## Scope MIDI File Player

Device/Module Wishlist

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=26178

#### Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:18 pm
by dawman
Is there such a thing yet?
If not this would be useful for some of us.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:02 pm
by Neutron

> XITE-1/4LIVE wrote:Is there such a thing yet?
> If not this would be useful for some of us.

I dont think it is possible at all with scope with the current tools, and difficult even if you could code for it. decoding of the midi file is something best suited to a general purpose CPU rather than DSP.
maybe you can just set your "default midi synth" to a scope MIDI port and play it from winamp or windows media player.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:54 pm
by dawman
I guess I'll just keep my QY700 a little bit longer.
Thanks Brotha' Man Nuetron.
BTW ADT is awesome on vocals. Bypass connected to a footswitch.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:54 am
by dante
Ok but how about this idea. A Scope Sysex streamer ?
With Scope devices you can save presets right ? How about if a preset file contained a sysex dump of an external synth patch ? When you load that preset, it send the sysex data to the device's midi out !!
This would be great for live playing where it would save the need to load up patch editors or sequencers just to send some patches to your synth rack.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:58 am
by eric
Dante,
The practice used to be to send sysex from the sequencer at the beginning, to set up outboard gear, before any other messages. It was used to set up patches to guarantee that the sound/effect was identical each time; also to ensure that the correct sound was played without relying on a patch change message to activate a patch stored in the gear, which may have been altered. The drawback to using sysex in live or recording situations, is that if you are using MTC and you send the sysex during sequencer playback, it can cause timing glitches if the sysex data is large. This is because ALL other messages are delayed until after the sysex packet has been sent uniterrupted. The real time flow is something like-
NoteOn,NoteOff,MTC,(xF0...sysex data...xF7),NoteOn,NoteOff,MTC: this last MTC could be delayed.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_timecode for MTC.
In a MIDI-file it is simpler. Every message is followed by a delta time to the next message.
Because it is not real time the MIDI-file generator can calculate the exact delta time of the next event after the sysex message, as recorded in the sequencer.
So the answer is yes, you could send sysex messages with the preset, but not over MIDI if using the sequencer live. Live meaning during a number. Between numbers would be OK. In a recording situation you could lose sync with video, machine control etc. There is a work around but I won't delve into it here.
Eric.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:23 pm
by dawman
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#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:44 am
by dante

> The drawback to using sysex in live or recording situations, is that if you are using MTC and you send the sysex during sequencer playback, it can cause timing glitches if the sysex data is large. This is because ALL other messages are delayed until after the sysex packet has been sent uniterrupted. The real time flow is something like-

Eric,
Im familiar with the problems of sysex transmission - probably because I use a Steinberg MIDEX and it's sysex handling is v bad.
In the main, I send patch data to my PLG150DX ( Yamaha DX7 on a board ) housed in a Kenton plugstation. It takes a second or 2 to send a DX7 patch via one of my Luna MIDI outs. I used to have the Kenton wired out thru the MIDEX but now use the Luna MIDI out because of the MIDEX sysex unreliability.
What you say is true - sysex transmissions break up if mixed with note data ( or notes are delyed )- but with DX7 patches I dont have much problem as long as theres a gap in note data. Even better was to create Reason Refills of all my fave DX sounds.
I'd still like to be able to use something within scope instead of loading a patch editor or using Cubase SL sysex dump (which isnt that user friendly.... dont know what its like in Cubase 4 though...)
I suspect the problem with the MIDEX is its LTB (Linear Time Base) would dictate note data always taking priority over the sysex therefore the sysex packets would HAVE to be broken up to fit in between notes and I'm not sure receiving device's firmware would have been written to paste back together a sysex message split into seperate packets..... or even if the MIDI protocol supported this at all. Its not a bad idea though....maybe for MIDI 2....
HEY MY VIOLIN SHOULD HAVE CHANGED INTO A TRUMPET 3 NOTES AGO !!!! LOL !!!!

