## DSP Zippers

Scope and XITE Development

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=23244

#### DSP Zippers

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:55 pm
by dawman
Is there a way around having these in Delays, and Reverbs?
It is the only flaw which I consider to be a big one with our software.
I would love to hear a reverb which could tap the power of a 3 card DAW, and be able to respond to MIDI CC's w/o all of those crappy artifacts.
Sure it ain't necessary to have, but I often change the size, diffusion, and decay times live, as they are fun to change the sound of your comps, versus your solos, etc. Crank up the mix level on a fading drum kit simultaneously.
Too bad that this can't be corrected,...................Or Can It?
Peace,

####

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:19 pm
by hubird
reverbs are the most critical element to process, imagine what change of algorhythm would do to a such delicat sound.
I would say, accept you need several different reverbs at a time.
I agree change of room during playing must be great

####

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:43 pm
by dawman
Why do my 2 x DSP hardware Lexicons respond flawlessley, when my 36 x DSP DAW sounds like a cassette tape exploding?
Imagine having a Pro card for reverb processing compared to 2 little Motorola's that Lexicon used.
NVidia was messing around with this idea a few years ago using the power of the Graphics cards processors, but I never heard about it again.
I like the sound that Warp, and DAS have achieved with their DSP reverbs, and could actually use them for static rooms / halls and change the ER's on my hardware units, but then there's that nasty PCI oversaturation thing.
I'm just amazed that Scope can do so many things, but still can't beat a 2 chip hardware unit.
I am however grateful for everything else that Scope does, which in many cases outdoes hardware.
I am just baffled why this can't be done.
I suppose that UAD, and PoCo suffer the same fate?
I remember years back we were using a Pro Tools Mac w/ Lexicons NuVerb. The engineer was shaking his head and I asked him what's the problem? He says the reverb sounds like shit. So since we could master on the Neve I unscrewed my PCM70 and the difference was like night and day.
Maybe with new cards and a new PCO 2.0 standard someone in Germany might hear our cries and break out the Black Fin's and punish mankind with it.

####

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:24 am
by astroman
Jimmy, this isn't related to processing power at all.
Reverbs use buffers and it's impossible to immediately replace all 'non-matching' values on a heavy parameter change - even more as in Scope (at least a part of) the data has to be transferred over a bus system.
The control of your 2 Motorola Lexicon thingy has a more 'direct' access to the hardware (it's machine programmed), so they can do a mute-modify-activate-loop on parameter changes.
cheers, Tom

####

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:22 am
by Shroomz~>
The dsp-based delays available to Scope developers already have output muting on delay time parameter changes implemented, but it doesn't make them zipper free, it only reduces/alters the zipper noise.

####

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:00 pm
by astroman

> Shroomz II wrote:The dsp-based delays available to Scope developers already have output muting on delay time parameter changes implemented, but it doesn't make them zipper free, it only reduces/alters the zipper noise.

can they dispose of (or adjust/cross-fade) existing buffer-content in such a situation ?
(I may be completely on the wrong track, as I have no idea how that stuff is implemented....)
cheers, Tom

####

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:06 am
by tgstgs
if mute /modify/ unmute you change the probl. but still hear noise;
more clicking noise;
to dont click you must implement a algo running within 2 samples each sample
try to loop a complex wave clickfree and you know what im talking;
----------
what you hear are steps in the wave;
imaging a stair you run down with one step being higher than the other-> you fall!
--
dont talk of scope inside but in c there are many ways to compensate;
fe. search the highest step you may take without to fall (hear) -> restrict to this;
now no steps higher are possiblke = lower reacting time!
---
if not possible to change steps (fix raster) lower the range to fit in this raster;
--
if oversampling is possible you can make a variable raster fe. 1 high step other low to be faster in reaction;
in 96kHz = sampling frequency/2 = non hearable!
--------
so its all possible !!!
its up to the developer to decide if he puts as much developing time in one fader than in the rest of the device!
-----
have to add that HW units are much easyer to do ;-> one fader or poti;
in digital spezialy scope flexibility your able to control with textDisplay fader poti keyboard mouse mouseweel midicontroller of all imaginable companies SW controller . . . .
better to do 1 methode for all which satisfies 99% of the needs;
and add 1 spezial methode if needed for the one who needs!
===========
hope it helps the developers to improof their devices;
even the non sharing know how ones
================
good vibes from vienna

