32-bit integer.

Anything better than 7 bit would be interesting to me. It doesn't have to be exactly 32-bit integer.
Another cool thing would be if you could sync up PD to Scope and create controller data that will update on each audio sample.
If you use the OSC protocol, you'll open up the Scope platform to the future.
If its possible to create the needed module for OSC in Scope I don't know, I'm just mentioning it because it's the only alternative to Midi I know about out there.

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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:37 am
by Shroomz~>
I don't think implementing OSC for modular (never mind Scope devices in general) is something that could be done by just any developer. I'm sure It would need to be SonicCore & in the case of an OSC interface for modular, well how far up SC's 'to do' list should something like that be assuming that it's even something they'd consider doing? I'm not sure, but realistically I'd say it won't happen at all or else it would have been in Flexor3. As for OSC for Scope in general, well you're talking about updating the whole platform including every single device to be able to make use of any such OSC integration module for Scope, otherwise all of the current devices would still only be able to be controlled via 7-bit midi & there would be practically no point to the venture.
Hope you're not too dissapointed with the thought that this probably will not happen for the existing software in the form of just a couple of modules to install &plug in. If it does, I'll be really surprised.

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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:44 am
by petal
I understand what you are saying, which is why I've focussed on the modular where I see a specific use for this allready.
But maybe I should contact Adern and/or Wolf who may have a bit more insight into whether it would be possible at all.
It is a shame though that people are just satisfied with MIDI - a technology thats almost 30 years old and has been outdated for the past 20 years.
If people really started to complain about the bad timing and the lacking bandwidth in MIDI, maybe developers would show a bit more interest in actually implementing a new protocol like OSC.
Anyways, thanks for showing my request some interest!
Cheers!
Thomas

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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:00 am
by Shroomz~>

> petal wrote:But maybe I should contact Adern and/or Wolf who may have a bit more insight into whether it would be possible at all.

Go for it, why not. They're much more experienced Scope devs, so lets see what they say when you ask them.
I do like the idea btw & it's been mentioned before on the forum here several times in the past year or so, but it still hasn't been done & there's plenty clever Scope devs lurking around here who you'd think might have done it by now (including Adern for modular if it was possible).

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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:02 pm
by Shroomz~>
Edit:- It's likely possible, but it would probably take SonicCore to do it, as it would take a new MRC-like device (direct parameter linking) & hence new modular shell to fully implement an OSC server & client within modular.
One possible workaround in the meantime would be to convert your OSC to audio rate signals within the likes of Bidule or Max/MSP, then using 32-bit ASIO you could fire those signals into/out of modular. Obviously some modules modulate at audio rate better than others & you would be limited to the number of available ASIO connections, but it should work.

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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:59 pm
by petal
That's an interesting workaround I hadn't thought about - thx

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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:41 pm
by kensuguro
I wonder what parameters you would encode into the audio as control signals? If we can come up with some sort of standard, than I'm sure it can be ported to Max/MSP at the very least. Are you talking about MIDI type signals? Or generic audio rate CV?

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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:12 pm
by petal
Well, the main goal right now for me is getting control data with more than 128 steps. So I'd be going for generic audio rate CV.
The kind of control data you can produce in an invironment like PD is just inspiring to me which is why I'd like to see this up and running with Scope.
But in the long run I just really like the idea of being able to integrate at least the modular with PD / MaxMSP / Live through OSC because it allows for a much more reliable and more flexible control link between the different applications.
I'd think that a simple OSC link to the modular with limitations would be possible without a complete revised Scope-system/Modular. Which would be fine for now.
If one of our fine developers out there could shed some light on the subject it would be much appreciated.
In the long long run I'd like to see Scope become one of the first really interesting DSP Audio systems to integrate OSC. If it does you'll be seeing peeps in PlanetZ with a completely different angle on what the system can be used for.

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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:38 pm
by dawman
That is interesting 4 sure.
Bidule's standalone has been upgraded to multi-core compliancy, but the VST version hasn't changed.
It's a great shell for VSTi's no doubt about that. I recently routed my first VST effect ever into Scope through Bidule and it's perfect. GVI / Bidule / Scope / and the E6800 share resources perfectly. The VST was a Lo-Fi effect that turns vocals into a MegaPhone Turntable sound beautifully.
Wasn't Yamaha's MLan suppose to take over MIDI next? Maybe Pure Data will be the future.

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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:49 pm
by kensuguro
I've built a couple of commercial installations on max/msp so it'll great if I can integrate scope somehow.

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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:44 am
by petal
Ken: you can alreadyl use ASIO and MIDI to connect MaxMSP and PD, but with the already mentioned limitations.
S4L: I think you are confusing things a bit Pure Data is the application, OSC is the new Midi