## Changing Polyphony With MIDI CC's

Scope and XITE Development

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=19293

####

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:16 pm
by dawman
I just love that little Saturn dev. 4 it has a good sound, and it's DSP usage is light, but you can call up presets with polyphony settings that vary from patch to patch. This is a great forgotten feature, as during a live gig I could control my DSP overhead. Like having 0 voices to go to when not in use. I have found that Saturn makes nice OBX style pads with the filter switch, and it has nice little built in FX also. This is a great little, well thought out device IMHO.
Since I am going to purchase a few 15 DSP cards, that qualifies me 4 SDK I believe, and I am hoping I can customise my set up 4 live performance more. I am also going to be using modular 4 sure. Can I add features like this with the SDK? I know that most developement is more 4 recording with SFP, but I am the posterboy 4 live performance, and these little tricks would be great 4 me. Plus using 3 x 15 DSP cards will allow me alot of room to use such devices in a standby mode while using the FAT BASTARDS I plan on creating.
So could I create a device that can 0 out my synths while not in use? I know I can do it in the live bar, but I cannot leave my keys to go playing on the LCD's. I simply hope to create something to use from my controller via CC's.

####

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:39 pm
by johnbowen
Jimmy,
The only structure that allows this is the older style preset list. When the preset list object was re-designed, this feature to assign voices dynamically was removed (probably because the DSP re-allocation which needs to occur when you change voice count requires the DSP to be reloaded, which can take up a lot more time than would be desired between preset changes).
However, the older style list is available, and could be installed in a device....but there are other 'problems' with this list, mostly in that it stores every single parameter of every object inside, which simply means the preset list becomes quite large (as large as the original device, in my experience). Also, this list data is stored with the synth device, not as a separate object like the new style lists, so your synth ends up being quite 'bloated', and therefore also takes a lot longer to load into a project. Also, each individual preset calls up and changes many more parameters, so changing from one preset to the next just takes longer anyway, not including if you change polyphony for the preset.
I agree, it was one of the features I really liked about the old preset list, but the trade-offs of not using the new list for the old aren't really worth it, in my estimation.
Still, it's too bad the new list didn't include the possibility - you certainly don't have to use that function if you don't want delays from voice reassignment.
cheers,
john b.

####

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:52 am
by spacef
One version of SDX synh allowed this (voice in presets, new style presets) I removed it for several reasons, and because of user requests.
It can be annoying when browsing through presets, because polyphony changes make loading time longer. it can be unsecure if you already have a fully loaded project. poly on preset might cause dsp overloads etc.
however, it can be an option on polyphonic device, having voice parameters to load or not. HAving voice controllable by midi CC just need a control, not preset parameters.it is one of the options i intend to put in next revisions.
best
mehdi

####

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:10 am
by johnbowen
Ah, Mehdi's correct! There is a simple way - you attach a parameter (knob or slider, etc.) to the voice count module inside. Hmmmm, Mehdi, since this would be the same as the registered cwVoice parameter, I wonder if a user changes this, if it gets updated in the Project display window? And if it doesn't is there any negative result?
This could be just another parameter like anything else, so could be stored in a preset. I'll have to try it to see if there's any negative issues with the system management software.
JB

####

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:22 am
by spacef
you can do a "bypass parameter" switch on the surface of the device: it remotes a switch with two parameters : the first one is not in preset (not even in the Tree), only the second one is stored with every preset. the switch button itself is not stored in presets.
by parameter, think "control" not module pad.
I used this on all my devs "tempo preset bypass" switch and in Echo35 "bypass pitch mod load on/off" parameters (go have a look at the manuals or at the demo to see how it works in real situations).
In one word, you need two knobs that are connected to a switch that goes to the relevant module pad. only one of each is in presets, and the other is not.
For midi cc, i guess it should be the same as for echo tempo parameters (ie, the displays are, or are not, registered in the tree).
You shouldn't need to put the voice in the list, just that single control that allows to change poly: it will recall voice only if the user has pressed the "yes i want to recall polyphony" switch.
The only problem i see, is that a knob can be sensitive and mismanipulation can have the user go from 1 to 16 voices in a milisecond without the possibility to think/understand what happened in case of crash/dsp overload. But that's the user's problem .
Myself I prefer typing a value: it can be dangerous if someone types a val > 16 or double clic in it (make poly 2,4 millions!) but at least it is nice in live too (you have to be fast with mouse and keyboard and have good eyes, but that's doable between 2 songs).
I hope i explain clearly. It is the only (and best) technique I know : i would use it on many parameters if it didn't require switches and surface buttons to load on/off presets.
I guess you will figure out quite easily anyway, young padawan ( )
good luck

####

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:48 am
by johnbowen
Ah, it seems to work fine with no problems (I'm unable to test XTC mode at the moment).
Great - thanks, Mehdi! Sometimes the simplest things are overlooked (and also there's always more to learn!).

