## The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Scope and XITE Development

Original topic on PlanetZ: https://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?t=33674

#### The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:20 am
by tlaskows
Does it run on PCI cards. I am interested in playing around with it, but no Xite here...
Thanks,
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:13 am
by petal
If I'm informed correctly the SDK 6 isn't finished yet. All developers use version 5 or even version 4 which is supposed to be more stable. I believe both version 4 and 5 works on PCI.

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:28 am
by jhulk
sdk6 does work on the pci cards
i have it installed but we use sdk5.1 beta as its more stable all the new stuff in bc modular is done on 5.1
sdk is so that because it uses the juce framework make it crossplatform and why a lot of developers are using it
wusik has been porting there stuff so that it made there synths mac compatible
there is a hell of a lot of developement using the sdk and creating .dll files scope sync being the most advanced

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:30 am
by jhulk
you need a 15/14 dsp card to use it wont work on any other type card even if you have 3 6dsp cards it wont work

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:58 am
by tlaskows
I have 45 DSPs...
What are the main improvements in v6?
Thanks,
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:05 am
by tlaskows
I read on Sonic Core's site that you cannot develop your own modules with 6, can you with 5.1?
Thanks,
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:25 am
by ronnie

> jhulk wrote:you need a 15/14 dsp card to use it wont work on any other type card even if you have 3 6dsp cards it wont work

I hope that's only for the SDK and not SCOPE 6!

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:35 am
by jhulk
you can develope your own modules in sdk6 as the guisdk is for sdk6 but once you have created the dspatom as a .dll file you can compile it and save to 5.1 module where you can add it in sdk5.1 and use it
scope6 will be for any card its the making of custom atoms as .dll files and the sdk you need a 14/15 card for
there is a wiki for sdk users once you get it ask wills to join it it has a lot of information and what dspatoms do and there functions have been written into the wiki

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:41 am
by tlaskows
Awesome! I'm happy that it works with the good ol' PCI cards. Most companies drop old hardware like it's hot. lol.
If I get an SDK 6 license, do I need to buy a separate 5.1 license as well?
Thanks,
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:52 am
by w_ellis
I wouldn't recommend using the SDK6 except for academic interest. There's some showstopping bugs and very limited functionality. There's not really much you can't do with SDK5.1, although if you have PCI cards, you might want to start with SDK4, as it's more stable and the only limitations are that it won't run on 64bit or with Xite-1.
The GUI SDK is effectively just an update to the older ScopeFX library, which allows you to build PC-based functionality that can communicate with the Scope system, including GUIs. However, there are also some showstopping bugs with that too, hence us using the older version for ScopeSync. The ScopeFX library also has some bugs, but they're minor in comparison.
We've documented quite a few of these things on the SDK Wiki that jhulk mentioned above. Just give me a shout once you have a licence and I can set you up with a login.
P.S. ScopeSync is open source, so you can check out our use of the ScopeFX library here: https://github.com/bcmodular/scopesync . Progress has slowed a little recently, as I just became a father this week! Very close to getting the OSC-based version finished though...

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:01 pm
by tlaskows
Congrats on becoming a father!
I guess I'll go with your recommendations and stick with SDK 5.1. I know some (not much) DSP stuff. I have a book on it and all, but I don't remember finishing reading it as it was getting pretty deep. I'm currently only working only a few hours a week so I have a lot of free time to read/learn/experiment.
Thanks!
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:11 pm
by w_ellis
Without wishing to be accused of heresy, if you just want to learn about audio development, you might find Max/MSP more fun
The Scope SDK is an amazing achievement and you can do some great things with it, but it's not the easiest to work with. You can give yourself a head start by getting a better understanding of the core concepts, which something like Max/MSP helps a lot with.

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:26 pm
by tlaskows
But I want to improve my programming skills
I cannot justify the price of MAX which is like $400 which is probably around $550 CAD...
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:24 pm
by w_ellis
Scope SDK is not programming in the traditional sense, i.e. you drag and drop modules and create interfaces within the program. Writing ScopeFX modules that can then be used in the Scope SDK, like the ScopeSync DLL does involve coding in C++ and we're using the Juce framework to help with that.
I'd recommend having a play with the SDK and see how you get on. If you have a hankering to do some more "traditional" programming, there's always room to help contribute enhancements to ScopeSync