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:45 am
by eric

> Eric,
> Im familiar with the problems of sysex transmission - probably because I use a Steinberg MIDEX and it's sysex handling is v bad.
> In the main, I send patch data to my PLG150DX ( Yamaha DX7 on a board ) housed in a Kenton plugstation. It takes a second or 2 to send a DX7 patch via one of my Luna MIDI outs. I used to have the Kenton wired out thru the MIDEX but now use the Luna MIDI out because of the MIDEX sysex unreliability.
> What you say is true - sysex transmissions break up if mixed with note data ( or notes are delyed )- but with DX7 patches I dont have much problem as long as theres a gap in note data. Even better was to create Reason Refills of all my fave DX sounds.
> I'd still like to be able to use something within scope instead of loading a patch editor or using Cubase SL sysex dump (which isnt that user friendly.... dont know what its like in Cubase 4 though...)
> I suspect the problem with the MIDEX is its LTB (Linear Time Base) would dictate note data always taking priority over the sysex therefore the sysex packets would HAVE to be broken up to fit in between notes and I'm not sure receiving device's firmware would have been written to paste back together a sysex message split into seperate packets..... or even if the MIDI protocol supported this at all. Its not a bad idea though....maybe for MIDI 2....
> HEY MY VIOLIN SHOULD HAVE CHANGED INTO A TRUMPET 3 NOTES AGO !!!! LOL !!!!

The MIDI spec. says that sysex messages CANNOT be interrupted. If they are then any data in between the F7 and F0 (sysex start and sysex end) will be interpreted by the receiving synth as sysex data and will obviously not be the data structures the synth is expecting. This will cause the receiving synth to abort the sysex.
I am currently using Cubase VST 5.x with a Midex8. As I don't use a lot of sysex, I don't find it a problem. I have a TX802, which is as you probably know a number of DX7's in a 2u rack mount. It also needs quite lengthy sysex dumps for simple patches and I wouldn't dare send it out from within a sequncer exept at the begining before any other MIDI data. You could send the sysex data from a patch editor I suppose, as long as it wasn't merged with anything else. MIDI mergers, including the MX8, should not merge any other data within a sysex dump (F7...F0) so delays would be inevitable.
I think what you are asking is reasonable. A patch should be able to be sent as a number of controller changes, a program change/bank change, a specific SFP device patch data, sysex or a combination. A file reader which opens and interprets the sysex data dump into MIDI and transmits it to an assigned MIDI out, all within Scope would be what you need.
I'm working on some MIDI projects at the moment. I don't have the SDk yet but it won't be long. I'll see what I can conjure up...
Check out the MMA (http://www.midi.org) site. There is talk of an HD MIDI standard. Don't hold your breath though!
Eric.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:53 pm
by dante
Ive sampled my favourite DX7 sounds at intervals of 4ths into Reason NNXT so dont need to change patches mid song. Even better would be TX802 - which Ive always wanted.
But Id be interested to know whether you can send patch sysex to it via the MIDEX, and if not whether it works by midi connect direct from one of your scope cards.
Another idea would be for the scope device to capture an incoming sysex patch dump for replay later. That way Id connect the output of DX Simulator ( patch editor packaged with the PLG150DX ) direct to it to store all my favourite presets & not need to use DX Simulator after that.
One problem may be the handshaking - I think DX Simlator needs a reply (ack) from PLG150DX - if so scope device would have to know how to receive acknowledged data etc and the full handshaking protocol, not just sending the dump one way.
Be interested to see it if you develop something...

