## Simple 8 track sequencer

Device/Module Wishlist

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=16528

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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:11 pm
by dawman
Hello Friends,
I'm your new green neighbor.I can't sleep ever since I got my GS3,Scope rig.And this is an extremely great community forum,which leads me to this question. Is there a sequencer program that is just a basic midi recorder/playback program. I'm quite familiar with external hardware sequencers, but want an in the box solution for rehersal purposes, with seperate click out. Not some bloated host/VST, but DSP/Scope device.
_________________
Jimmy V.

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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:28 am
by astroman
actually DSPs are horrible (at least) for midi and SFP (including both version of the developement system) doesn't include any sophisticated midi stuff.
Midi is from a time when memory was precious and performance was squeezed out of any bit available - you possibly may have noticed that midi deals with something called a nibble, which is 4 bits = half a byte...
systems were clocked in the MHZ range back then and assembly language of 8 bit processors was the proper (and widespread) tool.
If you look at midi commands and controllers you'll see immediately this 8 bit structure, optimized for for logic operations like masking or shifting certain bits.
this heritage makes it somewhat 'strange' in context of current software developement.
Such a low level is generally avoided because it's rather time consuming, demands a high level of abstraction and finally isn't necessary anymore due to higher clocked CPUs.
An SFP midi module should NOT run on the DSPs, but is perfectly ok as a piece of native CPU code - as you can see in your .dll folder inside SFP not everything is coded for Sharcs
BUT, there's a catch: Scope runs on different brands of CPUs, different operating systems and there's no common midi ground.
In other words: a sophisticated midi module would require at least 2 completely different versions (simplyfied) - and that's the reason why it doesn't exist (yet).
On the other hand there's possibly a lot of midi stuff available that could be useful, but it's just unknown, so one really had to dig the net.
The main aspect would be to keep some kind of sync between a 'helper app' and SFP - dunno if a software interface exists or could be implemented easily.
just as a rough idea one could imagine an abused vdat track which is read out by a concurrent application to provide sync for separately recorded midi data.
As mentioned midi is close to no CPU load, so such a 'helper' could write the events to disk sequentially to it's own file, while every midi event generates a pulse (or whatever) on the vdat guide track.
On playback the midi helper app reads the vdat track (a regular wav file) synchronously to vadat playing back.
There's a sequencer remote module in SFP so it can generate midi machine control commands to drive the helper app.
I may have overlooked something as I didn't spent more than 10 minutes on the idea, but it maybe useful as food for thought
At least it's the only way I could imagine without any SFP modifications.
A proper software interface would of course be better, but this isn't exactly the stuff supposed to wash a lot of cash into CWA's wallet - they have to focus their resources, so it's understandable not all technically fascinating things can be implemented
cheers, tom

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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:46 am
by Counterparts

> astroman wrote:
> ... and there's no common midi ground.

Not quite sure what you mean there..? MIDI is a pretty bog-standard serial protocol, which is the same for any system/device.
(I probably haven't understood what you meant exactly...)
Royston

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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:17 am
by astroman
I meant the driver implementation, which is OS and CPU specific - you cannot use a Windows version on a Mac or *uxish OS, it's a dedicated implementation each time.
cheers, Tom

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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:25 pm
by Casper
Hey Tom , isn't the mididrone module recording midi ?
Casper

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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:40 pm
by at0m
Making a MIDI sequencer for Scope is very possible. Could you give some idea's on why someone would use the Scope MIDI sequencer instead of Cubase/Logic/... ? The problem we're facing is primarily the interface, GUI's and windows are much easier to arrange in native software.

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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:39 pm
by Lima
Yes At0m, you're right.
But I think that from the musician point of view, to have all the tools in one single enviroment could be more confortable.
(less things to learn, same windows and less menùs makes making music less frustrating etc..)
Another thing is that cubase,nuendo etc.. give you a lot of redundant things (I mean the effects, the mixers and the synthesizers) wich aleady come (and some better ones) with our board. So this solution to have a sequencer (and maybe a multitrack? ) can be cheaper and have its advantages in my opinion.

