## Dante I/O device

Device/Module Wishlist

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=37316

#### Dante I/O device

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:08 am
by Bud Weiser
I´d wish we could get Dante I/O Scope device modules driving XTDM port to use a D-Sub25-to-RJ45 adapter-cable into a Dante network.
AFAIK, XTDM is prepared for digital audio transfers,- possibly Sync and MIDI too (?).
Let´s discuss.
Bud

#### Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:14 am
by yayajohn

  peaceful.gif (18.27 KiB) Viewed 732 times

#### Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:09 pm
by valis
I doubt Dante connectivity is enough for Sonic|Core to take on creating their own converter box, but there are Dante devices out there that will convert to ADAT and AES etc. In fact I think there's even an RME that supports Dante now?

#### Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:33 pm
by scary808
I've been dreaming of similar I/O arrangements. Could an AVB connectivity scenario work with the Scope platform?
Is XITE the end of the line for Scope?

#### Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:04 pm
by valis
The last question is up to Holger, but I don't see that as a foregone conclusion.
What I do see is that niche hardware addons are unlikely, but perhaps a 3rd party might have the technical chops to take on the task and work with the schematics from SonicCore? Boutique hardware (think: Innerclock systems and black lion etc) companies have often entered the 'gap' that is left by standards and smaller entities like S|C.

#### MADI |Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:35 am
by Spielraum
i wanted to get a CW MADI adapter, but the performance requirements scared me. i had a little conversation with Frank at the time.
DANTE could also assume too much performance.

  MADI Interface (optical)-003.jpg (198.58 KiB) Viewed 675 times

#### Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:37 am
by Bud Weiser

> valis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:09 pm I doubt Dante connectivity is enough for Sonic|Core to take on creating their own converter box, but there are Dante devices out there that will convert to ADAT and AES etc. In fact I think there's even an RME that supports Dante now?

Yes, I investigated in 3rd party hardware and recognized, the very affordable tools in a pricerange between 200 - 400.- $ / EUR are all 2 channels only,- and they´ll occupy the AES/EBU or 1 ADAT port.
Given the fact, STDM is able to transmit and receive digital audio and MIDI,- which was info I got from Holger when discussing the J.B. Solaris 1HU expander,- I thought about a multichannel solution,- maybe 8 channels of audio and MIDI.
I got the info according to the STDM port at the time when I hoped this Solaris -"blackbox" unit would become a full Solaris w/o displays and haptics except the volume knob and would connect to XITE via STDM port to be controllable by a VSTplugin and/or Scope GUI device alternately,- which never happened.
But,- I now imagine, the XITE STDM port isn´t a dead D-Sub25 port at all,- it just only needs the desired Scope DSP modules to become an active I/O port,- and as a 2nd step needed something to plug in.
I can dream,- but the best device would be an adapter device w/ male D-Sub25 and a female RJ45 to plug in a standard network cable of desired length.
It might need some additional controller electronics inside this adapter,- but such stuff is miniaturized in these days when I look at devices like this https://www.thomannmusic.com/dante_avio ... m?reload=1.
Now, when you imagine a similar tool w/o breakout cables,- just only the jacks.
RME and Dante is a different story.
These are 64ch I/O Dante devices w/ MADI in addition (another 64ch. I/O) and USB3 and unbal. analog stereo DA out/headphones out.
You can use w/Dante only and w/ BNC as wordclock,- or Dante and MADI (via BNC) together and w/o wordclock, or as USB3 audio interface or as standalone DAnte to MADI converter.
That´s too much functionality when you don´t run large PA systems or installations in theaters or whatever environments.
And it´s expensive.
The Focusrite Red interfaces are also very expensive because they are ... well,- complete interfaces,-
something the XITE-1 already IS.
I guess, for XITE-1, the main work would be the software transforming physical STDM into an active port,- and the small I/O device.
Install DANTE Virtual soundcard and/or DANTE Controller and rtpMIDI (or CopperLAN,- which unfortunately isn´t updated since years now) on your computer and it should work when being connected to a ethernet switch (or router).
Bud

#### Re: MADI |Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:50 am
by Bud Weiser

> Spielraum wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:35 am i wanted to get a CW MADI adapter, but the performance requirements scared me. i had a little conversation with Frank at the time.
> DANTE could also assume too much performance.