####

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:05 pm
by Shroomz~>

> astroman wrote:can they dispose of (or adjust/cross-fade) existing buffer-content in such a situation ? (I may be completely on the wrong track, as I have no idea how that stuff is implemented....)
> cheers, Tom

We only have basic/limited information (if any in many cases) on the atoms & modules available, but I know there are plenty of different types of low-level delay algos available to scope devs. Some are dsp delays (0 sample min delay time), some are PC delays (190 sample min delay time), some are combo dsp & PC delays, some are modulation orientated delays which are designed for chorus & flange FX, some are already internally interpolated with Float-based algos. It's how these atoms or modules get put to use the makes a difference. That's just an opinion though.

####

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:43 pm
by dawman
Well maybe there's hope then.
I would love to see someone make a reverb w/o zippers.
Do the UAD PoCo guys have the same trouble?
I get a kick out of hearing people rave about how DSP reverbs, and IR's are better than hardware. I don't care what picture they show alongside of their " emu ", it cannot function, or sound as well as hardware IMO.
I bet the guy who bought my Lexicon 200 for a hundred bucks is in hog heaven right now. As he understood exactly what I was talking about.
These things don't matter much when recording a track at a time, and mastering with one ambience, but I often use 8 - 12 different ambiences when recording as I lack the proper rooms, so I will re create them w/ a hardware reverb. Hell I have even heard guys sing and record in their bathtub !! Ambience is a very important part of recording, and yes changing the size of the room, decay, or mix levels in real time is important IMO.
Remember that ancient Emerson, Lake and Palmer song Lucky Man ? If so, think back to the end of the song where the engineer changed the mix and decay levels simultaneously on the ancient but fierce AMS reverb unit, that made Greg Lake's drums seem if he was fading away in the distance. This was done 30+ years ago !! And they pulled that trick off LIVE in '72 when I stared in amazement at my idols. I was too young to understand that the engineer was top shelf. He even had Palmers solo flanged, and phased live also. I have never forgotten that show.
I will just keep on recording and performing w/ hardware until some brave guy goes all out and does this for all of us. Even if the device costs 1000 bucks, I want it. For we know that we could use a few of these simultaneously for a truly awesome recording experience. Between my two Lexicons, and some GigaPulse ER's, I can get most of what I want in real time, but with a zipper free DSP reverb, I could perform with true studio quality tricks nightly.
I Await Our Savior.

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:48 am
by tgstgs
talk to developer!
im sure for 1000 bucks (dollar?)he open device again and add the algo;
even when the dollar isnt lot of worth these days
edit:
all guy have the same problem called math
---------
good vibes from vienna

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:44 am
by tgstgs
had a bit time to do a test with masterverb, and im unable to redo!
---------
so i wonder if only happens in vegas whats tested in vegas
---------
do you have same probl. with masterverb???
only noise i was able to produce was playing with ER settings!
but has nothing to do with zippering!!!!
----
in this case only cure would be a algo between samples each sample!
checking the steps!
i made a c++ methode long time ago this for, so im very sure its possible to do in scope too;
developers should search on clickfree looping algos!
good luck and good vibes from vienna

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:07 am
by dawman
Sounds like a job for one of the big 3rd party guys.
I was going to comment about Masterverbs ability to do a better job, but it's sound compared to Warp's or DAS's RMX160 pales in comparison. And actually if one can tame the ER's of the algorithm, the rest is academic.
In my experiences with hardware units, you always check out the ambience's, and Early Reflections first, as Halls and Rooms, etc. are much easier to achieve. The cheap Lexicons have great sounding halls like their big brothers of the PCM series. But small spaces and ambiences must require more DSP and superior algorithms. The TC Electronics M4000 is a really good ER unit, and very realistic sounding. Lexicons are actually not the most realistic, but the way they add no color to a sound but surround it w/ character is what makes them so desirable. They work great on sampled content, but for vocals, they excell. Especially the dual algo's where ER's are plentiful.
I was experimenting with my weak and wretchid voice through the A16 and a mic pre. I had a great vocal effect going w/ the dual algo's. I then attached DAS's SL9000 w/ it's marvelous gate, and one instance of the SSB Modulator and was shocked at the quality of the effect. Even my worthless ( but accurately pitched VX ) sounded great.
I also noticed that the AES / EBU I/O's of my card where the PCM91 and 81 get routed sounds so clear and precise. I never realised that the SP/DIF I/O's were inferior unitl then.
It's true about the dollar. A thousand dollars here now is easier to achieve. Our property value skyrocketed under G. Bush, and now that the Dems look to win the upcoming election, the people with money are finding shelters in preparation for the Dem's " Social Programs ". They always seem to get the vote by claiming to go after the rich guys ". Actually, it's the middle class working men and women who get hit. Americas middle class always foots the bills for both parties as the rich have good lawyers, and ample time to hide their funds. Nothing will change, except the rhetoric. But count on our economy slowing down while the EU's gets a big and needed boost. Good. Maybe then we will see Black Fins after all.
Thanks for your response tgstgs, I had no idea you were so well versed in C++ language. I should have known that a guy who admired my fallen hero as much as I, had knowledge and taste.
Strength And Honor,