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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:24 am
by astroman

> On 2005-08-05 16:25, Casper wrote:
> Hey Tom , isn't the mididrone module recording midi ?

probably it is, as a view into the .dsp and .dll folder revealed... even a 'read midi file' is there, obviously not unintended
I admit my statement above was a bit far reaching - extrapolating from the pure non-existence of midi IO stuff in any device, not to mention I don't have SDK...
of course one wouldn't expect a reinvented version of Logic, but to have the midi notes available (parallel to a VDAT track) would be more than just a gimmick.
I can't stand Logic from it's way of operation (better I'm completely unable to follow it's internal logic), but I cannot deny it's effectiveness for rearranging and tweaking a part here or there, which requires midi notes.
cheers, tom

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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:06 am
by at0m
Exactly. Just imagine how one would do a most simple thing like select a group of notes (click in empty area, draw over the choosen notes) and then drag them horizontally (time) or vertically (pitch) in the sequencer in SFP. And how about quantizing to audio events, grooves, built-in MIDI effects like arpeggiators etc?
We have step sequencers with in SFP too, so I guess a simple 1/16th steps sequencer wouldn't bring us much progress, cos that can be done in modular. So what's missing to make an SFP MIDI sequencer a killer tool? All idea's are welcome

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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:19 am
by Casper
Well, I got stuck on the midi2control value module. I got it to send a note on message, and a note off message. But there's always a catch. When I tried to make a switch so it swithes between the on/off state it keeps outputting double things. Then I came up with this merging solution with 2 midi2controlvalue modules. But in this case if one keep repeating the same notenumber. It only outputs the first and then stops until a different note is inputted.
Hope I'm making some sense here.
It realy is a silly module that midicontrol2number.
Then there is this difference in midiimplementation. Cubase 144 /128 on/off, and my roland keybord e.g. 144 /144-0 on/off.
I don't know what LogicAudio realy outputs.
Maybe someone could post it here. (The status byte for noteon , and note off in logicaudio)
Casper

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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:02 am
by Casper
At0m , haven't you got my PM ? You know something about other modules that build a message ?;)
Casper

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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:17 pm
by dawman
I love this forum. I learn something every time someone responds to my posting. However it seems like my in the box idea will never bloom, so I will still use my trusty ol' Yamaha QX1. I've used this MIDI sequencer for 21 years! Not once has it crashed. Once it stopped working, to my dismay, I found it was the power cord. I guess after 21 years it needed mending. I hold on to my hardware even after it dies. But the only hardware that died on me was my tube pre on my leslie. This is the kind of stability that us live players must have. Right now another GUI/Host computer would complicate my feeble understanding of computers. GS3/SCOPE will have me tweaked for quite a while. Guess it's back to my roots again.
Thank You Gentlemen,
_________________
Jimmy V.

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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:46 am
by Casper
I know what you mean about holding on to your hardware:)
I still got my roland mc-505 but I just can't sell it. Maybe if I'd made a mc505 clone on scope I could sell it.
Anyhow , sorry we couldn't create a sequencer for ya. Maybe in time...
Casper

#### Re:

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:43 am
by lagoausente

> at0m wrote:Making a MIDI sequencer for Scope is very possible. Could you give some idea's on why someone would use the Scope MIDI sequencer instead of Cubase/Logic/... ? The problem we're facing is primarily the interface, GUI's and windows are much easier to arrange in native software.

Yes, I can, native midi timing is not accurate at all, a sigle device like VDAT that could record midi with the same accuracy as audio would have two great advantages:
-Midi need very low hdd space, so it should be better then record all instruments audio outputs.
- If you need to edit the notes, could send or re-record to Cubase.
- Could use any of the internal clocks or Asio system protocol or just sending SMPTE from sequencer so the SFP midi recorder just should need to use that accuracy clock to make a good "timestamp", then save the data to a file like VDAT.

#### Re: Simple 8 track sequencer

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:49 pm
by dante
The real problem about XITE for live work as I see it is you still need to drag a PC around. You dont need a GUI or a PC to run a Yamaha QX1. But the QX1 is not rack mount, nor are most hardware MIDI sequencers (except some wierd doepffer stuff).
For rehearsals, only needing playback I used to create backing tracks on DAW at home, burn to CD then take 1 rack to rehearsal which contained mixer, preamp and rack mount CD player (with remote control). Then can also record rehearsal onto the cassette.
Rack mount CD players are good for this sort of thing. I never liked taking desktop stuff to rehearsals, just rack

  Tascam Rack Mount CD
  tascam_cd_a500.jpg (138.17 KiB) Viewed 4280 times

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