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:53 am
by tlaskows
I need to brush up on my C++ skills. Seems every job out there now is looking for a Rails programmer, but I have no web development experience at all. I'm waiting for Sonic Core to send me an invoice for the SDK. Never used JUCE before, could be good to have on my resume.
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:25 pm
by tlaskows
Got the SDK. Looks cool, but I think I will need to glance through the manual.
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:07 pm
by tlaskows
So, now I have a bit of an issue. I have the SDK 5.1, but I cannot write atoms! I need custom phase modulation oscillators as in the DX7. I'm sure I can find the patents with all the lookup tables, etc. I would like to implement a proper FM synth that uses next to no DSP. Wouldn't that be nice?
Which version of the SDK do I need?
Danke schön,
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:36 am
by tgstgs
you need a dongle from sc to write dsp atoms;
they are in asm so you need to have knowledge in the sharc architecture as well as xite and/or pci boards;
good vibes from vienna

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:06 am
by tlaskows
Assembly? Shouldn't be a problem. I know some x86 and PIC (yeah, I know it's a joke). I can learn the Shark architecture. I used to read datasheets all day long just for fun
How much is the dongle? I really want to write some custom code to learn and hopefully make some useful devices. I have too many spare time, that is a problem.
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:36 am
by jksuperstar
It's worth getting to know the available atoms, as they are very efficient, and they...work. There is a large number of both higher level modules and low level atoms readily available, and you very well could make a PM oscillator (like the casio-like ones in Modular IV) with them.
My understanding is the dongle is required since the atoms are encrypted for use on sonic|core boards.

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:58 am
by tlaskows
Okay, good point. I will play around with the SDK when I get a chance.
Thanks!
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:13 am
by tlaskows
I will experiment with it today and let you know if it's possible to do what I want to do...
I just finished reinstalling my music desktop. So all the plugins and SDK are gone gone gone...
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:16 am
by tlaskows
I really need help...
I installed the SDK and put in my key. I can drag and drop some stuff. But I cannot open the important stuff (DSP module list). This USED to work! What am I doing wrong? The basic modules are no help to me.
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:46 am
by tlaskows
Yessss! Checked my email archive of about 13,000 messages. I found the additional key to allow viewing the DSP module list.
Let me look around the 1000 modules now
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:20 am
by tlaskows
Well,
I looked at all the modules. And it won't work. I need a lookup table and just addition. Few lines of assembler code. I don't want to use analog style FM. It eats all my DSP.
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:23 am
by tlaskows
Anyone?
Does anybody knows a guy that knows a guy? I have a lot of free time on my hands. hmm...
Who do I talk to? Should I email S|C directly?
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:49 am
by tlaskows
I sent an email to Sonic Core. I hope they forgive me for my bad German. Last time I took German was like hmm 15 years ago. Forgot it all.
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:13 am
by w_ellis
Your best bet is to post a message on the BC Modular forum (http://bcmodular.co.uk/forum/), which Simon (sharc) and Roy Thinnes (cwmodular) frequent. There are some developer forums there, where we discuss device implementation etc.
Simon and I are both quite busy these days (Roy probably is too!), so please be patient

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:17 am
by tlaskows
Thanks!
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:06 am
by tgstgs
ive made a variable wavetable some time ago;
should be what youre looking for;
still you would need a dll to fill the array data sync;
inputs are
frequency put a sync frequ here
array data[512]
index from 0 to 511
output is the wave
good vibes

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#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:12 am
by tgstgs
if you put 2 or more dsp files on same dsp they share the dataarray;
means you just had to fill it once with different readouts;
for example:
if you fill with a sinus and the 2 dsp atoms are on same dsp;
you can have 2 or more sinuses output at different frequency at same time;
how much you can put on same dsp depends on the dsp used;
i do not remember atm how much are possible on old dsp
good vibes from vienna

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:54 am
by tlaskows
Hi,
Thanks for your input. But the table will not hold a wavetable. Just a lookup table, probably no more than 1024 bytes.
I really see no way making this work without having the magic dongle from Sonic Core. Any they're not getting back to me, maybe I sent it to the wrong email...
I have like at least 10 books on DSP that I got for a dollar each. Most of them start off with hardcore mathematical equations which are of no use. There are couple of good ones with examples.
Oh yes, I implemented a very simple synth in Java some 15 years ago. I think it took me about 3 days while doing QA and waiting for the test cases to complete. The oscillators are very simple, so they have aliasing, and the envelope is not a real ADSR envelope. There is no GUI.
Yes, it does make sound.
http://www.thomaslaskowski.com/?page_id=136
Greetings from Canada!
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:28 am
by tgstgs
well you can put in 512 values of 32 bit integer each;
more than 1024bytes
a wtbl is a lookuptbl;
as i said it is what you are asking for;

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:54 am
by tlaskows
not exactly... because I want floating point numbers in there and I need to do addition on them. How can I do that the easy way using just the stock SDK?
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:45 am
by tgstgs
float2int to the input and
int2float output vibes

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:30 pm
by jksuperstar
Why floating point anyways? 32bit integers have better resolution than 32bit floats.
You just have to be a little more careful with any gain structure you use on integers vs floats (if you use envelopes for interpolation/spline/smoothing/anti-aliasing).