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:23 am
by tgstgs
void main()
{
int thanx4roses=1;
}
---------
better c than english;
but 'well versed ' is relativ you know;
good vibes

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:35 am
by Shroomz~>
good tips from vienna tgstgs

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:04 am
by dawman
WHERE IS WARP69 ?
Since his reverb seems to be the weapon of choice, how good could that be w/o zippers?
I have only heard it once, I did like the sound even though it's application was generically applied on an entire mix. Hardly worth critiqueing.

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:43 am
by Shroomz~>
He still comes around the forum quite often. At least I see his name at the bottom of the screen as being logged in now & again. Hopefully it's people contacting him via PM to ask about purchasing his reverbs.
Hey, has anyone ever built a surround reverb for Scope? I can't seem to remember such a device, but it might just be my memory chip corroding.

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:42 am
by dawman
I would love to see that !
I have a psuedo 5.1 array I am trying out right now w/ 4 Barbettas, a stereo sub, and the rotary cabinet trying different combinations.
I am shocked at how well the MIDI Tremolo can throw the sound around in the STM1632S. I am trying to use the dual algo's of both the PCM91, and 81 this sounds really awesome so far. Since I doing a Psychedelic thing, it seemed appropriate.
How would that be applied in SFP? Or are my hardware verbs better suited?
I am trying to match the cabinets sounds as I am using 2 unmatched pairs. I even broke out an ancient Stereo EQ the Rane PEQ55. It has the proper XLR's and adds alot of control to the older Barbettas. The newer models are so well tuned they require nothing other than their own controls.
I would love to see a surround reverb w/o zippers !! Great Ideas are bouncing.
Thanks Shroomz II ( formerly known as Shroomz )

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:29 am
by Warp69

> scope4live wrote:WHERE IS WARP69 ?
> Since his reverb seems to be the weapon of choice, how good could that be w/o zippers?
> I have only heard it once, I did like the sound even though it's application was generically applied on an entire mix. Hardly worth critiqueing.

Im here!
You can already modify diffusion and reverb time without zippers. But its correct that you'll hear zippers when you change the size - and so does the Lexicon PCM91. Its possible to change that - you'll have to use modulation delaylines, but if you use linear interpolaters you'll get some lowpass filter effect. Only the linear interpolaters are available in Scope, but again - you could easily create 3rd or 5th order lagrange interpolaters in SDK.
Totally offtopic - All those new hardware reverbs are great - Bricasti M7, Quantec 2492/96 and Lexicon PCM96. Maybe its a reverb comeback.
Cheers

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:07 pm
by dawman
I have no zippers in the 91, at least in the algo's I use. Even my ancient PCM70 was zipper free.
I hope you are considering a zipper free creation. I would pay dearly for any R & D costs incurred.
Ask DAS, or SpaceF about me. I would love to use a DSP based reverb w/ muliple instances.
I have spent too much cash on hardware reverbs over the years, and would rather spend it on a DSP creation of yours. I hope you consider this.
I have a good feelin' about this.
Perhaps, the time is now.

####

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:33 pm
by Warp69

> scope4live wrote:I have no zippers in the 91, at least in the algo's I use. Even my ancient PCM70 was zipper free.

Yes, you have
Please feed the unit with a sine test sound and then change the size on the fly.
Edit: I did for you. Plate algorithm, first preset - changing size from 4.0 m to 39.4 m.
www.relab.dk/test.wav

> scope4live wrote: I would love to use a DSP based reverb w/ muliple instances.