You have too many channels in mind IMO.
I´m thinking about project studio and live performance.
I´d still use my A16U converter via Z-Link to connect my keys, use the ADAT ports for "slave" computers running SCOPE PCI and native software, use STM mixers and SCOPE fx, run 8 busses from STM mixer to Dante "destination" DSP module in Scope environment.
Dante "Source" DSP module would be for what comes back,- monitor mix from PA or control room in a studio, click, backing tracks etc.
Ice on the cake would be XITE-1 physical MIDI I/O mirrored and over LAN in addition.
Can you elaborate a bit more about these "performance requirements you´re aware of ?
Bud

#### Re: MADI |Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:06 am
by Spielraum

> Bud Weiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:50 am Can you elaborate a bit more about these "performance requirements you´re aware of ?

the usual suffering, "dsp overflow", "sate connections" for whatever reason,
in addition, no concrete error description to really start at the crucial point.
conclusion: sometimes scope is only stable as a "small" sound card, which makes me a bit sad

#### Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:15 am
by valis

> Bud Weiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:37 am

> > valis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:09 pm I doubt Dante connectivity is enough for Sonic|Core to take on creating their own converter box, but there are Dante devices out there that will convert to ADAT and AES etc. In fact I think there's even an RME that supports Dante now?

> Yes, I investigated in 3rd party hardware and recognized, the very affordable tools in a pricerange between 200 - 400.- $ / EUR are all 2 channels only,- and they´ll occupy the AES/EBU or 1 ADAT port.

I was thinking more like this:
https://www.ferrofish.com/product/verto-32/
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... erter.html
I did remember correctly that RME has a Dante interface now, but it looks like it's ONLY Dante:
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/products ... _dante.php
Audinate is the company that promotes Dante, you can filter this page by the "I/O Interfaces" dropdown top right, but it's still going to give 40 something pages of results that are primary broadcast (Digital Video) oriented so it's a lot to wade through:
https://www.audinate.com/products/dante-enabled/

#### Re: MADI |Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:23 am
by Bud Weiser

> Spielraum wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:06 am
> the usual suffering, "dsp overflow", "sate connections" for whatever reason,
> in addition, no concrete error description to really start at the crucial point.
> conclusion: sometimes scope is only stable as a "small" sound card, which makes me a bit sad

That´s why I use XITE-1 and PCI cards standalone and not as a soundcard at all anymore.
And this is also the reason why I´m interested in a network across several rooms,- audio and MIDI over IP.
Bud

#### Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:47 am
by Bud Weiser

> valis wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:15 am
> I was thinking more like this:
> https://www.ferrofish.com/product/verto-32/
> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... erter.html

I´ve seen that too,- but my "idea" is using the XITE-1 XTDM port,- which for sure would be much cheaper.
It was designed to cascade XITE boxes, so it should do most of what´s needed except the I/O modules and hardware breakout are missing.
8 channels of digital audio and a MIDI bus over IP would be satifying for me.
That should not bring a XITE-1 on it´s knees when running a STM24/48X or 48/96X, a few FX in FX-rack and some SCOPE synths,- all standalone or w/ up to 4 ASIO-Out channels for some VSTis in addition which I´d run from a Lenovo workstation laptop which also runs SCOPE.

> valis wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:15 am I did remember correctly that RME has a Dante interface now, but it looks like it's ONLY Dante:
> https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/products ... _dante.php

Wrong,- it´s what I said in former post,-
Connectivity & Features
• 256 Channels: 128 in / 128 out
• 64 Channels Dante / 64 Channels MADI
• 2 x Gigabit Ethernet (802.3 compliant)
• 1 x MADI I/O coaxial I/0
• Headphone Output
• Wordclock I/0
• USB 3
• Bus-powered
• TotalMix FX
When you decide for DANTE operation only, BNC wordclock I/Os are active.
When you decide for 128 channels I/O, Dante AND Madi,- no BNC wordclock ... and so on.