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:32 pm
by tlaskows
It will make my life a lot easier. I want to use the original DX7 algorithms. And the lookup table uses really really low precision floating numbers... I want to sound like something made in the 80s and use little DSP.
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:33 pm
by tlaskows
Oh,
I also would like to create SID oscillators and filter (Did this in an FPGA a really long time ago) But the filter had to be done on a microcontroller.
Don't forget the good old AdLib. Some nice sounds...
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:34 pm
by jksuperstar
And tgstgs, this could be a very cool addition to the modules we have! The fact that loading multiple modules on the same DSP means you can not only get multiple voices from the same wavetable, but you can get granular behavior on the shorter wavetables.
Can you make a module to write to the wavetable? A sequencer can then control the loading of realtime audio into the wavetable.

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:19 am
by tgstgs
put a fader to sync in 0 for frequency
apply rangetext to the inputs 1 and 2
set 0 to index rangetext
set whatever value to assign to array[0];
set 1 to index rangtext
set value for array[1]
and so on;
no overflow errorcorrection (this would cost resources)
so never index below 0 or aboth 511 !!!!
this would write somewhere in the dsp memory!!!
you can do this per hand (manually)
but as these are sync inputs you can precalculate the table;
matlab excel or whatever;
and fill the array sync;
or for example a sync counter from 0 to 511 loop with a gate as starter;
and apply an audio outpad to the datain;
i was using 2 of them for smooth crossover switching of waveforms;
hope that helps vibes

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:59 am
by tlaskows
Hi,
Really appreciate your help in taking your time trying to give me tips on how to get it working
I will need to load up the SDK later and have a try.
Today is another busy day for me :/
Thanks!
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:11 am
by tlaskows
Hi guys,
I am just trying to make a basic project in the SDK. Oscillator hooked up to Pro Plate analog out. It is not making any sound! How does the SDK know which plate is on which card? I have 3 plates.
Thanks,
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:33 am
by garyb
the i/o are known in the same way as the i/o in Scope, afaik.

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:51 am
by tlaskows
Hmm, really odd.
My speakers are hooked up to the Pro plate for sure. I tried selecting the Z-Link plate and no sound either. I will play around. There are bunch of outputs there that are not relevant to my cards like Pulsar or something.
Thanks!
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:48 pm
by tlaskows
Got it to work! It's emitting a sound ahahahaha. I really really love it how it's realtime. You just connect stuff and you can hear the changes right away. No coding then compiling then testing the code like on an actual DSP.
The first updated Quick Start tutorial will be on www.scopesdk.com hopefully tomorrow.
Thanks guys,
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:45 pm
by tlaskows
The website needs registration now. I am still looking for a good WordPress theme. I was told by a guy that knows a guy that the first rule of Scope SDK is you don't talk about Scope SDK. There are some resources out there, but you won't be able to find them on Google. We don't want Universal Audio to catch up in about 15 to 20 years. They won't anyways, according to the experience from their forums. They have absolutely no interest in creating synthesizers. I will not give them any more money. Their plugins do sound fine. I don't know how close the EMT 250 or the 224 sounds to the originals, but they do sound very good indeed.
Making a sound come out of the speakers was easy, but to control the frequency of the oscillator seems to not be working at the time. I must play around with it some more. The MIDI is set the the right channel and the attributes/variables show that MIDI is being received, but all the output variables are not changing.
Cheers,
-Tom

#### Re: The big question, SDK 6 and PCI

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:04 am
by tlaskows
So,
I had a look at the ADSP-21065L user manual last night. It's very long, almost 800 pages. Most of the stuff I really care about is the op codes. It's not much different that a regular See Pee You, it just can do math a lot better/more efficiently. I skipped most of the sections like the serial ports and memory management. Anyways, no point looking at it for a long time. I'm pretty sure Scope development will not make you use assembler. C is a lot easier to write and will save you a lot of time. Oh, BTW. The chip can only address up to 128MB of external memory. So no need to cry over samplers on the PCI cards. I'm sure the new chip on the Xite-1 can address a lot more, but I don't know. I haven't read the manual for the new chip.
-Tom