I dont quite understande what you mean??? Do you mean a reverb with engineA and engineB?
Cheers

####

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:28 am
by tgstgs
im very sure you know cos otherwise your not be able to create so fantastic device;
so i guess there is only one vocable in english to define 2 sort of probl. which has nothing to do with each other
so please at least call them zippering1 and zippering2
1. feed a sinus to an amplifier and create a so called zippering effect to hear;
-> you still see the sinus looking outzoomed continous
you had to zoom in to see the steps (spices) where created-> you hear as zippering;
this is simple valuechangings;
2. feed a sinus to masterverb (forgive that i will only talk about 1st party no 3rd party verbs of what developer ever!)
-> you didnt even have to zoom in to see the trouble;
it looks like my 5 year old son cuttes the sinus in peaces putting it together afterwards;
this is cutted buffer contend;
its like switching phase random + valuechangings
--------
please correct me if im wrong so far
never dived into a reverbalgo!!
had such probl. often in non audiorelated stuff
but you know buffer is buffer and data is data
-------------
if adding an interpolation (whatsort ever is best to apply) it would help for probl. Nr.1;
but for probl. Nr2 you will change the wave more or less drastically as you said;
i dont understand why this all!?
how you select the smaples being interpolated? (them all?!)
how you know if its the cutting (switching) and not present in the wave you feed?
why you clean after?
---------
here we go
developer decide what settings are possible
you know befor if switching from A to B may be trouble and you know what sort of trouble;
so you know if its better to interpolate or crossfade for example
and you are able to tell how much samples befor and after the cut are nessersary to process;
more you are able to disallow scope4lives random changings or delay his changings to a time which is more suitable to the algo;
by changings on the fly you may jump for A to C missing B if the changings are made fast to minimize noise, dont?
----------
so i would first raster the variable contend of buffers to non noise sizes;
(a variable time raster cos 0crossings are frequency depending)
thiswhise your able to tell which valuechangings or bufferswitches are coursing trouble then decide the algo to eleminate;
+ allow only these settings freuqency/time depending which suits your needs;
your even able to manipulate the bufferconted to fit the changings;
-------------
man sitting in the dark here in vienna hope man from denmark brings light;
good vibes

####

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:18 pm
by Warp69
I imagine that the test file I posted earlier is part of zippering2, right?
There exist different types of transients elimination algorithms, like :
* Crossfading
* Gradual variation using interpolation - this is the one I would use in a reverb. (works like a chorus effect)
* Modified superposition
* Update state-vector
The last one can completely eliminate transients, bu have some drawbacks.
Cheers

####

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:14 pm
by dawman
WOW !!
Thanks for looking into this tgstgs, and Brotha' Man Warp69.
What are the drawbacks you speak of?
If it can't be performed effectively, oh well we tried.
As far as zippering goes. Could changing the rates of a super multi tap as in the Ursa Major be achieved with DSP with no artifacts?
And as far as the Plate example goes, I use the Hall algo which seems to avoid the deadly zippers. Maybe this isn't consistent with all algos.
I currently use GigaPulse for my ER's, and the Lexicon's for the rooms, etc. w/o zippers or artifacts.
I really need a 12 tap emu of the Ursa Major, as I could change the rates to go from a longer rate ( delay / echo ), to a tighter msec. rate for a tape style reverb. I currently use the 3 headed Tape Sim from Celmo for get ting close to what I've described, but it suffers from artifacts as well when changing rates. Too bad, as the sound of that device on my polyphonic synth patches is to die for. But I still use it on most of my ProWave Presets live. I just have a preset for each ProWave preset, and leave the 3 heads ( taps ) alone.
Warp69,
Did you ever use a Lexicon 12bit Prime Time w/ the ARP Odyssey style fader caps?
That delay was awesome, and displayed no artifacts when changing the rates.
My PCM81 does this well also, but the number of taps is limited.
Thanks 4 Your Efforts, I am very busy this weekend, but look forward to discussing this with you early next week.
Brotha' Man tgstgs,.......are you a developer in exile or something?

####

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:22 am
by tgstgs
time will tell
-----
btw the total zawinul concert is not canceled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
they make a total zawinul without zawinul;
they plan to show him on videowall!
crazy istn it
good vibes

####

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:46 am
by dawman
I hope I can see it.
What do you think of my Giant Multi Tap Delay / Tape Reverb ?