> valis wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:15 am Audinate is the company that promotes Dante, you can filter this page by the "I/O Interfaces" dropdown top right, but it's still going to give 40 something pages of results that are primary broadcast (Digital Video) oriented so it's a lot to wade through:
> https://www.audinate.com/products/dante-enabled/

Yeah, I gave up on this yesterday too.
It´s very obvious it was designed for broadcast and video until large studios recognized possibilities, PA & Light companies too.
Focusrite offers a 8-channel device https://www.thomannmusic.com/focusrite_red_8_line.htm ...
But we don´t need because it´s a fully fledged interface which XITE-1 owners already own.
It´s all about the XITE-1 connectivity,- but that´s possibly only me.
Bud

#### Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:40 am
by valis
The focusrite is considerably higher than the Ferrofish, and also a full soundcard.
And yes, i understood XTDM carries additional data compared to ADAT <> Ethernet, just giving options. I got the ferrofish information from one of their emails in the last 6 months, wasn't sure if you were aware of its existence. It is NOT a soundcard, simply a conversion device that can slave to ADAT or wordlock.

#### Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:57 am
by Bud Weiser

> valis wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:40 am The focusrite is considerably higher than the Ferrofish, and also a full soundcard.

yep !

> valis wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:40 am I got the ferrofish information from one of their emails in the last 6 months, wasn't sure if you were aware of its existence. It is NOT a soundcard, simply a conversion device that can slave to ADAT or wordlock.

Found it yesterday when doin´ the search in Audinate Dante enabled products.
At a 1st glance, it was attractive,- but there´s the need of 4 (4x8 channels of) ADAT I/Os for 32 channels, which XITE-1 doesn´t offer.
So, for getting half channel count only and occupying XITE´s ADAT ports, I don´t want to make such investment.
I believe, when XTDM expansion port became active, we don´t even need a true format conversion at all.
The audio stream should be 1s and 0s down the line and when synchronization and signal-level conversion is right, it should work when running into a tiny RJ45 connector box or adapter plug,- depending on where the additional tiny electronics fit best.
Dante is all in all AES67, a protocol being provided thru Dante Virtual Soundcard and Dante Controller.
But in Scope environment, it needs a Dante-Source and Dante-Destination module where users are able to select desired track count ike we can do in Z-Link, ADAT and ASIO I/O modules,- up to 8, possibly even more (up to 16 ?) tracks when loading more of these Source/Destination modules.
I´m pretty sure almost every Dante compatible product out there is more complex than what we´d need,- except the Dante AVIO AES3 IO Adapter 2x2 i linked in former post.
But it´s 2 channels I/O only and we have 1 AES3 I/O in XITE-1 only,- which as an input is currently necessary for sync from my masterclock when running XITE-1 as a slave,-last but not least because BNC wordclock sync doesn´t work correctly w/ XITE-1 and Scope v7 (x64).
Bud

#### XTDM Specs |Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:16 am
by Spielraum
has holger released the XTDM protocol somewhere so that DIY fans/solder artists can try it?
i still wish for a CV extension...
if the XTDM specifications remain secret, nobody will be curious...
...and maybe the interface is not connected at all?

#### Re: XTDM Specs |Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:03 am
by Bud Weiser

> Spielraum wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:16 am has holger released the XTDM protocol somewhere so that DIY fans/solder artists can try it?

No.

> Spielraum wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:16 am if the XTDM specifications remain secret, nobody will be curious...
> ...and maybe the interface is not connected at all?

maybe ...
Bud
Edit:
I wonder whether Creamware STDM and S|C XTDM have features in common or not,- possibly might be the same (identical ?).
Cascade PCI cards or cascade XITEes,- where´s the difference?
I investigated for the term "STDM" and have found this,-
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/differenc ... tical-tdm/
I´d really like to see a pinout diagram of the STDM for PCI and XTDM for XITE w/ some explanation about which data is transmitted and received.

#### Re: XTDM Specs |Re: Dante I/O device

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:16 am
by Spielraum

> Bud Weiser wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:03 am I investigated for the term "STDM" and have found this,-
> https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/differenc ... tical-tdm/

i can't find any reference to Scope, Pulsar or Sonic Core,
i'm cautious as to whether S|C hardware interfaces are really being discussed
...anyway thanks for the research