####

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:52 am
by johnbowen
Ha, I was typing the last message at the same time you were posting! So I just read your longer response.
Yes, I also used this technique in the RD Drum and Q-Wave (with double sets of parameter pads, some for preset or not), so I know it quite well, and the switch idea was just what I was thinking also!
cheers,
john

####

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:43 am
by Shayne White
Yeah, all you need to do is to store the DynVoicesofParent pad in a preset or attach it to a knob or slider. It can then have a CC assigned and stored in a preset.
You could also include an on/off switch in the connection between the knob and the DynVoices module if you wanted to "shut off" the voices control with presets. It could get really fancy...
Shayne

####

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:17 pm
by dawman
This Is Excellant News Gentlemen,
I love efficiency on multiple levels. To see the Gods dissussing, and debating this in a thread of mine is quite an honor. I am not worthy. But will accept any tips I can get, as I will be getting SDK very soon, and really will become a ballbuster then. This is the type of stuff that could draw live players into our ranks. Stability, Customisation, Support, Sound quality, and a debate forum unlike any others. With the cards pricing at an alltime low, plus having purchased an ASB, then saying hey I want it all, live guys could flock here by scores if properly promoted. This I shall do 4 U. Just keep the hits coming, and I will assure you that they will hear this great platform in record numbers, as I will be performing nightly at a brand new giant sized dance club. Even silly girls always ask whats that real neat swishy sound you got, well baby it's like this, then I disappear. Just kidding. I plan on wearing my blackand green Creamware shirt, and pushing this as much as I can, 4 we need new children. And live shows need SFP. I think you all can agree with me on the topic of rallying the troops, when I get on to something, I don't let go very easily.
I'm Afraid, All We Have Done Is To Awaken A Sleeping Giant And Fill Him With A Modular Resolve,

####

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:31 pm
by johnbowen

> On 2006-06-18 10:43, Shayne White wrote:
> You could also include an on/off switch in the connection between the knob and the DynVoices module if you wanted to "shut off" the voices control with presets. It could get really fancy...

Yes, this is what Mehdi said about using the Bypass switch. I could even see adding an additional non-programmable switch for the Bypass switch (and make the Bypass programmable)! That way, you could program whether or not the Bypass is active (if you wanted to have the presets recall voice count sometimes and not others).
And then, of course, you could have a bypass for the bypass for the bypass switch, etc., et.

####

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:34 pm
by dawman
Like Film Producers,
I was in film class, and Theory composition in '74 at University Of Miami. We had Jerry Coker, and G.Mulligan, Vince Maggio Lawrence, as artists in residence. These guys were so down 2 earth and real. Then came the film classes with all the suck asses. The producer had an assistant producer, and there was the assistant to the assistant, etc.,etc. ( mostly coffee runs) At any rate I am anxious to see what comes of this stuff. I can always learn SDK and do these things myself right. That'll be the day. I sent mt first email last summer, and now I want to become a developer 4 SFP?
Well a man's gotta know his limitations I guess. I am so impatient, this could tame me 4 a while, and give you guys a break on the ball busting maybe.
Thank You Mr.John Bowen,SpaceF, and Shayne White,
Jimmy V.
-------------------------------
P.S. Wasn't I just commenting on suck asses?

####

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:24 am
by Shroomz~>

> On 2006-06-18 11:34, stardust wrote:
> thanks gentlemen.
> I learned something.

Me too, thanks.

####

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:47 pm
by Shayne White
Yes, the SDK is pretty powerful in its features. I'm just sad that we're still using the same sound algorithms from five years ago. If we had access to better-sounding oscillators and filters, we could continue to innovate in synth design with better sounds under the hood. As it is, I don't use the old sound sources much anymore when I'm making music. I stick to CW's newer synths and the CEM components in Solaris mostly. So I don't even use the synths I made myself in the SDK much!
Shayne
_________________
Melodious Synth Radio
http://www.melodious-synth.com

####

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:58 pm
by Shroomz~>
Shayne, could you list the synths that use new OSC & Filter algos?
Sorry to be so blunt, but I'm just not sure which synths use new (unavailable) SDK building blocks & which ones don't. (probably haven't looked deeply enough)

####

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:25 pm
by garyb
John B, did you use new atoms for the SEM filter?(if it's not impolite to ask...)
you know, i'm guessing that at some point all the good filters will be described and a filter(osc, whatever)becomes just a filter. at some point, diminishing returns must come from redesigning things(round IS the best wheel shape after all!). some where it comes down to elegant use of what is there....
i'm not arguing against you Shane, just thinking about "progress"....new things ARE fun, of course.

####

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:39 pm
by johnbowen
Gary,
You mean the CEM filter probably? This is the same filter I've had since the Pro One days (some years ago), and it also appears in my Prophet Plus. Any new algorithms developed since then are not available to anyone but Creamware itself, as far as I know.

####

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:45 pm
by garyb
thanks John!
of course i meant CEM
thanks for the OT slack...

####

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:01 pm
by dawman
GaryB has commited the Fruedian Slip. He was thinking of CEM but the Oberheim SEM came out instead.