####

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:12 pm
by Warp69

> scope4live wrote:And as far as the Plate example goes, I use the Hall algo which seems to avoid the deadly zippers. Maybe this isn't consistent with all algos.

I respectfully disagree.

> scope4live wrote:Warp69,
> Did you ever use a Lexicon 12bit Prime Time w/ the ARP Odyssey style fader caps?
> That delay was awesome, and displayed no artifacts when changing the rates.
> My PCM81 does this well also, but the number of taps is limited.

Nope - I have never used a Lexicon Prime Time or PCM42. But many use the PCM42 before the digital reverbs as a predelay.
Cheers

####

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:46 pm
by dawman
With Kind Regards,
Gentlemens disagreements are the best kind.
Is such a large tap device possible?
I would love to have such a device that has no zippers when changing the rates. It acts like a giant multi-tap delay, which is the kind of sound effects that give percussive poly-synth comps a great tail. It could also be used as a psuedo reverb when the rates are lowered in the msec. range.
If there were " zippers " they might not be as noticable. This is similar to changing a reverb room size, as the space increases or diminishes for the appropriate effect.
I have no idea if it's possible, but if it is, I would gladly buy one. As the new Ursa emu is not as capable as it's hardware predecessor.
That was a synth players dream. As was the Prime Time, PCM41, and PCM42's were quite noble.
Thanks For Your Replies,

####

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:20 pm
by hifiboom
whats the use of being able to modify the room_size in real time?
just wondering?

####

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:43 pm
by hubird
in gaming, entering another 'room' it'll make it more realistic
in serious music it'll be alienating, which is eh...musical

####

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:23 pm
by hifiboom
lol play all games with a plate reverb and feel bigger.

####

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:10 pm
by dawman
Well I hear the zippers on the PCM's now. But they aren't noticable unless you change the size and gate slowly which thankfully I don't do. I never heard these on the PCM70, where you could tie several parameters to your Mod Wheel for this style of playing. I slide my finger on my ribbon controller to change the size, but am changing to an expression pedal as soon as it arrives. That MIDI Solutions FP8 is gonna be nice. I would rather use my feet, so I can keep both hands playing.
I use this technique when ending a song where you can go from your selected algo to an infinite reverb for the songs ending.
I especially like this on horn sections where I am using a gated reverb, and wish to reduce the length of the gate and room size simultaneously. It adds separation to the instruments in a live mix.
As far as changing room size in a video game, which BTW was a good example, I am sure the engineer could punch in as he follows the SMPTE code.
But this is no big deal, but in DSP / VST reverbs this is quite noticable. But I am sure when they designed these devices they weren't thinking about anything other than realistic sound emulations.
I still would like one that could come close to my examples with out all of the inherant noises.
I wonder if it is possible to make a 12 tap delay that could morph into a reverb like the effect that the old Ursa Major had. It was not designed to simulate rooms, or anything in particular but it sure had a great sound on my Oberheim back then. You had to physically change the parameters, just like the Lexicon Prime Time, PCM 41, or PCM 42. MIDI was still a gleam in somebody's eye at Yamaha back then.

####

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:27 pm
by Warp69

> scope4live wrote:With Kind Regards,
> Gentlemens disagreements are the best kind.
> Is such a large tap device possible?
> I would love to have such a device that has no zippers when changing the rates. It acts like a giant multi-tap delay, which is the kind of sound effects that give percussive poly-synth comps a great tail. It could also be used as a psuedo reverb when the rates are lowered in the msec. range.
> If there were " zippers " they might not be as noticable. This is similar to changing a reverb room size, as the space increases or diminishes for the appropriate effect.
> I have no idea if it's possible, but if it is, I would gladly buy one. As the new Ursa emu is not as capable as it's hardware predecessor.
> That was a synth players dream. As was the Prime Time, PCM41, and PCM42's were quite noble.
> Thanks For Your Replies,

Its possible to do a Ursa Major Space Station emulation (ADR68K do not have those algoritms), but I don't see a Size parameter on the Space Station - It would be extremely difficult to emulate the SST-282 without the actual unit.
The unit have different tap patterns, but no Size parameter.