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:14 am
by eric
I'm giving it some more thought, but as I don't have the SDK yet I don't know what it can and can't do.
MIDI does not reqiure nor implement any handshaking. As for the other gear, I'd need tech specs.
I will try a sysex dump via the Midex8 and let you know. I'm pretty sure it does as I route all the outboard MIDI gear, selectively, via Midex8 back to the PC/Scope for this very reason, as well as patch editing. I never use sysex while recording so no conflict in the Midex8. My setup is pretty complex because I have a lot of outboard gear and a real mixer which is the hub. Scope is (just) another device in the setup. I have 2 MIDI patchbays, one is programmable, a SPDIF/Co-axial patchbay a hardware sampler and a DAT. They all want to be the master clock too! Cubase VST 5 and GigaStudio (which doesn't want to play with anyone ATM) run alongside Scope. I have 4 different circuit diagrams for each "layer" from power to fibre-optic. The Audio patch bays are 2 x 44 and 2 x 22. And this is just a HOBBY!
Watch this space....
Eric.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:56 am
by dawman
Eric.
Gigastudio's Kernel Level MIDI timing was Gigastudio's reason for it's exclusiveness, which was great 5 or 6 years ago but nowdays sequencers have become better w/ MIDI.
You should look into GVI which is Gigastudio's VST version. It's lean fast and still sounds better than Kontakt. The Gigapulse IR's are O.K. too for pedal downs and certain mic'd amp placements, etc.
Using the ASIO 2 24 bit drivers in Scope works really well.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:48 am
by eric
Thanks Jimmy V.
Getting GigaStudio running again is something I want to do but not pressing. I know it's a very good and tight product. As I mentioned before the Boesendorf piano is supposed to be excellent. I believe it's been surpassed tho'.
Eric.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:37 am
by dawman
Micheal Post makes great Piano libraries and is the European representative for East/West.
IMHO it's probaly the same Piano you can find in their QL Pianos as I have both and the sound is the same. Except that they have added dozens of IR's and mic placements which are basically for convenience. I can get higher quality reverbs from Scope or hardware, and using BX Digital or Master IT EQ from DAS, I can easily get more psuedo mic placements with more control and better sound.
The more crap these guys add the worse performance you get.
Giga has the best polyphony of any streamer because they paid for the Rockwell/Conexent streaming license. Everyone else uses a less efficent cheaper method and that's why you need more and more power to make up for the streaming deficiencies.
PLAY ( East/West ) recently " upgraded " their streamer after so many people complained about the unnacceptable amounts of polyphony they were getting.
They do have excellent sounding instruments, so hopefully I can get a couple once they get their products become acceptable for guys who use more than one hand when they play.
Garritan will hopefully re develope Gigastudio. Because of it's high polyphony and better sound quality in the low and high end, it won't be dead for a while.
I will use GVI for any libraries that need realistic low end, for example my Tympanies in Gigastudio from 5 years ago still smoke the britches off of all of these enormous romplers no matter how much reverb they bathe in, or low EQ they add to their recordings.
Let me know if you ever need help w/Gigastudio or GVI. You already have Scope, so these romplers that make your coffee and show pretty pictures of giant cathedrals and canyons can mostly be avoided if you treat your sample in Scope.
BTW, if you like the quality of sound you hear in video games it's because many of them, especially XBox and PS3, comes from the same streaming license.

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:04 am
by dante
Eric, strange what you say about no handshaking in MIDI as if I dont have DXSimulator patch editor wired up both ways (midi out to PLG150DX and midi back in from PLG150DX ), the full bank sysex dumps dont work. I will try adding the scope MIDI monitor into the path to see whats going on.
If your MIDEX works well for sysex, then something must be wrong with my Midex - I always just assumed the MIDEX didnt support sysex because it couldnt co-exist with LTB. But I spose that shouldnt stop it working when nothing else ( note data ) is going on. Warrants more investigation - I will experiment.
Come to think of it, I seem to remember other MIDEX users winging bout the same thing on the Cubase forums.....

#### Re: Scope MIDI File Player

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:40 pm
by iSiStOy
Hi Guys,
this idea is a great one, to be able to manage patch sysex dump and sysex command data directly from scope.
At least for the one who has some HW and want some command editor that you could "map" your own machines command and data into.
There is my Juno 106 for instance, which is quasi exclusively receptive to sysex and no CC's. I found some patchname & even midi ctrl panels made for Cubase SX 3 that works ok but I would rather like to have the sysex tool with edition & dump capabilities directly in scope.
Anybody knows if the SDK could handle it? If so, maybe I could give it a try...
iSiS