####

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:45 pm
by Shroomz~>

> Warp69 wrote:Its possible to change that - you'll have to use modulation delaylines, but if you use linear interpolaters you'll get some lowpass filter effect.

The mod delays are very heavy on dsp consumption & the lowpass filter effect is quite extreme. Not so bad with a nice wet/dry balance, but very very noticeable when used fully wet.
regards,
S

####

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:23 pm
by Warp69
Regarding the dsp consumption - the reason for that is probably the use of internal ram on the dsp's.
You could use higher order lagrange to minimize the lowpass effect. But in reverbs its not that important, since there are alot of delay lines and it wont be that noticeable.

####

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:28 pm
by Shroomz~>
Yes, I'm pretty sure you're right with regards to the dsp consumption.

####

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:50 am
by dawman
There's no size on the hardware units, but rather rate ( speed ) which when shortened are similar to tightening up a space from a hall to a room kind of.
There are a couple on ebay and they are still quite expensive.
I found a close enough sound of that multi tap reverb thing in Celmos little KB mixer. As long as you set it and don't move the parameters it sounds good.
Brotha' Man Warp69, do you have a site I can visit. I would love to see some of your stuff. You obviously have many great harsware units, and know a great deal about applying this to DSP based FX.
Thanks everyone for their replies on this matter.

####

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:11 pm
by Warp69
I have www.relab.dk - nothing special, since most of it is hidden for the public.

####

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:49 am
by dawman
Thanks,
Very nice indeed.
Miraslav Philharmonic ?
These will work in GS4 via VST.
I must investigate PlanetZ's favorite reverb developer further.

####

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:24 am
by Warp69
Right now - Im busy with CSR2.
But development is slow right now, because of new toy - Roland R880 V2 reverb
Cheers

####

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:18 pm
by hifiboom
CSR2 ?
I thought you were building the 480L for scope.

####

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:43 am
by Warp69
Well - you never know.........................

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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:25 am
by hifiboom
warp,
will csr2 be the successor of csr1 with improvements, or just new emulated reverb algos (addition to csr1) ?
or both?

####

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:48 am
by Warp69
CSR2 will have no relations to CSR1 in terms of algorithms - its not an improved CSR1 - Its completely different. So CSR2 is far from a replacement of the CSR1. They will sound very different compared to eachother.
I dont think I'll release additional algorithms for the CSR1, like Chamber, Concert Hall etc or improved versions - since other have already released modified versions of the CSR1 algorithms
I might release better reverbs thats have a similar sound, but more dense and spacious.
Cheers

####

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:24 pm
by Shroomz~>
I know it's by far much less important than the sound, but it has to be said; the gui design of those CSR reverbs is really good. Whoever did the design work must've spent quite a lot of time on it because graphics are really time consuming. Then again, it looks like there's clever use of a design template accross the range which would cut down time & results in a great visual coherence as well.

####

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:52 am
by hifiboom

> Warp69 wrote:CSR2 will have no relations to CSR1 in terms of algorithms - its not an improved CSR1 - Its completely different. So CSR2 is far from a replacement of the CSR1. They will sound very different compared to eachother.

ah thx for the info

> Warp69 wrote: I dont think I'll release additional algorithms for the CSR1, like Chamber, Concert Hall etc or improved versions - since other have already released modified versions of the CSR1 algorithms

so you mean stolen algos? no...?!

> Warp69 wrote: I might release better reverbs thats have a similar sound, but more dense and spacious.

sounds interesting!
any new scope developments too? or not yet decided?

####

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:35 am
by Warp69

> hifiboom wrote: so you mean stolen algos? no...?!

Unfortunately yes.

> hifiboom wrote: any new scope developments too? or not yet decided?

Well - Im using Scope SDK for all my developments and the finished designs are then transformed to c++ for AU/VST devices. I was afraid of the possibility of reopening the devices in Scope , but the biggest problem is apparently reengineering of the VST/AU devices.
I will still have some problems with PCI performance, since I will use alot of delay lines.
Cheers

####

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:41 pm
by dawman
Do VST based reverbs function better than they do on a Scope card?
It seems like Scope can only handle so much before it gags. My convolution reverb /space effect in Gigastudio sounds good and can do as many IR's as the CPU allows. I only use it's pedal down impulses for acoustic piano, and resonant body impulses on acoustic instrument samples, mostly ER type stuff as that seems to be it's strength.
I can use VST FX now like crazy when I get Forte, and w/ the 3GB RAM Switch I will be looking for a quality reverb.
You seem to have and own the best reverbs around, and the fact you mention many delay lines makes me want more info.
Please keep posting here even though it's a zipper thread, it has taken a great direction, and taught me many things from your posts.
I wish to purchase whatever you are making when it's done, whatever way you sell it.

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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:46 am
by Warp69

> scope4live wrote:Do VST based reverbs function better than they do on a Scope card?

The short answer is no! Most people think that the ST reverbs sounds better than the CSR and so do I. But not everyone have a quad core system so you'll have to make some shortcuts and optimization of the VST code, which can sound worse than the DSP version.

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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:21 pm
by dawman
I think I need to see a different website for your DSP reverb products.
I couldn't find them where the CSR's were shown.
Thanks.

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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:32 pm
by next to nothing
try http://www.sonictimeworks.com/products.php

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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:28 pm
by hifiboom

> Warp69 wrote:

> > hifiboom wrote: so you mean stolen algos? no...?!

> Unfortunately yes.

really and me, I thought this wasn`t possible.
Thats a sad thing for you.
so you aren`t afraid to release csr2 too?

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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:26 pm
by dawman
Thanks 4 the link Brotha' Man Piddi.
I didn't know that was Warp69's stuff.
It was the first site I visted when I started uses a Scope DAW live a few years back.
The 4080L was my interest.
What the hell, I'm gonna get some more toys next week.
It's feast or famine, and right now until at least New Years I am feasting.
Thanks Again Brosky,

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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:34 pm
by Warp69

> scope4live wrote: I didn't know that was Warp69's stuff.
> It was the first site I visted when I started uses a Scope DAW live a few years back.
> The 4080L was my interest.

I only made the P100 & I100/A100 products :
http://www.sonictimeworks.com/p_100.php
http://www.sonictimeworks.com/a_100.php
Michael Olsen did the products (like 4080L etc) and Kim Rasmussen did latest updates and the SharcOne. You can download demos of those products here :
http://www.d-media.dk/downloads/Timewor ... _2demo.zip
http://www.d-media.dk/downloads/SharcOne_1_00_demo.zip

> hifiboom wrote: really and me, I thought this wasn`t possible.
> Thats a sad thing for you.
> so you aren`t afraid to release csr2 too?

Well - unfortunately thats part of life. Apparently its takes a year before the VST/AU devices are diassembled so I have one year sales periode. IK have a strong brand and besides the other reverb have just been released so I dont know the effect yet. Im not afraid of releasing CSR2 - if I dont, someone else will do those emulations.
The more I think about it.................. I'll have to release the H100/C100 for Scope - I just need to finish them up.

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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:51 pm
by garyb

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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:06 am
by katano

> Warp69 wrote:The more I think about it.................. I'll have to release the H100/C100 for Scope - I just need to finish them up.

yes, please!

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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:03 am
by astroman
yes, just do it...

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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:12 am
by hifiboom

> Warp69 wrote: Well - unfortunately thats part of life. Apparently its takes a year before the VST/AU devices are diassembled so I have one year sales periode. IK have a strong brand and besides the other reverb have just been released so I dont know the effect yet. Im not afraid of releasing CSR2 - if I dont, someone else will do those emulations.

thats true. I agree, the sad thing is that others profit in the end from your developments, and you not.
The good side is that native and plug-in reverbs come closer to the magic hardware every year.

> Warp69 wrote: The more I think about it.................. I'll have to release the H100/C100 for Scope - I just need to finish them up.

I appreciate this, as I am mostly interested in the Hall from all your algos.

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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:44 am
by dbmac

> Warp69 wrote:
> The more I think about it.................. I'll have to release the H100/C100 for Scope - I just need to finish them up.

I'm in.
/dave

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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:29 pm
by wayne
Me want.

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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:18 pm
by MD69
Me too ...

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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:41 pm
by dawman
I just tried to buy all of warp69's reverbs and found out, through his refreshingly honest comments, that I already have them in hardware.
Now I know why everyone here loves his plates, and inverses. They were based on the PCM91.
In that case you guys are in for a treat with the Concert and Random Halls. Lexicon reverbs are just damn pretty.
I cannot wait for his new stuff.
I will buy anything he makes.